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Poll

If Victorinox were to make 84mm scissors, what models should they make?

Cadet X
Cadet II X - w/ small blade, no nail file
Bantam X - modern ‘Voyageur’
Mini Farmer X - either Cadet w/ Saw
Cellidor- Super tinker or Climber
Cellidor- Craftsman/Artisan/Fieldmaster Small
Other - please describe
Doesn’t Matter. I will buy any model with 84mm scissors.

Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want? 2695

No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2021, 07:50:31 PM »
Given that Vic supposedly makes about 45,000 knives per day, it's the sort of thinking they need to hear from lots of customers rather than just the comparatively few loyal ones...

…Yet they justify a lot of new feature for LEs that  number in the 2,000 range. Ones that sell out rapidly despite the relatively high premium pricing.

If they make it ‘cool’ enough, people will buy it and the effort will be profitable.  :dunno:

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Full Member Posts: 227 Galaxy-hopping garbage-man
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2021, 08:55:43 PM »
…Yet they justify a lot of new feature for LEs that  number in the 2,000 range. Ones that sell out rapidly despite the relatively high premium pricing.
If they make it ‘cool’ enough, people will buy it and the effort will be profitable.  :dunno:
LEs are generally just standard models with different scales, for the most part, though. It's easy enough to just yoink a few off the production line and slap on some special scales. Even the ssmurfy Damast and other special tools are basically still the same tool.
They don't usually have to redesign and retool to make X size thing fit into Y size frame.
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2021, 09:56:49 PM »
LEs are generally just standard models with different scales, for the most part, though. It's easy enough to just yoink a few off the production line and slap on some special scales. Even the ssmurfy Damast and other special tools are basically still the same tool.
They don't usually have to redesign and retool to make X size thing fit into Y size frame.

Maybe a previously issued tool, but often with some technically new or exclusive combo.

MOTM - PS, Scales, Tinker instead of PS Spartan
Battle series Rütli - Mechanic special, but CS 2.5mm pliers and inlay
Hoffritz LE1&2 New configurations at the time plus the inlays
VSAKCS- mix of new combinations and just scales or markings.

 :dunno:

I guess I get what you mean about lots of the ‘just different scales’ sort of LEs. There are many that go well beyond printing or inlay or numbered liners.

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Full Member Posts: 227 Galaxy-hopping garbage-man
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2021, 11:51:44 PM »
Maybe a previously issued tool, but often with some technically new or exclusive combo.

I guess I get what you mean about lots of the ‘just different scales’ sort of LEs. There are many that go well beyond printing or inlay or numbered liners.
But pretty much the sort of things that people here could (and likely would) produce themselves, if they wanted one... so again, no need for Vic to retool or re-design anything at their end.
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2021, 12:56:24 AM »
But pretty much the sort of things that people here could (and likely would) produce themselves, if they wanted one... so again, no need for Vic to retool or re-design anything at their end.

I’m not sure what process they used for the 2020 Winter Magic Alox scales, but pretty sure it involved new tooling to do it.  :dunno:

And my understanding is that every custom inlay had a new die tooled to make it.  :dunno:

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Full Member Posts: 227 Galaxy-hopping garbage-man
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2021, 01:24:14 AM »
I’m not sure what process they used for the 2020 Winter Magic Alox scales, but pretty sure it involved new tooling to do it.  :dunno:
And my understanding is that every custom inlay had a new die tooled to make it.  :dunno:
But they have not in any way altered the tools themselves, or the liners, or anything else as mentioned earlier in the thread?
It's still a Pioneer X...
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2021, 02:19:42 AM »
But they have not in any way altered the tools themselves, or the liners, or anything else as mentioned earlier in the thread?
It's still a Pioneer X...

True, but you’re arguing tool tooling vs. scale tooling. And one-off tooling for those scales. At least regarding LEs. Total sunk costs.

They’ve already altered or adapted existing tools for other frames. Like 91mm scissors into 111mm then 93mm. 74mm scissors into the Swisscard…as I mentioned previously.

Why would this be so different?  :dunno:

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Full Member Posts: 227 Galaxy-hopping garbage-man
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2021, 07:23:38 AM »
True, but you’re arguing tool tooling vs. scale tooling. And one-off tooling for those scales. At least regarding LEs. Total sunk costs.

They’ve already altered or adapted existing tools for other frames. Like 91mm scissors into 111mm then 93mm. 74mm scissors into the Swisscard…as I mentioned previously.

Why would this be so different?  :dunno:
LE scales are easily and cheaply customised, either themselves or even off-site by an outside contractor, as evidenced by the number of 3D printed examples. They don't require much in the way of redesigning or retooling of machines for bulk production and the costs are reflected in the pricing.
Custom tooling too is perfectly possible for low volume LEs... but the implication in the thread here is for a new range of standard issue models, which means retooling with new machines, which then requires high sales volumes to make it cost-effective. 
Hero Member Posts: 559
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2021, 12:35:33 PM »
I have rebuilt SAKs with parts from various knives spanning the last 35 years and they all fit together pretty nicely  (ie they have clearly kept it pretty safe for quite a while now) so maybe a little bit of new tooling isn’t that much of an ask - it’s not like we are suggesting a battery rotary tool attachment it’s a pair of scissors and a spring! :0) They already have the plans knocking around somewhere! Most of us would be quite happy for them to just supply parts and then we can decide what combination we put them in!  :ahhh
No Life Club Posts: 2,846
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2021, 12:40:40 PM »
Most of us would be quite happy for them to just supply parts and then we can decide what combination we put them in!  :ahhh

What a great idea, HB!  :like: :like:
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2021, 07:53:52 PM »
LE scales are easily and cheaply customised, either themselves or even off-site by an outside contractor, as evidenced by the number of 3D printed examples. They don't require much in the way of redesigning or retooling of machines for bulk production and the costs are reflected in the pricing.
Custom tooling too is perfectly possible for low volume LEs... but the implication in the thread here is for a new range of standard issue models, which means retooling with new machines, which then requires high sales volumes to make it cost-effective.

That’s the ‘ask’ for *after* the costs are borne by the LE sales.

The scissor tang change isn’t a huge deal, if based off existing 74mm design. The backspring changes are minimal.

I used to be on your side of this issue.  Made the arguments based on a completely new/updated 84mm specific design. But the more I looked at the actual parts and build 84mm mods, the more I understand how little needs to be done to adapt the 74mm to the 84mm frame.

What a great idea, HB!  :like: :like:

 :iagree: :like: :like:

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Newbie Posts: 20
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2021, 12:43:25 AM »
I would like to see them make the salesman (84mm super tinker) again. They're very expensive and hard to find so it would be great to have one that I wouldn't be afraid to break or lose.
Sr. Member Posts: 372
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2021, 02:22:53 AM »
 :iagree:
I'd like to see a new Salesman as well.

Of course, there's an even chance that I would add an 84mm wood saw to it to create an 84mm Fieldmaster.

Current SAKs: Explorer, SwissChamp, Handyman (modded), Climber, Super Tinker, Tinker, Woodsman (modded), Electrician, Pioneer, SwissTool
Current Leatherman tools: PST, Original Wave, Wave, Wave+, Blast, Bond, Curl, Style PS, Micra

Boomer Sooner!
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2021, 07:07:26 AM »
84mm Fieldmaster.

*cough* Craftsman *cough cough*

 ;)

But,

 :iagree:

 :rofl:

Nice to see more votes continue to trickle in.  :like:

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Jr. Member Posts: 63
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2021, 11:11:43 AM »
I desperately want a Golfer 84 mm.
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2021, 03:28:56 PM »
I desperately want a Golfer 84 mm.

Which type? There were so many!

My favorite is the one that’s the same as the 136ka Craftsman, but with horn scales!  :D Sadly, most don’t know that was likely the first type actually sold as a Golfer!

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Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,455
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2021, 04:58:54 PM »
I voted for a Cadet X and mini Farmer.   I have a Salesman and while awesome I'd love to see a ALOX 84 with scissors in regular production.   

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2021, 06:57:19 PM »
I voted for a Cadet X and mini Farmer.   I have a Salesman and while awesome I'd love to see a ALOX 84 with scissors in regular production.   

 :iagree:

I didn’t get how nice and slim the 84mm alox is…until I got some of the old ribbed / old cross ones.  While I really liked the scissors in any other scaled 84mm and particularly the Craftsman…I finally saw how truly compact a knife with scissors could be. But it’s not like I’m gonna really use and abuse a Voyageur just because it’s awesome.

I really believe Victorinox should fill this niche once again.

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Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,455
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2021, 11:51:20 PM »
Yep, 84mm in ALOX is what I believe many would carry if given the chance.  While I like my Salesman and 84mm Golfer the slim feel of the Cadet would be a real winner.  I am so tempted to liberate those scissors from my Golfer but then VIC would release the Cadet X  :facepalm:

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 1,588
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2021, 12:09:13 AM »
Thoughts of a cadet X is what fires my feverish midnight fantasies! :drool:

Don't get too serious, just enough will do.
Newbie Posts: 41
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2021, 02:29:59 AM »
How about a more compact Compact?
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2021, 06:24:04 AM »
Yep, 84mm in ALOX is what I believe many would carry if given the chance.  While I like my Salesman and 84mm Golfer the slim feel of the Cadet would be a real winner.  I am so tempted to liberate those scissors from my Golfer but then VIC would release the Cadet X  :facepalm:.

I’d say do it…but not sure which Golfer it is!

I have similar concerns as I do more scissor conversions. I’d be super happy if they actually do it.

Original scissors are generally pricey enough that I stuck to using them for restorations and plan to use 91mm and 74mm only for mods going forward.

Thoughts of a cadet X is what fires my feverish midnight fantasies! :drool:

 :tu: And thanks for voting!

How about a more compact Compact?

That’s what the Bantam X is supposed to be. At least in my head, and why I built an alox version for myself to use.

Or do you mean a cellidor version?

I’d buy either…or both! :D

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Jr. Member Posts: 63
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2021, 01:30:42 PM »
This is exactly what I meant when I said Golfer 84 mm. An Alox version would be amazing, but I wouldn't turn up my nose at Cellidor.

How about a more compact Compact?
Full Member Posts: 121
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2021, 07:10:23 PM »

That’s what the Bantam X is supposed to be. At least in my head, and why I built an alox version for myself to use.

Or do you mean a cellidor version?

I’d buy either…or both! :D

Cellidor Waiter X, with awl instead of hook and maybe nail file on the side of the blade (like file on the 108 saw combo tool for GAK-2) - this would be complete package for me.

Current SAKs:
58mm - Rambler, Alox Minichamp, SwissLite
84mm - Waiter, Alox Bantam
91mm - Cybertool M, Swisschamp
111mm - Forester Wood, Tradesman
other - Baker's, Floral
No Life Club Posts: 1,368
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2021, 08:29:28 PM »
We can all dream all we want, but the return on the 84mm scissors will never happen, for all the reasons discussed (ad nauseam) in previous threads. The one very long shot is they add/adapt the 85mm Delemont scissors to the 84mm frame. But still.... why would they when they already have the 85mm line...? It would be easier to add the classic flat scales as an option to the 85mm line, i think that would be a good enough and a little more viable option IMO

"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2021, 09:13:04 PM »
We can all dream all we want, but the return on the 84mm scissors will never happen, for all the reasons discussed (ad nauseam) in previous threads. The one very long shot is they add/adapt the 85mm Delemont scissors to the 84mm frame. But still.... why would they when they already have the 85mm line...? It would be easier to add the classic flat scales as an option to the 85mm line, i think that would be a good enough and a little more viable option IMO

Wenger scissors totally defeat the whole purpose of Victorinox scissors in 84mm frames. That is never gonna happen. I also doubt many of the voters in this thread would want them. I mean simply, if you like or prefer the Wenger scissors, then you already have options available for purchase today.

Again, I used to be on that side of the argument and discussion…but I now see how easily and inexpensively 74mm scissors could be adopted into the 84mm frames. Maybe even add a tool like Phillips on the other side.

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No Life Club Posts: 1,368
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2021, 09:33:47 PM »
I mean simply, if you like or prefer the Wenger scissors, then you already have options available for purchase today.

No we don't...
What we have currently is the Evolution series with those stupid Evolution scales. If Vic would offer a classic flat scale version of it, i'd be all over it, but they don't.
I don't prefer the Wenger scissors, i prefer the Vic ones. But Wenger scissors (85mm) is better than no scissors.
I just still don't believe that Vic will ever bother with bringing back the 84mm scissors, or adapt any other sized scissors to the existing 84mm line. To be honest, i think it's a miracle that the 84mm line still exists at all, relative to cost/benefit for them...

"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")
No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2021, 10:47:54 PM »
No we don't...
What we have currently is the Evolution series with those stupid Evolution scales. If Vic would offer a classic flat scale version of it, i'd be all over it, but they don't.
I don't prefer the Wenger scissors, i prefer the Vic ones. But Wenger scissors (85mm) is better than no scissors.

Well, you’re welcome to start a thread on that or bump an old one.  :dunno:

Quote
I just still don't believe that Vic will ever bother with bringing back the 84mm scissors, or adapt any other sized scissors to the existing 84mm line. To be honest, i think it's a miracle that the 84mm line still exists at all, relative to cost/benefit for them...

I think Cadets and Waiters and Walkers sell pretty handily and add to their bottom line. According to the Poll, some new/re-released models should be able to do the same. Cadet X seems like a no-brainer to me now…LE or regular production. And if Victorinox could justify the tooling cost by selling an LE version first, they should be able to essentially get us crazies to fund the whole thing.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 12:43:52 AM by kamakiri »

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No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2021, 06:27:06 PM »
Nice to see the votes trickle in!   :like:

This example mod is a good one to show how easy it would be for Victorinox to put 74mm based scissors in with a tool on the opposite end (instead of the spacer/lever part).
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,84740.msg2126674.html#_

78.91 KB | 568x1024

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No Life Club Posts: 2,893
Re: Those who want 84mm scissors - which models would you want?
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2021, 11:29:00 PM »
Lol. I was such a scissor denier too.

Sorry, not gonna happen.

Victorinox already uses the some of the same dies and stamping to make all the scissors for 91mm, 93mm, and 111mm…at least from what I can tell, aside from hole sizes and nail nick orientation. The 74mm and 84mm don’t share enough dimensional properties to use common tooling. So that’s not gonna help.

Now, I haven’t seen any of the scissor specific tooling…but if it is at all like the carousel type setup for blade shaping and grinding (complicated and expensive)…84mm scissors will never happen.

Similar scissors (should have used a newer 91mm)

I gotta wonder now what they would say if I asked for a quote to produce say 5,000 units…scissors + backspring (blank).

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