Blade lock for 91mm Victorinox?

[Tasky]

You’re missing my point. That’s why the liner with the SD/chisel nail nick cutout is used and placed next to the normal blade layer.
The way you’re suggesting leaves little to no room for the required spring mechanism to be installed and much less to be hidden.

All of which ceases to matter because the rear scale still has the same large cutout anyway. I'd much rather use it than have it open and blank.

Besides, even if it technically works, I don't think you'd be able to comfortably depress something with so shallow and narrow a space as the chisel cutout. It's meant for lifting, not going down. This would be more evident when trying to close the blade outside of perfect workshop test conditions, such as with wet hands, or when you're tired, cold and a little numb.
The spring would need to be a custom job, for sure, probably a doglegged Y shape with one branch covering the small blade and the other being the lock bar, with the stem having the locking hook. Operation would be a sort of see-saw motion.

[kamakiri]

Still absolutely missing my point.

I’m talking about putting the lock blade one layer in, and retaining the 'normal’ blade layer as is, or whatever you want there topside, but still with a backside CS or Phillips…or even another backside tool spaced outboard to fit.

The lockback bar mechanism works like they normally do by pressing inward.  The spring used can be pretty light and works against the large end pin.

As for the springs to use, you just have to know what has enough material to make it work. Then knowing what years said backspring(s) are available. That’s only if interested in making it look like a Vic ‘factory’ assembly using OEM parts.

[hsherzfeld]

May I suggest that one or both of you provide sketches or other pictures of your respective ideas before this discussion devolves?

Y’all have gotten my mechanical engineer brain interested, but I’m not good at visualizing based on a description. If this was at work, I would draw it on the white board.

[nate j]

Sure - Imagine you're bushcrafting and working next to a short tree stump. You've just feathered a stick for the fire and you turn to reach for another, but catch the back of the blade against the tree stump - Snap, ouch, etc.
Another is working in a tight space, say a cubic foot box, cutting cords from a web harness or something. It's tight, you alter your position for the next cut and again catch the knife on the side of the box.

And you have actually seen something like this happen?  I think you would have to hit it fairly hard, even if it were a slip joint.

[kamakiri]

May I suggest that one or both of you provide sketches or other pictures of your respective ideas before this discussion devolves?

Y’all have gotten my mechanical engineer brain interested, but I’m not good at visualizing based on a description. If this was at work, I would draw it on the white board.

I wasn’t planning to say or argue more. I mocked this up to help others visualize what it would look like assembled since you asked. 

Drawing or sketching for me is billable. I’m sure it would take at least three hours to draw the spring assembly. 

[Tasky]

Still absolutely missing my point.
I’m talking about putting the lock blade one layer in, and retaining the 'normal’ blade layer as is, or whatever you want there topside, but still with a backside CS or Phillips…or even another backside tool spaced outboard to fit.

In that case, this is nothing to do with what I was suggesting anyway - I'm looking at the existing blade locking, rather than adding another one.

The lockback bar mechanism works like they normally do by pressing inward.  The spring used can be pretty light and works against the large end pin.

I still don't think you'd get a human digit in there to press it down far enough, at least not with any semblance of comfort, unless the outer face of the lever has a rise that stands proud and especially if you have any additional layers on the opposite side. Otherwise it's just too small and fiddly to make for reliably safe handling.

But feel free to actually make it and prove me wrong... If it's any good, I'll buy one off you.

And you have actually seen something like this happen?  I think you would have to hit it fairly hard, even if it were a slip joint.

Standard 91mm SAK.
I've seen it happen a fair few times, though not every such slip resulted in an injury. It was enough to break the spring tension and part-close the blade, so a near miss. Most of the time it was an adult handling the knife, too.

May I suggest that one or both of you provide sketches or other pictures of your respective ideas before this discussion devolves?

Oh, y'know I would, and all, but I dread to even think how much *my* time is worth... It'd probably be at least five minutes, and with the consultancy agency fees and everything else that goes in, you're talking a good £6,000 before VAT....
Nah, if my daughters behave themselves and give me a free moment, I'll scribble something out that will hopefully be recognisible.

[kamakiri]

Well, you’re more than welcome to show us that you’re idea won’t look janky and has enough room to work a spring and release mechanism in there.

I’ve built things like what I’m suggesting in the past, so I actually already know that it would work with a knife blade and exactly as I’ve outlined. The only thing I’d do differently for a subsequent build is in the specific spring mechanism - which I am not sharing.  No thanks on your offer to buy.  I don’t get your insistence after seeing the picture. Even people with ‘sausage fingers’ can operate such releases. You are free to cling to your incorrect opinion.

[Tasky]

Well, you’re more than welcome to show us that you’re idea won’t look janky and has enough room to work a spring and release mechanism in there.
I’ve built things like what I’m suggesting in the past, so I actually already know that it would work with a knife blade and exactly as I’ve outlined. The only thing I’d do differently for a subsequent build is in the specific spring mechanism - which I am not sharing.  No thanks on your offer to buy.  I don’t get your insistence after seeing the picture. Even people with ‘sausage fingers’ can operate such releases. You are free to cling to your incorrect opinion.

Oh I'm sure it will look exceedingly janky, especially to such a superior eye as yours... but still less janky than the Delémont lock tab, which is all I was going for. You'll see once I get a chance to draw it out.

As for your efforts - I'm sure you're completely correct and everything works wonderfully... as the single layer shown where there's nothing in the way of the lever cutout.
However, as I said, it'll be a different matter when fully assembled with tools either side, and even your own images and descriptions to date support this. The corkscrew stands way too proud on the one side and the electrician's screwdriver too proud on the other. You'd either need to open those tools, or prod it with something rounded and thinner than about 5mm in order to even touch the back of the lever.

So without a better explanation from yourself, or some better shots of the mockup, I maintain that the surrounding layers will prevent most human digits from even touching the lock lever as depicted... and the offer to buy was only for a modded model that actually worked, which so far you have yet to actually demonstrate.

[kamakiri]

So…if I get a little 7 year old girl and the largest big fingered man I can find to both open such a knife…you would do what in exchange? Streak across the field/court at a local sporting event? 

[Tasky]

So…if I get a little 7 year old girl and the largest big fingered man I can find to both open such a knife…you would do what in exchange? Streak across the field/court at a local sporting event? 

Why on Earth would I do that??!!
I asked you to prove your assertions. Instead I get an awkwardly angled photo that offers no such substantiation and only your say-so that it works, with the caveat that you can't explain it better or draw it out because we're not paying you for it...

[kamakiri]

Why on Earth would I do that??!!
I asked you to prove your assertions. Instead I get an awkwardly angled photo that offers no such substantiation and only your say-so that it works, with the caveat that you can't explain it better or draw it out because we're not paying you for it...

 
Sometimes people actually accept absurd conditions for a bet when they’re supremely confident in themselves. I offered for the entertainment value. I don’t need your money or your approval…so what else should I ask for in exchange?

[Tasky]

Sometimes people actually accept absurd conditions for a bet when they’re supremely confident in themselves. I offered for the entertainment value. I don’t need your money or your approval…so what else should I ask for in exchange?

Ask for whatever you want, it's your challenge... No guarantee you'll get it, of course, but then this isn't really about me, is it? I have an idea and I think it would work based on near-identical existing mechanisms... but it's yours in which I seek confidence.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, how about you start with a photo that's actually square-on, showing the height of the corkscrew and other back tools above the frame, along with how you think a human finger would comfortably fit into the 3mm space between?

[kamakiri]

Meanwhile, back in the real world, how about you start with a photo that's actually square-on, showing the height of the corkscrew and other back tools above the frame, along with how you think a human finger would comfortably fit into the 3mm space between?

Meanwhile, in my real world, I built a fully functional mock-up in less time than it would take to make a good drawing. I took pics of what I’d be willing to show, but your insistence is just making me want to tell you to pound sand. I’m posting pics for myself and others who may be interested. I still need to adjust a few things and cut a spacer for the blade, but the lock and spring work great and your concerns over access are just quite unrealistic and unfounded. The supposed access and clearance issues are just in your head.

Currently the travel at the release to unlock is about 1mm and I will adjust/increase it to get up closer to ~1.4mm, then adjust how much it sticks out when locked.

With the lock engaged:

[Tasky]

I took pics of what I’d be willing to show, but your insistence is just making me want to tell you to pound sand. I’m posting pics for myself and others who may be interested.

I *was* one of those who was interested!!
I get that you have super-secret ideas and methods of doing whatever it is that you do, and that you think they're worth lots of money... but I'm not interested in how you did it or what the secret is. I'm focussed entirely on the end result and whether or not it actually works for the average user. So far you have not demonstrated this. I'm sorry if you don't like having your assertions challenged, your concepts tested, or being called upon to prove something you claim... but that's how the world works, and if you can't (or in your case, won't) put your money where your mouth is, then you are just talking testicles and I'm calling you on it.

There are plenty of ways to substantiate your claim without disclosing your highly classified methods.
I even gave you such a way already - The second pic is on the way to what I keep asking you for. You just need to put the other layers either side of it and show that the lever sticks out enough to work. Right now it looks about as tall as a standard chisel, which is not tall enough, as I shall next illustrate...

I still need to adjust a few things and cut a spacer for the blade, but the lock and spring work great and your concerns over access are just quite unrealistic and unfounded. The supposed access and clearance issues are just in your head.

Let's look at that, shall we?
Using a completely unmodded, out-of-the-box, current-model Vic Handyman...


Here's a pic showing the height variation between the fine screwdriver, chisel and the corkscrew. Note how low the chisel sits:
 

Coin.jpg (Filesize: 73.97 KB)

Here's another, this time with my actual finger, pressing down as hard as I can. Note how I barely even touch the top of the chisel. There's no way I would be able to actually push it down with any amount of force.
 

Finger.jpg (Filesize: 94.38 KB)

Supposedly in my head, yet also on camera.
So, with your design as currently shown in your second pic, the only way one could possibly reach that lock lever to depress it is by opening the corkscrew and coming in from the side. Acceptable for some people, perhaps, but still fiddly, really not the best implementation and as questionable a design as the Phillips screwdriver implementation on the 111mm models.

Currently the travel at the release to unlock is about 1mm and I will adjust/increase it to get up closer to ~1.4mm, then adjust how much it sticks out when locked.

Why, in the name of Smurf, did you not Smurfing-well just say ^this^ in the first place???!!!!!
You claim all these issues are 'in my head', yet you still incorporate a method to directly address and solve the very same 'imaginary' issues..... ??!!

[kamakiri]

Why, in the name of Smurf, did you not Smurfing-well just say ^this^ in the first place???!!!!!
You claim all these issues are 'in my head', yet you still incorporate a method to directly address and solve the very same 'imaginary' issues..... ??!!

 

Wow. You got all worked up over this…thinking you knew what I meant here. I actually mean to make it as close/flush to the liner profile as possible when locked open. This is to prevent accidental release.

…

Aaaannnnyyywwwwwaaaaaayyyyyy…

Spent my free time today getting all the tang and lock details done and adjusting the closed blade angle. There’s no lock-rock, even though it’s not peened or screwed tight. The lock bar sits a tad deeper when locked compared to yesterday’s mock-up and lock is fully seated. Easily resists 50+ lbf. on the spine above the nail nick.  Not gonna test more than that until it’s in a screwed or peened assembly.  Happy with the results so far. Happy enough that I’m going to do something similar in 111mm to compliment my OHO slide-lock conversion.

Still to do:
Cut a permanent blade spacer (2.0mm tang blade)
Cut/machine finished spring retainer
Adjust lock bar protrusion (reduce)

[Tasky]

Wow. You got all worked up over this…thinking you knew what I meant here. I actually mean to make it as close/flush to the liner profile as possible when locked open. This is to prevent accidental release.

How is anyone supposed to know what you mean when you don't actually say it?

I'm not worked up. Merely disappointed in you, really... and even more so, if you're going to seat the lever flush.

[Fortytwo]

It has been done, I believe it's even somewhere on this forum. I'll post the picture from my storage but there might be more info available with a reverse image search or similar. Credit to ong.

[Tasky]

May I suggest that one or both of you provide sketches or other pictures of your respective ideas before this discussion devolves?
Y’all have gotten my mechanical engineer brain interested, but I’m not good at visualizing based on a description. If this was at work, I would draw it on the white board.

I've knocked up a sketch to try and illustrate the concept of what I had in mind - It's based on a near-identical spring mechanism we use throughout the water industry. Credit and hugs to the Archerwin website, from whom I borrowed the base image of a pre-2004 Explorer... Upper image is a standard knife, lower image is the modded version with custom spring (shaded to highlight it):


 

Y-Spring Sketch.jpg (Filesize: 85.56 KB)

1. The inner arm provides enough spring pressure to secure the small blade, open or closed.
2. When closed, the inner arm pushes back with enough pressure to pivot the spring and either hold the large blade closed, or push the locking end into the lock notch.
3. The outer arm runs along the channel previously used by the corkscrew, so the end can be as wide as needed for comfortable operation.

This is just an idea being illustrated, so if anyone with skills fancies making this up to test the concept, feel free... *I* don't charge for my time or for sharing my ideas!   

[MacGyver]

Has anyone ever figured out how to retrofit a blade lock onto a 91mm Victorinox? It's a basic safety feature and it bugs me that Victorinox only includes it on their largest tools and the ones they inherited from Wenger. I could probably figure out how to do it on my own, eventually, but I'd rather draw upon the expertise of this forum instead of wasting time, money, and parts.

Well, that's obviously YOUR opinion.
I on the other hand am completely opposed to Victorinox installing locks in any of the 91mm SAKs. It's bad enough that some 85mm have them. It would stop me from buying new Vics all together.
I see no benefit of a lock on a 91mm SAK at all, other than to render it as an illegal carry in many countries. Plenty of SAK's and MT's with locks to choose from, even though they are a little bigger.

If you MUST have a lock on a 91mm SAK however, you can try some mods as the others have said.
And if you are really hard pressed in a pinch needing to use the blade in a manner where a kind of lock would be necessary, you can easily improvise a "lock" with just a bit of paracord. Felix Immler shows some cool tricks for that on his YT channel.

[Huntsman]

Well, that's obviously YOUR opinion.

Yep MacG and you have stated yours - So we are all good -  -   That's the idea of this forum - Different strokes for different folks.

FYRSTORMER would like a lock on his 91mm SAK - So let's discuss it and let him go for it! - No need to be critical !

[MacGyver]

No need to be critical !

I wasn't being critical, i was giving my opinion (and discussing it), that happens to be opposite to the OP's. However i'm assertive and don't sugar coat things, just tell it like it is.
If we are going the "politically correct" comment replays route over here now than i'll gladly show myself out...

[nate j]

Being able to take a step back and question assumptions is part of the fun of these threads, and sometimes leads to unexpected conclusions or solutions.

all

[Tasky]

There are also ways to phrase your delivery of an opinion, without it being judgmental toward than of another... Most of us probably do this, but it's something to be aware of.

Or just focus on solving the challenge presented.

[SteveC]

 

[MacGyver]

I guess best thing is for me to keep my mouth shut from now on and not risk being "judgemental" or "critical" then 😉

[Tasky]

I guess best thing is for me to keep my mouth shut from now on and not risk being "judgemental" or "critical" then 😉

Or just phrase it better and stay friends with everyone... 

[ComboTool]

 
Prefacing thigs by "I think..." or "I prefer..." goes a long way.

[Huntsman]

OK Folks - Let's get back to topic

Lots of interesting debate and ideas - But only one reply from the OP in the first 24hrs - Be good to know where he is at after all this    

Mate?   

[Simon_Templar]

Lots of interesting debate and ideas - But only one reply from the OP in the first 24hrs - Be good to know where he is at after all this    

Mate?   

Looks as if he went. Through the roof 

But earnestly, I for one have the impression that too many discussions on this forum get overly heated up recently. Maybe Corona made us all too thin-skinned? In any event, I hope we can get back to a forum culture where we take our SAKs seriously, not ourselves.

[Tasky]

Looks as if he went. Through the roof 

OP was still on the forum yesterday... may be still reading the thread.

Either way, I'm still interested in the concept and possible implementation of these ideas.
A blade lock is fairly useless for carry in a good number of countries, but I'm always a fan of having options... such as the Delémont range that offers several models with and without the lock.