Why can't Victorinox manage to make a sensible multi-tool nowadays?

[Simon_Templar]

I'm of the opinion that a corkscrew is more useful than the slippery backside phillips driver 

 

Maybe it's different in the U.S  <shudder>, but in 21th century Europe a corkscrew is still required to open any decent bottle of red wine. And quite honestly, what's more likely to happen? Finding a screw that needs tightening while being far away from a toolbox or being on a hike, a picnic, a party or some other social gathering where a bottle of red appears and no corkscrew is in sight?

I love Vic's inline Philips and the Cybertool driver, but if I am honest, I was not once in a situation where they really made a difference. Whenever I used them, I either had anticipated there was a screw to drive and could have also packed a screwdriver, or a toolbox was nearby. I didn't check the statistics, but I consider the chances of just finding a random loose screw in the wild AND having to tighten it slim.

And while we are at it, why bashing the poor backside tools? Ok, I am not using the hook either (except as a nail file on the Traveller Lite - superb!), but you cannot fit any great tools on the backside anyway.  So the alternative is just not having anything there. Granted, that would give the SAK a cleaner look, but that's really all; you wouldn't even save weight, as evidenced by the 93 mm SAKs. So I for one am just happy to take what I get.

[Rizio Il Ghiro]

Don’t forget the corkscrew is also great for opening stubborn jars too - a tip learnt here!

[fyrstormer]

Cyber tool L with plus scales. Separate pliers, like a little Knipex.

If you feel you can bypass specific driver bits: Ranger or Master Craftsman with plus scales, Rambler, and separate pliers. [Edit: Forget plus scales and choose the Manager instead of the Rambler for an off the shelf combination.]

Some of your criticisms of standard tools like the can opener and corkscrew are naive. Seemingly simple tools have multiple uses beyond their names. For instance, while I never use the CS for pulling corks, I like it for its additional capabilities and keep it close to hand.

Videos by Nikguyver and Felix Immler on YT show how to make the most of SAK tools.

I didn't criticize the can opener. 

I've had various multi-tools with corkscrews on them for decades. I have never once used them for anything -- not even for opening wine bottles, because Swiss Army knives don't have the lever that allows the cork to be removed without accidentally punching someone standing too close when the cork pops out. I'm not saying corkscrews can't be repurposed, but I have never come across a use for any corkscrew I've ever owned, besides actually opening a bottle of wine. And it's not for lack of creativity -- I'm an engineer and systems integrator, I'm very well versed in repurposing functional devices in unforeseen circumstances -- but I've simply never come across a problem that I looked at and thought "Aha, I could use a corkscrew to fix this." If I couldn't think of alternate uses, and there are videos specifically dedicated to the topic, then it's a safe bet casual users almost never think of alternate uses either. People who like the corkscrew have no shortage of models they could choose from, especially nowadays with the fold-out phillips screwdriver becoming less and less common in Victorinox's lineup.

That being said, I'll go look at the channels you recommended and see if any alternate uses for the corkscrew jump out at me.

[fyrstormer]

Maybe it's different in the U.S  <shudder>, but in 21th century Europe a corkscrew is still required to open any decent bottle of red wine. And quite honestly, what's more likely to happen? Finding a screw that needs tightening while being far away from a toolbox or being on a hike, a picnic, a party or some other social gathering where a bottle of red appears and no corkscrew is in sight?

Good wine here is still usually sold in bottles with corks, but it's increasingly common for good wine here to be sold in bottles with screw-tops, because y'know, people don't always finish a full bottle of alcohol in a single sitting. Even the $65/bottle Portugese Sandeman port that my girlfriend likes comes with a screw-top.

As for social gatherings, who brings a bottle of wine but doesn't bring a corkscrew to open it? That's just bad planning.

I love Vic's inline Philips and the Cybertool driver, but if I am honest, I was not once in a situation where they really made a difference. Whenever I used them, I either had anticipated there was a screw to drive and could have also packed a screwdriver, or a toolbox was nearby. I didn't check the statistics, but I consider the chances of just finding a random loose screw in the wild AND having to tighten it slim.

I have often carried a multitool with the express intention of using it for problems I anticipate encountering, so I don't have to carry the extra bulk of multiple dedicated tools. My dedicated tools stay in my toolchest unless I know my multi-tool will not be able to handle the job.

As for the slim chance of encountering a loose screw in the wild, all I can say is that European office chairs must be built to significantly higher standards if the screws never come loose.

And while we are at it, why bashing the poor backside tools? Ok, I am not using the hook either (except as a nail file on the Traveller Lite - superb!), but you cannot fit any great tools on the backside anyway.  So the alternative is just not having anything there. Granted, that would give the SAK a cleaner look, but that's really all; you wouldn't even save weight, as evidenced by the 93 mm SAKs. So I for one am just happy to take what I get.

Part of it comes from my professional mentality, which, as time goes on, is increasingly my all-the-time mentality. I don't just design and build things that do what they're supposed to do, I design and build things that don't do what they're not supposed to do. The products I make in my job are not consumer-grade trinkets that are unlikely to hurt anyone if they break due to user error.

[Don Pablo]

Good wine here is still usually sold in bottles with corks, but it's increasingly common for good wine here to be sold in bottles with screw-tops, because y'know, people don't always finish a full bottle of alcohol in a single sitting.

I've always just put the cork back on, about 25%-50% of the way into the bottle opening.

[fyrstormer]

I've always just put the cork back on, about 25%-50% of the way into the bottle opening.

That only works with bottles that don't have self-expanding corks. Anyway, screw-tops are easier, more secure, and don't require special tools. The only reason vintners still use corks is because it's an affectation of the wine-drinking experience for some people, not because it's actually superior in any way. Corks were effective for sealing wine bottles before mass production made it possible to produce bottles and caps with matching standardized threads, but you'll notice no other drink bottles bother with corks anymore -- there's a reason for that. It's such a niche use-case that carrying around a tool for that specific purpose, just in case I encounter a random bottle of unopened wine, is a waste of usable space. As time goes on I know fewer and fewer drinkers anyway -- for my part, alcohol stopped feeling good in my early 30s.

[Syncop8r]

I've always just put the cork back on, about 25%-50% of the way into the bottle opening.

Are you sure you're old enough to drink yet? 

[fyrstormer]

Moving along...

I've had an EvoGrip S54 sitting on my desk for the past week, while I mulled-over what to do with it; that's what prompted my initial rant in the first place. Tonight I gave up on finding a solution that didn't involve brute-force, and I took it apart and customized it.







Came out pretty well for my first attempt at SAK modding. I should make a spare.

I wish it had a bit driver, but at least it has both common types of screwdrivers, cutting tools for all common types of crafting materials, and a knife that won't accidentally close on my fingers. If I wanted to add a bit driver, I would have to figure out how to transplant one from a CyberTool, and I'm not willing to spend that much time and money on a custom build right now.

[Echotech]

Good job frystormer

[Don Pablo]

Are you sure you're old enough to drink yet? 

Since even before pre-pandemic times, 100 years ago.

[MichaelGT83]

I have never once used them for anything -- not even for opening wine bottles, because Swiss Army knives don't have the lever that allows the cork to be removed without accidentally punching someone standing too close when the cork pops out.

Whilst I don't drink wine, I've had to open the odd fancy bottle of beer with a SAK corkscrew, often when I didn't realise there was a cork, and I've never ended up with my arm flying off like that. Pull the cork out gently, twisting it back and forth slightly as you go, and bingo. A nice, gentle pop.

As for everything else, well, it'd all down to opinions, ain't it? I've barely ever needed to use a screwdriver, but I've opened the odd bottle and the corkscrew holds a mini driver for glasses repairs on the go. I've used to odd back scale tool to improvise things when needed as well. I'm sure Vic only work off what sells and any feedback, which will come from a wider range of people than the likes of us. Hence the expansion of the Classics available.

[Sawl Goodman]

I didn't criticize the can opener. 

I've had various multi-tools with corkscrews on them for decades. I have never once used them for anything -- not even for opening wine bottles, because Swiss Army knives don't have the lever that allows the cork to be removed without accidentally punching someone standing too close when the cork pops out. I'm not saying corkscrews can't be repurposed, but I have never come across a use for any corkscrew I've ever owned, besides actually opening a bottle of wine. And it's not for lack of creativity -- I'm an engineer and systems integrator, I'm very well versed in repurposing functional devices in unforeseen circumstances -- but I've simply never come across a problem that I looked at and thought "Aha, I could use a corkscrew to fix this." If I couldn't think of alternate uses, and there are videos specifically dedicated to the topic, then it's a safe bet casual users almost never think of alternate uses either. People who like the corkscrew have no shortage of models they could choose from, especially nowadays with the fold-out phillips screwdriver becoming less and less common in Victorinox's lineup.

That being said, I'll go look at the channels you recommended and see if any alternate uses for the corkscrew jump out at me.

Ahh, I reread your post with more care, and I’m sorry for calling you out wrongly on the can opener. It’s a common target, though! SAK can openers are my only can openers.

Do you know the tip of the Vic-type can opener is a competent 2-D #2 Phillips?

One of the reasons I suggested the Manager is that it includes an effective #0 to #2 Phillips. It can reach into recessed spaces the can opener tip can’t, effectively making a back side Phillips redundant. The only reason I like the back Phillips is that the knife feels better to hold than with the corkscrew.

When I’m faced with a problem needing a small tool to solve it, I first consider whether something on my SAK can do it. Once, I was faced with opening a cupboard door that had only the hole for a handle. The corkscrew was perfect for the job. Using the flat SD to pry the door open would’ve damaged the wood.

The CS also holds the mini SD. Not something I need as a SD often myself - it sees most use to clear blocked holes in irrigation spitters at work - it’s taken care of a screw that had fallen out of a party guest’s glasses.

[Sawl Goodman]

Moving along...

I've had an EvoGrip S54 sitting on my desk for the past week, while I mulled-over what to do with it; that's what prompted my initial rant in the first place. Tonight I gave up on finding a solution that didn't involve brute-force, and I took it apart and customized it.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Came out pretty well for my first attempt at SAK modding. I should make a spare.

I wish it had a bit driver, but at least it has both common types of screwdrivers, cutting tools for all common types of crafting materials, and a knife that won't accidentally close on my fingers. If I wanted to add a bit driver, I would have to figure out how to transplant one from a CyberTool, and I'm not willing to spend that much time and money on a custom build right now.

Nice job! 

[Storm]

Nice work on making what you were after fyrstormer 

[PitCarver]

Moving along...

I've had an EvoGrip S54 sitting on my desk for the past week, while I mulled-over what to do with it; that's what prompted my initial rant in the first place. Tonight I gave up on finding a solution that didn't involve brute-force, and I took it apart and customized it.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Came out pretty well for my first attempt at SAK modding. I should make a spare.

I wish it had a bit driver, but at least it has both common types of screwdrivers, cutting tools for all common types of crafting materials, and a knife that won't accidentally close on my fingers. If I wanted to add a bit driver, I would have to figure out how to transplant one from a CyberTool, and I'm not willing to spend that much time and money on a custom build right now.

I like what you did there.
I don't have the know-how to take one apart and to reassemble it, to my liking.
The only thing I've ever done was to replace a couple of blades on a MiniChamp.

[Rich_SD]

Maybe it's different in the U.S  <shudder>, but in 21th century Europe a corkscrew is still required to open any decent bottle of red wine. And quite honestly, what's more likely to happen? Finding a screw that needs tightening while being far away from a toolbox or being on a hike, a picnic, a party or some other social gathering where a bottle of red appears and no corkscrew is in sight?

I love Vic's inline Philips and the Cybertool driver, but if I am honest, I was not once in a situation where they really made a difference. Whenever I used them, I either had anticipated there was a screw to drive and could have also packed a screwdriver, or a toolbox was nearby. I didn't check the statistics, but I consider the chances of just finding a random loose screw in the wild AND having to tighten it slim.

As a wine drinker in the US, I can confirm that we still have corks on all but the cheap stuff.  That said, I have never encountered a bottle of wine without a good corkscrew nearby.  A good waiters corkscrew is more portable than most SAKs, and they work WAY better since they have a lever.  Also wine drinking is always planned, in a sense, since you have to buy/bring the bottle in the first place.

For me, encountering a screw that needs to be tightened or removed away from a toolbox is much more common.

That said, the great thing about the corkscrew vs screwdriver debate is that there are several SAK choices for people that prefer one or the other.  The same can't be said about can openers.  Other than a SAK for camping, I'll never need a can opener, but almost every medium sized SAK has one.  It's an annoying waste of space for me.

[Simon_Templar]

The products I make in my job are not consumer-grade trinkets that are unlikely to hurt anyone if they break due to user error.

...so you are making products that are likely to hurt someone If they break due to user error? I guess I prefer consumer-grade trinkets then, together with my tightly screwed European office chairs and my corked wine bottles...

[Altis]

For me, encountering a screw that needs to be tightened or removed away from a toolbox is much more common.

That said, the great thing about the corkscrew vs screwdriver debate is that there are several SAK choices for people that prefer one or the other.  The same can't be said about can openers.  Other than a SAK for camping, I'll never need a can opener, but almost every medium sized SAK has one.  It's an annoying waste of space for me.

I rarely need to open a can on the go, though I can see its merits as a "survival" or camping implement.

However, it's quite effective on Phillips screws, and is a smaller slotted screw driver, so I don't see it as a waste of space. It's also quite sharp, and you can file a hook blade into the rear side of it that's great for all kinds of cutting tasks. 

[fyrstormer]

...so you are making products that are likely to hurt someone If they break due to user error? I guess I prefer consumer-grade trinkets then, together with my tightly screwed European office chairs and my corked wine bottles...

That's why I get paid to make sure user error doesn't cause them to break. 

[fyrstormer]

As a wine drinker in the US, I can confirm that we still have corks on all but the cheap stuff.  That said, I have never encountered a bottle of wine without a good corkscrew nearby.  A good waiters corkscrew is more portable than most SAKs, and they work WAY better since they have a lever.  Also wine drinking is always planned, in a sense, since you have to buy/bring the bottle in the first place.

For me, encountering a screw that needs to be tightened or removed away from a toolbox is much more common.

That said, the great thing about the corkscrew vs screwdriver debate is that there are several SAK choices for people that prefer one or the other.  The same can't be said about can openers.  Other than a SAK for camping, I'll never need a can opener, but almost every medium sized SAK has one.  It's an annoying waste of space for me.

The 65-dollars-a-bottle Portuguese port wine my girlfriend likes has a screw cap. And while the can opener is rarely used, at least Victorinox saw fit to make it a multifunction tool that is also a screwdriver, so it's not a complete waste of space 364 days a year. Everything else you said I agree with. 

[fyrstormer]

Ahh, I reread your post with more care, and I’m sorry for calling you out wrongly on the can opener. It’s a common target, though! SAK can openers are my only can openers.

Do you know the tip of the Vic-type can opener is a competent 2-D #2 Phillips?

One of the reasons I suggested the Manager is that it includes an effective #0 to #2 Phillips. It can reach into recessed spaces the can opener tip can’t, effectively making a back side Phillips redundant. The only reason I like the back Phillips is that the knife feels better to hold than with the corkscrew.

When I’m faced with a problem needing a small tool to solve it, I first consider whether something on my SAK can do it. Once, I was faced with opening a cupboard door that had only the hole for a handle. The corkscrew was perfect for the job. Using the flat SD to pry the door open would’ve damaged the wood.

The CS also holds the mini SD. Not something I need as a SD often myself - it sees most use to clear blocked holes in irrigation spitters at work - it’s taken care of a screw that had fallen out of a party guest’s glasses.

I do actually have a Midnite Manager.  My first Swiss Army knife was a MiniChamp that my dad got me while he was on a business trip, back in the mid-90s, before the MiniChamp redesign that added the phillips-head screwdriver. When that little knife eventually wore out, I replaced it with a newer Midnite MiniChamp that had the phillips-head screwdriver, as well as replacing the tweezers (which never worked properly) and toothpick with a LED light and a pen. I removed the circuit board and soldered-in a brighter LED (Nichia DS 3mm, for anyone who knows about such things), and carried that for a few years. Eventually the extra tools that I never used (orange peeler, tiny useless 3cm ruler, and cuticle pusher -- who even does that?) started to bug me, and I replaced it with a slimmer Midnite Manager instead. I might've missed the second blade that the MiniChamp has, but in truth I never used the second blade.

[fyrstormer]

I like what you did there.
I don't have the know-how to take one apart and to reassemble it, to my liking.
The only thing I've ever done was to replace a couple of blades on a MiniChamp.

I just winged it, honestly. I've never done it before, but it wasn't complicated. I mean, it's just a stack of pieces of sheet-metal, held together by rivets. All you have to do is make sure the backsprings are matched to the correct tools. The most labor-intensive parts of the process were drilling-out the mushroomed ends of the rivets, washing all the individual parts with a toothbrush after disassembly, and filing-down the excess solder that I used to reattach the retaining rings onto the ends of the cut-down rivets. It was a process that involved careful attention, but no special knowledge. The reason I complained so much before giving up and doing it myself is because I had more than a decade of frustration on this topic to vent.

[Rich_SD]

The 65-dollars-a-bottle Portuguese port wine my girlfriend likes has a screw cap. And while the can opener is rarely used, at least Victorinox saw fit to make it a multifunction tool that is also a screwdriver, so it's not a complete waste of space 364 days a year. Everything else you said I agree with. 

Technically, a screwcap functions better than a cork.  I believe wineries still use corks for cultural reasons - most people associate screw caps with cheap wine.

[ElevenBlade]

Multi-tools in general are overkill for most people, who don't especially value having the ability to do things for themselves. But among the minority of people who carry multi-tools, the majority of them will not need gutting hooks or corkscrews. Everyone who uses tools needs screwdrivers, knives, and files from time to time, though.

Personally, the wood saw, bottle opener, can opener, and prybar would be rarely-used tools for me, but they wouldn't be never-used tools for me. The tools I listed as "useless" have never been used by me, or are so badly designed they can't serve their intended purposes, like the tiny nut wrench and the compass. I know there are people who do use those tools (at least the ones that are physically capable of working properly), and I'm not saying they shouldn't use them -- I'm saying I shouldn't have to buy a bunch of stuff I will never use or doesn't work properly, just to get the tools I do use.

Again, my tool list is based not solely on my personal preferences but also on years of looking at other people's used multi-tools -- not enthusiasts' multi-tools, not multi-tools owned by people who get joy from finding new ways to use each little component -- but multi-tools owned by normal people who just use their Swiss Army knives for their intended purposes. The tools I listed as "sensible" are the ones that are routinely worn-out or broken in used knife listings.

Of course, Victorinox could end this argument once and for all if they would allow people to order custom-specced tools, which would not be difficult since they're just stacked plates of metal in the first place, but we'll probably never see that, even for a premium price. They only deal in high-volume orders.

I agree that there are some incredibly narrow uses for some of the tools, like the nut wrench, but fortunately those tools are in niche models... For better or worse you can get one of these tools if you want, else you're stuck with an implement you don't want in a tool you otherwise do.

That said... I'm the guy that does not value doing things for myself. I'd much rather have someone who has much more expertise in fixing things do the job for me.  But I'm a Multitiool Tool. 

That's why, for me - Victorinox gets it right more frequently than Gerber or Leatherman.

I'd much rather have a single implement that can open a can, turn a 3mm flathead or #2 Philips screw.

I'm much more interested in being the hero at a fancy cookout than being able to repair my own washing machine when there's nobody watching. 

I don't own any pieces of metal that haven't been rounded off and filed down by someone else.

I'm not a technically savvy fellow, and the ability to fix things is not why I carry a multitiool.

It's the ability to... Eat something fresh and wholesome on the go without resorting to fast food....   Be a bit more neat and tidy when I need to render first aid...  Getting a more efficient burn out of my woodgas stove by cutting the wood into bits that fit just right...

It's a matter of what works for you, and what doesn't. 

Nowadays I carry a Gerber MP600 to work in my bag, because if I need it at all, it's because I need pliers.

As for my pockets, I always try to keep files out of them. 

[ElevenBlade]

Technically, a screwcap functions better than a cork.  I believe wineries still use corks for cultural reasons - most people associate screw caps with cheap wine.

Screw caps for wine... More properly known as the Stelven Closure is more expensive for the wine makers to produce. But perhaps it's more cost effective in an economy of scale. So perhaps it's more often seen with cheap wine. 

[fyrstormer]

Screw caps for wine... More properly known as the Stelven Closure is more expensive for the wine makers to produce. But perhaps it's more cost effective in an economy of scale. So perhaps it's more often seen with cheap wine. 

Vintners don't make their own bottles and corks anyway -- those are mass-produced nowadays. It's possible the equipment to crimp a screw-cap onto a bottle might be more expensive than the equipment to jam a cork into the neck of the bottle, but I have no way of knowing.

Anyway, mass production doesn't reduce the quality of products, consumerism does -- there's more money to be made selling a just-barely-good-enough product to the largest possible group of people. And now we've come full-circle back to my original complaint.

[Altis]

..... there's more money to be made selling a just-barely-good-enough product to the largest possible group of people....

Very well-said.

One of the most enticing aspects of Victorinox, for me personally, is that they are well-made to last, and in good working conditions, rather than the endless race to the bottom seen in so many products these days.

Hence I can forgive the lack of some configurations I'd like to see. 

[MacGyver]

Technically, a screwcap functions better than a cork.  I believe wineries still use corks for cultural reasons - most people associate screw caps with cheap wine.

Mate, no offense.... but you clearly have no idea of what you are talking about here.... If nothing else, the function of the cork it's not just to prevent the wine from leaking... But i'm nowhere near being an expert or even a wine drinker... If you want real experts info and opinion on the importance of the cork for a proper aged wine there are plenty of sites with lots of info. 
 

  The same can't be said about can openers.  Other than a SAK for camping, I'll never need a can opener, but almost every medium sized SAK has one.  It's an annoying waste of space for me.

About the can opener, i can honestly say that in over 35 years of SAK use i actually used the can opener to open an actual tin can once, yet the can opener as well as the bottom opener are two indispensable tools on any 84/91mm Sak i carry, for me.
I just don't look at them as something to open cans, or open cap bottles, but rather than a blank canvas tools with endless (possible) uses and utility.

But than again that's exactly how i see a SAK and it's "philosophy"...  For me there is nothing more boring than the concept of  "using a SAK tool for it's intended purpose"

I've said it before and i'll said it again: IMO a SAK it's never "the right/ideal tool" for anything (other than a pocket sized knife), it's the tool that you can carry in your pocket to help you in a pinch, and to do simple tasks while putting creativity and "out of the box" thinking in it's use. And in the most cases it will get the job done.
For a proper job, i'll always use proper dedicated tools, when ever they are available 

[MacGyver]

The 65-dollars-a-bottle Portuguese port wine my girlfriend likes has a screw cap. And while the can opener is rarely used, at least Victorinox saw fit to make it a multifunction tool that is also a screwdriver, so it's not a complete waste of space 364 days a year. Everything else you said I agree with. 

Seriously...?  Port wine...? 
You are comparing Port wine, which is a "digestive" liquorous (aka: sweet) kind of wine to a "table" top red/white wine for accompanying your meal. Two different concepts, two different kinds of wine.

[MacGyver]

That said... I'm the guy that does not value doing things for myself. I'd much rather have someone who has much more expertise in fixing things do the job for me.  But I'm a Multitiool Tool. 

I'm much more interested in being the hero at a fancy cookout than being able to repair my own washing machine when there's nobody watching. 

...the ability to fix things is not why I carry a multitiool.

This goes to show how everyone is different, and have different needs/uses even if we share similar interests/passions, in this case SAK's/Tools 

I'm completely the opposite in all the sentences above... 

I'm the guy that does value doing things for myself. I'd much rather do/fix things myself, and researching and learning to do so than having to pay someone do the job for me. The exception being stuff that has gas or any king of flaming substances in the system, in that i rather have someone who was trained and experienced to handle those.

I'm way more interested (and exited by) being able to repair my own washing machine (and have done so), even if there's nobody watching, than be the hero of the party cause i opened a bottle of wine with a corkscrew that nobody remembered to bring along... 

and the ability to fix (and tinker with) things is about 70% of the reason why i carry a SAK