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RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build

pt Offline MacGyver

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RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
on: September 13, 2023, 06:18:51 PM
I've noticed lately that Victorinox made yet another cut back on cellidor scales material, look at the older style (like 5 or 6 years ago) compared to the latest ones (2 or 3 years ago at best)




They've cut back even more on some ridges, and scales are even more hollow, and from the looks of it, thinner. too..
What are they going for next? Egg shell thin...??

FFS...  :facepalm:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 06:37:15 PM by MacGyver »
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline gustophersmob

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #1 on: September 13, 2023, 06:40:31 PM
Is the newer scale cellidor?  The texture looks like its nylon? If its nylon, I wonder if the material is stronger, allowing for more hollowing?  :think:

Either way, this problem is best solved with alox!  :D
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us Offline NutSAK

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #2 on: September 13, 2023, 06:44:50 PM
That is significant.  :o

I think the newest 91mm SAK I own is older than 15 years.  I don't see that changing.

The second pic does look more like nylon, but I can't imaging MacGyver making that mistake...
- Terry


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #3 on: September 13, 2023, 07:53:48 PM
*double post*
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #4 on: September 13, 2023, 07:55:04 PM
Ahah..
Not nylon guys.... both are Cellidor

The newer one is more mate inside that's why it looks like nylon on that lighting, but i can assure you it's Cellidor. And besides, how could it be nylon if it clearly has the hole that you can see the metal shield beneath...?  :D

Here's another pic of the same type front scale


"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline NutSAK

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #5 on: September 13, 2023, 07:57:23 PM
Either way, this problem is best solved with alox!  :D

You have a great point...no cheapness going on there.
- Terry


us Offline Bunk Tuppins

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #6 on: September 13, 2023, 08:37:46 PM
Does not look all that different to me from a structural point of view.  I doubt if any of us could tell the difference if the scales are mounted on a knife.


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #7 on: September 13, 2023, 08:46:37 PM
Does not look all that different to me from a structural point of view.  I doubt if any of us could tell the difference if the scales are mounted on a knife.

It has a lot more hollow spots, and less rims for structural strength. I bet that if we tapped on both mounted we could hear or even feel the difference. It will probably chip or break easier too.

I'm glad all of my stash of scales are of the older build.
I've only bought 3 recent 84mm's (Recruit, Small Tinker and Sportsman), i hope the 84mm's scales are still the older models
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline cody6268

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #8 on: September 13, 2023, 09:23:40 PM
I bought a new Recruit when Tractor Supply had a sale on them about 4 years ago (they were $10 each). Within a week the scales broke, and I robbed a nylon set from a Bantam and put on it. Meanwhile, my other one, which is late '80s has scuffed scales ,but they are otherwise fine. Not a chip or crack anywhere.


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #9 on: September 13, 2023, 09:57:06 PM
Within a week the scales broke

Holly crap...  :ahhh :o
You broke the scales of a Recruit? The lightest 2 layer 84mm?
Both my Recruit, Tourist  and Small Tinker have always hit the tile floor at some point, no chips ever, maybe a small ding or scratch.
Breaking 84mm scales is harder than the 91mm's. I', puzzled on how that happened.
Do you still have the scales? I'm curious to see a inner pic of them
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline gustophersmob

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #10 on: September 13, 2023, 10:14:26 PM
Ahah..
Not nylon guys.... both are Cellidor

The newer one is more mate inside that's why it looks like nylon on that lighting, but i can assure you it's Cellidor. And besides, how could it be nylon if it clearly has the hole that you can see the metal shield beneath...?  :D

Here's another pic of the same type front scale

(Image removed from quote.)

 :tu: No offense meant about the nylon question!

Interesting that the texture is changed as well.  Maybe its easier to make the molds that way?

I just put new scales on a Marlboro troubleshooter back 5 or 6 months ago.  I can't remember what they looked like.
If the trees blew down the wind and no one was around, would the alphabet song really go backwards?


us Offline Bunk Tuppins

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #11 on: September 13, 2023, 10:17:21 PM
I got these transparent blue 91mm scales as a freebee with an online order.  They are the same layout as the new format shown by MacGyver.  I do not find them weak, hollow, or lacking in strength.  They seem perfectly adequate for the job.  All plastic scales will wear out eventually if you really use them and any will break if they hit just right.

I also think this isn't a big deal for 91mm.  Replacement scales will likely be available forever - it's their main product line.   If they break, you can get new ones easily. 

* 004a.jpg (Filesize: 346.79 KB)

* 008a.jpg (Filesize: 263.25 KB)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 10:37:35 PM by Bunk Tuppins »


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #12 on: September 13, 2023, 10:51:23 PM
They are the same layout as the new format shown by MacGyver. .

Well..., there is just a tiny bitty difference in the layout, but i'm not going to point it out, ehehehe  >:D


I do not find them weak, hollow, or lacking in strength.  They seem perfectly adequate for the job.  All plastic scales will wear out eventually if you really use them and any will break if they hit just right.

I know, but i bet they will feel just a little more hollow. For me more plastic is always better then less plastic...
Hey, if it where up to me the scales will still be a solid slab of Cellidor just like the older ones, and these crappy hollow ones would never have existed
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline Bunk Tuppins

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #13 on: September 13, 2023, 11:13:56 PM
 :like:
Well..., there is just a tiny bitty difference in the layout, but i'm not going to point it out, ehehehe  >:D


I know, but i bet they will feel just a little more hollow. For me more plastic is always better then less plastic...
Hey, if it where up to me the scales will still be a solid slab of Cellidor just like the older ones, and these crappy hollow ones would never have existed


us Offline Enginears

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #14 on: September 14, 2023, 03:22:09 AM
.
What are they going for next? Egg shell thin...??

FFS...  :facepalm:

Haha egg shell thin would be cool in TI, but in cellidor… Id hate to crack my scales gripping to hard.

Is there any chance that they have refined the cellidor recipe to be stronger, and therefore less material is needed?

Have any of guys noticed a difference in durability between the abs and cellidor?


Offline BarbaBaba

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #15 on: September 15, 2023, 07:42:38 AM
Well..., there is just a tiny bitty difference in the layout, but i'm not going to point it out, ehehehe  >:D


I know, but i bet they will feel just a little more hollow. For me more plastic is always better then less plastic...
Hey, if it where up to me the scales will still be a solid slab of Cellidor just like the older ones, and these crappy hollow ones would never have existed
So the reason for starting this post was? You bet... you don´t know? You feel insecure when scales are not solid?
It should have been informative with some real facts instead. I can not imagine that the change is being done without proper rnd from Victorinox.


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #16 on: September 15, 2023, 09:16:12 AM
So the reason for starting this post was? You bet... you don´t know? You feel insecure when scales are not solid?
It should have been informative with some real facts instead. I can not imagine that the change is being done without proper rnd from Victorinox.

Like i said bud..., this was just a RANT, a personal opinion, and based on verified FACTSHave a problem with that, bud...??

I can start a thread about any topic i wish, within the SAK context, this is a Discussion Forum. It's not that this subject wasn't discussed many times in the past.

I think i've posted the facts and info that i have available and that is verifiable, and evident, if you know anything about Structural Engineering...

I don't feel "insecure", i just preferred the feel and build of the solid scales, and the more hollow and cheaply feel they get, the more annoyed i get, sorry for that...

You know..., if my post annoyed you so much you cold have just simply scrolled by and ignored it, instead of commenting in a way bordering "rudeness"...
Did you have anything useful to add, or was it just a "rant" too?

« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 09:30:04 AM by MacGyver »
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline Fireman

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #17 on: September 15, 2023, 12:22:24 PM
I checked a 30 year old Ranger against a <2yr old 91mm.   I don't doubt your pics of the internal differences, but from the outside it's impossible to tell which is which.  Judging from the number of chipped scales I see on eBay (usually at the ends, probably from being dropped), I doubt the new ones are significantly more fragile than the old. 

Now back to you.  Rage, rage against the cellidor being light.  ;)


us Offline gustophersmob

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #18 on: September 15, 2023, 01:53:36 PM
I was thinking about this last night.  I know Carl (cbl51/jackknife) has raised concerns about the hollow scales in the past, and he and others have examples of them breaking when dropped.  Although to Fireman's point, there are many of the solid style that end up chipped/broken as well (I've bought used ones this way myself).  I wonder if the the hollow kind do allow a little more flex and if that flex would help absorb impact a bit and reduce the chance of the scale breaking when dropped?  Similar to how most cell phone cases are designed.

Even if so, IDK if that would be intentional on Vic's part.  They could very easily just be doing this as a cost-cutting measure.  But knowing how slow they are to roll out changes, I seriously doubt they would do it without extensive testing.  Especially considering they do have a lifetime guarantee to honor on every knife sold.

Edit to add:  I replaced solid scales of of a Marlboro troubleshooter with new hollow ones back in the spring.  Once installed on the knife, I can't tell a difference in feel, they don't even sound hollow to me when tapped.  This is markedly different from the nylon scales on my 111mm OHTs, they sound and feel hollow and cheap.  My guess is that it has more to do with the frame and maybe the larger pin spacing than it does the material.  I don't currently have any 91mm nylon scaled SAKs to compare nylon v cellidor in the same frame size.
If the trees blew down the wind and no one was around, would the alphabet song really go backwards?


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #19 on: September 15, 2023, 02:23:26 PM
I checked a 30 year old Ranger against a <2yr old 91mm.   I don't doubt your pics of the internal differences, but from the outside it's impossible to tell which is which.  Judging from the number of chipped scales I see on eBay (usually at the ends, probably from being dropped), I doubt the new ones are significantly more fragile than the old. 

Now back to you.  Rage, rage against the cellidor being light.  ;)

Like i said, this is just a personal opinion. I can tell the difference, especially in "feel"
But this is obviously just an observation, it doesn't stop me from using SAK's with newer scales at all
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


us Offline Explorer

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #20 on: September 15, 2023, 03:42:30 PM
 :iagree:

I’m not really one to rant, but…

Those new hollow scales seem to pop off and/or crack easier too when dropped compared to the older style solid ones.

Vic may be saving some money by doing this, but the end result is a product that feels cheapo in the hand


« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 06:27:42 PM by Explorer »


us Offline Fireman

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #21 on: September 16, 2023, 02:02:52 AM
:iagree:

I’m not really one to rant, but…

Those new hollow scales seem to pop off and/or crack easier too when dropped compared to the older style solid ones.

Vic may be saving some money by doing this, but the end result is a product that feels cheapo in the hand

OK, time for science: we need a blindfold test.   8)    Out of curiosity, how many of the new scales have you had break or pop off? 


pt Offline MacGyver

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #22 on: September 16, 2023, 09:53:50 AM
OK, time for science: we need a blindfold test.   8)    Out of curiosity, how many of the new scales have you had break or pop off?

Ive had a couple, but im always careful not to drop them.
One of my Climbers just dropped from pocket high, and instant crack at the top of the scale. I have some vintage 80s ones that fallen lots of times, have a couple of deep gouges on the scales and not a single crack, and only started to get a little loose on one pivot after decades of use.
Also taking off solid scales is a lot harder than hollow scales, on the solid you have solid material around the fixing holes, so it gives less.  On the hollow ones you have about 1,5 mm of material around the holes,  it gives more and has more elasticity,  easier to become loose or poo out. Obviously both can chip or break if they hit with enough force.

Ive taken out and changed a couple of solid scales, and taken out and changes dozens of hollow scales
"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")


00 Offline Simon_Templar

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #23 on: September 16, 2023, 10:46:54 AM
Though I also prefer solid scales (who doesn't?), I wonder how acute the problem of breaking/chipping scales (solid or hollow) really is in practice. I have been using SAKs since my childhood and it has never happened to me so far. I don't happen to drop SAKs frequently, but it does happen from time to time and so far, I got nothing but scratches on my Celidor scales. But maybe I was just lucky.  :dunno:


Offline BarbaBaba

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #24 on: September 16, 2023, 12:37:17 PM
Like i said bud..., this was just a RANT, a personal opinion, and based on verified FACTSHave a problem with that, bud...??

I can start a thread about any topic i wish, within the SAK context, this is a Discussion Forum. It's not that this subject wasn't discussed many times in the past.

I think i've posted the facts and info that i have available and that is verifiable, and evident, if you know anything about Structural Engineering...

I don't feel "insecure", i just preferred the feel and build of the solid scales, and the more hollow and cheaply feel they get, the more annoyed i get, sorry for that...

You know..., if my post annoyed you so much you cold have just simply scrolled by and ignored it, instead of commenting in a way bordering "rudeness"...
Did you have anything useful to add, or was it just a "rant" too?
Wow, bud! You are one of those... Now take your pills and lay down ;)


us Offline Explorer

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #25 on: September 16, 2023, 12:58:46 PM
It may not be easy to understand another persons opinion or perspective, but regardless there’s no reason to be unkind here folks.


us Offline Explorer

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #26 on: September 16, 2023, 01:13:23 PM
OK, time for science: we need a blindfold test.   8)    Out of curiosity, how many of the new scales have you had break or pop off?

Well, to be fair the blindfold test would be easy to pass, because just tapping on the scales reveals they’re hollow inside. But don’t take my word for it. Give it a try.

So far I’ve had two new cell SAKs crack and/or then pop off. Both were dropped on hard surfaces, concrete, and pavement. But I am rough on my knives so others may not experience this.  My 80s explorer has solid scales and has survived many many a drop over the years without cracking or falling off.

For me, the difference is definitely noticeable, but most of my experience with cellidor is from using older solid scale SAKs so the new ones just feel cheap to me maybe because I’m used to the old ones :dunno: YMMV


us Offline Enginears

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #27 on: September 16, 2023, 03:22:05 PM
On some of the older solid scales I have seen the tweezer has pushed out enough that the scale is bowed - causing a gap.

Had anyone seem this occur on a hollow scale?


ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #28 on: September 16, 2023, 04:59:48 PM
Reminder about selection bias, guys.
It's possible that most of the not so good solid scales by now have broken, so only the best ones are around today, maybe giving a false impression of them all being better. :D
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


00 Offline Simon_Templar

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Re: RANT!! Newest cellidor scales build
Reply #29 on: September 16, 2023, 08:29:25 PM
It may not be easy to understand another persons opinion or perspective, but regardless there’s no reason to be unkind here folks.

 :iagree:


 

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