RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build

[Farmer X]

  as well.

I wasn't going to weigh in here, but obviously I changed my mind. I'm sure one of Victorinox's  bean-counters figured out that they could save five francs per 100 sets of scales by slightly reducing the thickness of some non-critical areas. Might not seem like a whole lot, but if would really add up with all the scales they produce. I'm sure if they have enough issues with them breaking, they'll rethink things.

That said, I'd still like to see a few alternatives to Cellidor. Micarta would be my top pick, with G-10 running a close second. Even FRN/GFN would be nice.

[BarbaBaba]

Well, to be fair the blindfold test would be easy to pass, because just tapping on the scales reveals they’re hollow inside. But don’t take my word for it. Give it a try.

So far I’ve had two new cell SAKs crack and/or then pop off. Both were dropped on hard surfaces, concrete, and pavement. But I am rough on my knives so others may not experience this.  My 80s explorer has solid scales and has survived many many a drop over the years without cracking or falling off.

For me, the difference is definitely noticeable, but most of my experience with cellidor is from using older solid scale SAKs so the new ones just feel cheap to me maybe because I’m used to the old ones YMMV

Was not the post about the "new" hollow scales in comparison to the earlier hollow scales?
As seen in the pictures, Victorinox have removed the small stabilizing walls around the holes for the rivets. The difference between the two hollow scale models is not going to affect the stability of the scales at all during any normal use.  How the idea that more plastic becomes premium over less is beyond me? Plastic is not a premium material in my book. Go for Alox or wood for a premium feeling.

[NutSAK]

Was not the post about the "new" hollow scales in comparison to the earlier hollow scales?.

Saying that the new scales are "even more hollow" and "yet another cutback" as the OP did implies that he is comparing the new scales to all Cellidor scales that came before them, including solid and the previous hollow hollow ones, but I can see where you might have missed that implication. 

The difference between the two hollow scale models is not going to affect the stability of the scales at all during any normal use.

This appears to be opinion stated as fact since you've not shown any supporting facts or evidence that they won't differ in stability.  I'm only pointing this out because your first post stated that this topic "should have been informative with some real facts".

How the idea that more plastic becomes premium over less is beyond me? Plastic is not a premium material in my book. Go for Alox or wood for a premium feeling.

You're the only person in this thread that has used the word "premium" to describe it, so I'm not sure how you thought anyone else had the idea that Cellidor was a premium material.

[Bunk Tuppins]

The original plastic scale designs were probably based upon the forms of the wood and fiber scales that came before.  They may well have manufactured solid scales in those days simply because it was easier to do with the technology they had.  Subsequent engineering and newer injection molding techniques may well yield a scale that is lighter and more able to absorb shocks because of its flexibility.  All conjecture but we don't really know that the current scales aren't actually better than the old ones.

By the way I tried tapping various mounted scales and I can't tell the diff between older and newer by that method.

[MacGyver]

Wow, bud! You are one of those... Now take your pills and lay down

I'm not sure what you mean by one of "those". I just don't take crap from anyone bud.
Be nice to me, and i'll be nice to you... It's not that hard now, is it...?
Your previous comment came across as "rude" and patronizing. You could have expressed your opinion on this thread with a different "tone"

[MacGyver]

On some of the older solid scales I have seen the tweezer has pushed out enough that the scale is bowed - causing a gap.

Had anyone seem this occur on a hollow scale?

That's probably from the "spring like" tension from the tweezers being a bit high, and material fatigue from temperature changes over the years.
On the newer ones if the tweezers tension is high, you can notice that typical "hump" on the front scale as it warps very slightly on the spot the tension is maximum. That0s why i always bent down all my tweezers to close them more and take a lot of the tension of it from the scales. Yes it can fall down easier by doing that, but i crimp up the plastic tip edge so it fits the slot snug, to compensate, as i absolutely hate to see any gap between the scales and the liners, anywhere.
But that's just me... I'm picky like that...

[MacGyver]

I'm sure if they have enough issues with them breaking, they'll rethink things.

Or not..., scales are dirt cheap at factory prices, i know that for a fact. If it breaks and people send them in for replacement it will cost them way less to replace them probably, than reverting back to sturdier scales.

That said, I'd still like to see a few alternatives to Cellidor. Micarta would be my top pick, with G-10 running a close second. Even FRN/GFN would be nice.

I agree with that, but those are not for me. They are not the classic official Vic SAK scales with the cross and shield logo on them. For me, if it's not red, it's not a SAK, even if i can appreciate all the other colors and customs.

[MacGyver]

Was not the post about the "new" hollow scales in comparison to the earlier hollow scales?
As seen in the pictures, Victorinox have removed the small stabilizing walls around the holes for the rivets. The difference between the two hollow scale models is not going to affect the stability of the scales at all during any normal use. How the idea that more plastic becomes premium over less is beyond me? Plastic is not a premium material in my book. Go for Alox or wood for a premium feeling.

That's YOUR opinion mate, and i respect it. Please respect OTHER peoples opinions too, especially if they differ from yours.
Like i said before, it's as much of a "feel" thing as it is of a "buid" or "sturdiness" thing.
BTW, just our of curiosity. do you have any older SAK models with solid scales...?

[MacGyver]

By the way I tried tapping various mounted scales and I can't tell the diff between older and newer by that method.

Fair enough....
I on the other hand can tell the difference immediately.
Even the stainless cross and shield is slightly different, the newer ones are "paper thin", and a lot of them have a tendency to lift up at the edges, and feel loose there. I never saw that with the older models. They also changed the way the shield is inlayed in the plastic

[NutSAK]

I haven't had problems with Cellidor scales to date, with one exception--early solid scales tended to shrink a bit and curl up slightly at the ends of the frame.  I suspect this was fixed later by a reformulation of Cellidor.

I've not experienced any chipping, cracking, or other failure of any of my Cellidor scales in the 40-odd years I've been carrying and using SAKs.  Of course I've bought used SAKs that had damaged scales, but I have no idea what forces were at play to damage them.

I can tell a difference in solid vs. hollow scales by the sound they make when tapped on, but honestly I can't tell any difference by feel, old vs. new, in actual use.

[Jazz]

but i crimp up the plastic tip edge so it fits the slot snug, to compensate

How exactly do you do this, bro? I'm not a fan of when tweezers slide out a little bit.

[MacGyver]

How exactly do you do this, bro? I'm not a fan of when tweezers slide out a little bit.

It's nothing fancy... i just grab the piers from a Deluxe Tinker or a set of long nosed pliers and crimp the plastic part marked in the pic a little, the sides than go into the slot, just crimp it out a bit so they will fit more snug on the sides in the slot. I don't even use the tweezers very much, so as long as it holds and don't fall out i'm good

[Jazz]

It's nothing fancy... i just grab the piers from a Deluxe Tinker or a set of long nosed pliers and crimp the plastic part marked in the pic a little, the sides than go into the slot, just crimp it out a bit so they will fit more snug on the sides in the slot. I don't even use the tweezers very much, so as long as it holds and don't fall out i'm good

(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks. I will try it out. Mostly happens on my Classics.

[BarbaBaba]

I'm not sure what you mean by one of "those". I just don't take crap from anyone bud.
Be nice to me, and i'll be nice to you... It's not that hard now, is it...?
Your previous comment came across as "rude" and patronizing. You could have expressed your opinion on this thread with a different "tone"

I will start by saying that I am not here to pic a fight, but I just was expecting more from your RANT after reading the head line. If I am not mistaken, hollow scales have been around since early 2000? Instead of just saying "by the looks" (since you have both scales in front of you) you could have measured them, providing information if the scales actually is thinner. Instead of saying "I bet" you could have stated that you could feel the difference between them in the first post.  Just like you are free to post what ever you want, so am I. You found my post offensive, that´s fine by me, it was ment as a constructive and a little provocative criticism. Unfortunately it did not work out to make you provide any more facts. But you telling me not to comment just because my comment offends your RANT is what makes you "one of those" in my book. Pease B
*yes, I have plenty of older knives with all different scale combinations

[MacGyver]

Instead of just saying "by the looks" (since you have both scales in front of you) you could have measured them, providing information if the scales actually is thinner. Instead of saying "I bet"...

Ok..., so you make some interesting remarks, and i kind of understand now your reasoning on that post (just not your "tone").
The thing is that you "assumed" i had both scale versions in front of me, which i don't. That's why i said  "I bet".
It started off some pictures i saw online for the "newer" or more hollowed out scales, those pictures i posted of the newer ones are the ones i saw online, i don't have any of those scales, that i know of... I'd have too look in my stash because i have quite a few replacement scales, but i don't believe i have any of the newer ones as it's been a couple of years since i bought any.   The picture that is mine it's only for the first "older" hollow scales.
However i was going by the logic of "corner/cost cutting" from Vic, as it was the main reason to why they started to make the scales hollow in the first place, courtesy of the repercussions of 9/11 on global policy of knives, especially sold at airports and ban from carrying on planes. It was a part of their strategy to cut costs due to the huge toll it took on their business and profits.
I personally wouldn't mine paying a bit more to keep the solid scales, but obviously that's "just me"

I was speculating, but it was speculation based on material and build logic from what can be observable. And i don't think they changed the cellidor formula to something more sturdy or chemical resistant.

Just like you are free to post what ever you want, so am I. You found my post offensive, that´s fine by me, it was ment as a constructive and a little provocative criticism. Unfortunately it did not work out to make you provide any more facts.

Bro..., you could had just added a fun emoji or something to come across as "poking" or "provocative".
I'm a Gen-X'er bro, "sarcasm" and "provocation" is our middle name. I don't get offended about every little crap, so i naturally interpreted your meaning as "smartass-y"

But you telling me not to comment just because my comment offends your RANT is what makes you "one of those" in my book.

No, my meaning was more like : "If you commented just to be rude, why comment at all"
I have no problem anyone disagreeing with me, and giving valid arguments that contradict mine, just don't do it in a "rude" way.
 

[BarbaBaba]

Ok..., so you make some interesting remarks, and i kind of understand now your reasoning on that post (just not your "tone").
The thing is that you "assumed" i had both scale versions in front of me, which i don't. That's why i said  "I bet".
It started off some pictures i saw online for the "newer" or more hollowed out scales, those pictures are the ones o saw online, i don't have any of those scales that i know of... I'd have too look in my stash because i have quite a few replacement scales, but i don't believe i have any of the newer ones as it's been a couple of years since i bought any.   The picture that is mine it's only for the first "older" hollow scales.
However i was going by the logic of "corner/cost cutting" from Vic, as it was the main reason to why they started to make the scales hollow in the first place, courtesy of the repercussions of 9/11 on global policy of knives, especially sold at airports and ban from carrying on planes. It was a part of their strategy to cut costs due to the huge toll it took on their business and profits.
I personally wouldn't mine paying a bit more to keep the solid scales, but obviously that's "just me"

I was speculating, but it was speculation based on material and build logic from what can be observable. And i don't think they changed the cellidor formula to something more sturdy or chemical resistant.

Bro..., you could had just added a fun emoji or something to come across as "poking" or "provocative".
I'm a Gen-X'er bro, "sarcasm" and "provocation" is our middle name. I don't get offended about every little crap, so i naturally interpreted your meaning as "smartass-y"

No, my meaning was more like : "If you commented just to be rude, why comment at all"
I have no problem anyone disagreeing with me, and giving valid arguments that contradict mine, just don't do it in a "rude" way.
 

we are all good in my book B Writing can some times lead to misunderstandings 

[gustophersmob]

[McStitchy]

Glad you've got this sorted. Please respect each other and be nice 

As for the "cheaper" new scales 
I can hear the difference between a solid and a hollow scale when tapping on it. That sometimes leaves a cheapish feel to it for me 

But, I like to change it up a little now and then so a scale swap is nice 

Here's a comparison pic I did a few years back...

[BarbaBaba]

Red, check!
Solid, check!
Vintage, check!

 

IMG_9860[28920].jpg (Filesize: 315.08 KB)

[Rizio Il Ghiro]

Now those scales are nice!

[hsherzfeld]

I’ll be honest, I ‘m so (relatively) new to SAKs that I had no idea that the scales used to be solid until I joined this forum. Once I learned this, I obviously wished they were still solid, but I’ve never had a problem with the hollow scales cracking or popping off.

I hadn’t noticed this latest change either, but after examining both the new and old versions of the front scale, I’m not worried about it.

Victorinox appears to have been strategic about where they removed the support ribs: note that they only removed the ribs that intersected the rivet (holes? I’m not sure what to call them). This suggests to me that they expect the rivets to support the scale shell in those areas in the event of an impact on the face of the scale.

[MacGyver]

Here's a comparison pic I did a few years back...

Those solid scales....   

[MacGyver]

Red, check!
Solid, check!
Vintage, check!

Beautiful 

[MacGyver]

Victorinox appears to have been strategic about where they removed the support ribs: note that they only removed the ribs that intersected the rivet (holes? I’m not sure what to call them). This suggests to me that they expect the rivets to support the scale shell in those areas in the event of an impact on the face of the scale.

In all honesty, i'm willing to swear they did that just because of the translucid scales, to look more "clean" with not so many ribs on the front scale, because the back scale is still the same.

[gustophersmob]

Red, check!
Solid, check!
Vintage, check!

  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]

Nice! Did you do the scales yourself?  I quite like that 

[BarbaBaba]

Nice! Did you do the scales yourself?  I quite like that 

Thanx B! Yes, I´s a complete rebuild with home made micarta scales and brass liners. I have done e few different experiments making my own micarta (with different success ).
 

sak_group.jpg (Filesize: 360.18 KB)

A little group photo of the Micarta-family

[McStitchy]

Those solid scales....   

I know, right?

[NutSAK]

Thanx B! Yes, I´s a complete rebuild with home made micarta scales and brass liners. I have done e few different experiments making my own micarta (with different success ).
  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]  
A little group photo of the Micarta-family

Beautiful work BB!

[BarbaBaba]

Beautiful work BB!

Thank you kindly B! The denim-micarta is from my re-cycled Thin Finn Nudie Jeans, G-10 liners in orange to simulate the stitching... I kept a rivet and made it in to a shield