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Finally, some sense in the world

ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Finally, some sense in the world
on: January 25, 2024, 06:50:45 PM
https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/features/risky-play-for-children-why-we-should-let-kids-go-outside-and-then-get-out

The Canadian Pediatric Society is no longer recommending that kids be protected, they are now saying that children should be allowed and encouraged to do activities that may include the risk of injury.

They even go so far as to say that children should be allowed to have (supervised) experiences with tools, knives and axes.

They are now saying that this will result in people that will be better able to deal with things and make better judgements when they are older if they are allowed to experience things when they are younger.

I'm not a parent myself, but my response is:

No smurf.

Still, I am happy to see this kind of thing being encouraged.

Opinions?

Def
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us Offline ThisAlarm7

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #1 on: January 25, 2024, 07:47:46 PM
Good. My brother and I were raised this way carried pocket knives and hunted from an early age, and you can bet that's what is in store for our newborn daughter when she gets to that age.


fi Offline Blunt Object

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #2 on: January 25, 2024, 09:33:31 PM
I got my first puukko when I was six. Only instructions: no running with knife in hand, and cut away from yourself, not towards you. I was 18 when I cut myself the first time, when my SAK bit me.

With axes, I was told to follow through, swing down, not in an arc, and let the weight of the tool do the work for you. And so on.

Every child should be trusted with tools, lest they become a burden instead of becoming an asset.

Oh yeah, I'm a father of three. They were all gifted their first puukko at early age, a pocket knife and flashlight, and they got a Leatherman from me when they started military service (turns out the LM Molle pouch does not survive combat engineer training or door kicking).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2024, 09:40:15 PM by Blunt Object »
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us Offline Alan K.

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #3 on: January 26, 2024, 12:52:19 AM
That's the way it was in the past.  Kids have been overly protected in the last few decades and they are the worse for it. Millennials and Gen Z never learned the basic skills needed to do things for themselves.


us Offline BPRoberts

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #4 on: January 26, 2024, 01:30:26 AM
I'm a millennial teacher who spent a half an hour talking about butterfly knife tricks and multitools with my Gen Z students today, so there's some hope at least!


us Offline UscgSal

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #5 on: January 26, 2024, 01:48:32 AM
Good. My brother and I were raised this way carried pocket knives and hunted from an early age, and you can bet that's what is in store for our newborn daughter when she gets to that age.

 :like:   :iagree:
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us Offline UscgSal

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #6 on: January 26, 2024, 01:50:03 AM
That's the way it was in the past.  Kids have been overly protected in the last few decades and they are the worse for it. Millennials and Gen Z never learned the basic skills needed to do things for themselves.

 :iagree: again!
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us Offline Adam5

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #7 on: January 26, 2024, 02:21:54 AM
https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/features/risky-play-for-children-why-we-should-let-kids-go-outside-and-then-get-out

The Canadian Pediatric Society is no longer recommending that kids be protected, they are now saying that children should be allowed and encouraged to do activities that may include the risk of injury.

They even go so far as to say that children should be allowed to have (supervised) experiences with tools, knives and axes.

They are now saying that this will result in people that will be better able to deal with things and make better judgements when they are older if they are allowed to experience things when they are younger.

I'm not a parent myself, but my response is:

No smurf.

Still, I am happy to see this kind of thing being encouraged.

Opinions?

Def



Will this help me convince my wife that it is okay to let my grandson use my MTs and pocketknives when he is with me?
 


us Offline UscgSal

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #8 on: January 26, 2024, 03:03:27 AM
 :ahhh
Feel better!
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #9 on: January 26, 2024, 06:22:22 AM
Will this help me convince my wife that it is okay to let my grandson use my MTs and pocketknives when he is with me?
 (Image removed from quote.)

I depends, does she believe that he is capable of learning from your mistakes ?   :pok:   :think:
babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."


no Offline Vidar

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #10 on: January 26, 2024, 11:20:28 AM
Still, I am happy to see this kind of thing being encouraged.

Opinions?

Def

I do think it is positive that kids are allowed to try and do things. Nothing will ever be 100% safe so there is a sensible balance to be made, and my personal opinion is that this balance has been placed to the side of overly protective in many settings.

For me there is a key difference between activities where the risk is temporary like small cuts, bruises or discomfort and activities that might risk lasting injury or worse. I think using common hand tools and knives with supervision should fall in the first category, and that the learning and experience is worth such minor risks. Of course there are plenty of activities that falls in the too risky category too - even with supervision. Some power tools and heavier equipment comes to mind.

My father is an example that the balance can tilt too far towards trusting kids to keep full focus when needed: He and some friends were out hunting with shot guns when they were about 12 years or so. They sat down to rest and a kid sat down next to him without thought or securing his gun. As the the butt of the gun hit the ground the shot went off next to my fathers head. He got a tiny ear wound and permanently reduced hearing on that ear. That could easily have gone much worse. 
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ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #11 on: January 28, 2024, 06:30:29 PM
I do think it is positive that kids are allowed to try and do things. Nothing will ever be 100% safe so there is a sensible balance to be made, and my personal opinion is that this balance has been placed to the side of overly protective in many settings.

For me there is a key difference between activities where the risk is temporary like small cuts, bruises or discomfort and activities that might risk lasting injury or worse. I think using common hand tools and knives with supervision should fall in the first category, and that the learning and experience is worth such minor risks. Of course there are plenty of activities that falls in the too risky category too - even with supervision. Some power tools and heavier equipment comes to mind.

My father is an example that the balance can tilt too far towards trusting kids to keep full focus when needed: He and some friends were out hunting with shot guns when they were about 12 years or so. They sat down to rest and a kid sat down next to him without thought or securing his gun. As the the butt of the gun hit the ground the shot went off next to my fathers head. He got a tiny ear wound and permanently reduced hearing on that ear. That could easily have gone much worse.

I am glad that story was not much worse!

That having been said, the supervising adults do need to keep a very close eye on things, proportionate to the item they are being supervised with of course.

But, kids will be kids.  I did something stupid with a hatchet once and got six stitches in my shin.  My father was nearby and just looked away for a moment.  And, he well understood how dangerous it was- it was the same hatchet he almost amputated four of his fingers with a couple of years earlier!   :ahhh

Def
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scotland Offline Sea Monster

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #12 on: January 28, 2024, 09:34:11 PM
That's the way it was in the past.  Kids have been overly protected in the last few decades and they are the worse for it. Millennials and Gen Z never learned the basic skills needed to do things for themselves.


You seem like a nice person, and I imagine your post is fueled by misty eyed nostalgia of your own childhood rather than any real contempt, but as far as ignorant sweeping statements go, that's a pretty good effort.

There's not less than several millions of millennials successfully getting by each day, some of them are even starting lawn mowers, driving manual cars, and changing tyres, or whatever your benchmark of "basic skills" is.

Just because they know the names of lots of Pokemon, doesn't mean they don't know other stuff  ;)

and Gen Z are coming into play now, maybe I just move in certain social circles - but the ones I encounter enjoy mountain biking, sailing, woodwork, and conspiracy theories as much as any elder Gen X or boomer - if it wasn't for their love of K pop, y'all might get on much more than you think.





In any case, I'm not sure on the exact phrasing or government recommendations, but more "open" learning and exploration and outdoor experiences are very fashionable at the moment.

Of course, schools (and some parents?) don't have the resources to necessarily provide a great deal of this, for various reasons, so now you have to sign your kid up to programmes at some expense.

Nice for the businesses running the programmes I suppose.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2024, 09:40:39 PM by Sea Monster »


no Offline Vidar

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #13 on: January 28, 2024, 10:14:35 PM
and Gen Z are coming into play now, maybe I just move in certain social circles - but the ones I encounter enjoy mountain biking, sailing, woodwork, and conspiracy theories as much as any elder Gen X or boomer - if it wasn't for their love of K pop, y'all might get on much more than you think.

I like to think kids today learn as much as before, but that they learn other things. Kids are still curious, and the day is still 24 hours, so they will fill it with something or another. And hopefully a fair bit of that will still be useless but fun - as generations before them.

In any case, I'm not sure on the exact phrasing or government recommendations, but more "open" learning and exploration and outdoor experiences are very fashionable at the moment.

Of course, schools (and some parents?) don't have the resources to necessarily provide a great deal of this, for various reasons, so now you have to sign your kid up to programmes at some expense.

I think changing times and urbanization has made outdoors and nature quite distant for many, and maybe with some overly romantic overtones of for some. But if various programs means that more people get out and get personal experiences with nature then all the better. I think an important issue for nature today is that too many who make important decisions for nature are people far away in cities who has spent their entire life in concrete and tarmac. For them the value of nature as such might be quite intangible compared to calculations of hard cash and potential income. Anyway, I digress.

I think one of the biggest changes in the kids upbringing these days are actually activates outside of school. Before kids organized themselves for better and worse. These days everything seem to be organized by adults, and there is a lot of it. And with various certificates and whatnot to go with that. I'm not sure that is all for the better. 

"Simple is hard"
"Hard is hard too"
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scotland Offline Sea Monster

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #14 on: January 28, 2024, 10:33:10 PM
FWIW - "Risky play" is beneficial for adults too. That's why they do it for corporate retreats and stuff.

and the risk doesn't have to be all that real - it's about Perceived Risk.

Abseiling, white water, mountain biking, horse riding, etc can be fairly safe for the experienced, but can seem dodgy as all hell to a neophyte.

Lots of adults get a bit comfortable, and are far less capable than children of putting themselves in a "risky" situation (fear of looking stupid, mostly).


no Offline Vidar

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #15 on: January 29, 2024, 12:05:49 AM
Lots of adults get a bit comfortable, and are far less capable than children of putting themselves in a "risky" situation (fear of looking stupid, mostly).

I can say with good certainty that I've taken the most risk as an adult, by far, and that even if no one is looking! ( I still looked stupid I'm sure). Then there is of course bad luck - even if the risk is small, it is still there.

What gets me is the risk I underestimate or don't think about. Unknown unknowns have a bad habit of making themselves known... Ok if the kids learn that too while stakes are low.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 12:11:12 AM by Vidar »
"Simple is hard"
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ch Offline Sneider

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #16 on: January 29, 2024, 05:11:49 PM
In my opinion, it's a step in the right direction.

If you don't trust the children to be able to do something, they adapt and don't trust themselves to do anything.

When my son started school here in Switzerland at the age of 4, the teacher told us at the parents' meeting that we should give him a pocket knife to school because the class would spend every Friday, but also spontaneously, in the forest.

In response to concerned objections from parents, the teacher replied very dryly; "Everyone cuts their finger sometimes, the sooner it happens the sooner you learn to pay attention."
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ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #17 on: January 29, 2024, 05:47:01 PM
Excellent point indeed

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


fi Offline Blunt Object

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #18 on: January 29, 2024, 05:57:54 PM
In my opinion, it's a step in the right direction.

If you don't trust the children to be able to do something, they adapt and don't trust themselves to do anything.

When my son started school here in Switzerland at the age of 4, the teacher told us at the parents' meeting that we should give him a pocket knife to school because the class would spend every Friday, but also spontaneously, in the forest.

In response to concerned objections from parents, the teacher replied very dryly; "Everyone cuts their finger sometimes, the sooner it happens the sooner you learn to pay attention."

Sounds like Heaven!
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no Offline Vidar

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #19 on: January 29, 2024, 07:45:35 PM
In response to concerned objections from parents, the teacher replied very dryly; "Everyone cuts their finger sometimes, the sooner it happens the sooner you learn to pay attention."

Reminds me of when some television programme visited a kindergarten around here.  Kids of around 4-6 were out and about in some nearby forest and some had proper knives they used to cut branches, remove bark and whatnot. The television reporter asked the leader if she wasn't worried they might they cut themselves. She answered most only do it once before they learn.
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ch Offline Sneider

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #20 on: January 29, 2024, 08:26:18 PM
Reminds me of when some television programme visited a kindergarten around here.  Kids of around 4-6 were out and about in some nearby forest and some had proper knives they used to cut branches, remove bark and whatnot. The television reporter asked the leader if she wasn't worried they might they cut themselves. She answered most only do it once before they learn.

That's the way it is. You learn from mistakes. If you prevent children from making mistakes, you deprive them of an essential learning method. There is enough that we really need to protect children from. A smartphone, for example, can harm a child more than a knife, even many adults do not have control over their use, but that is another topic.
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cy Offline dks

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #21 on: January 31, 2024, 09:18:30 AM
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us Offline AzteCypher

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Re: Finally, some sense in the world
Reply #22 on: February 01, 2024, 05:11:40 AM
I grew up at the edge of the city limits.  I had a creek nearby that I would go fish at.  My dad taught me how to shoot a gun, how to handle a knife, and how to use an axe.  I got my first pocket knife when I was in middle school. 

My son (11yrs) is learning that albeit a bit later in life than I did and my daughter (8yrs) is learning it now with my son.  Watching both my kids grow up, I can tell that we were too cautious with my son so we're trying to make up for that.  I find that my daughter is more adventurous than my son.  Once my wife and I realized that we made our son too cautious, we encouraged them both to be adventurous.  I went from saying "be careful" to "pay attention".  I want them to be careful but you can do so by paying attention.  My son is now more adventurous than he was before.

I definitely feel that kids should be allowed to be kids.  I had to encourage my wife to at least let the kids go around the block by themselves and ride their bikes in the street within the neighborhood.  I kept telling her that we need to teach them to be self reliant.  I also told her that we should get to know our neighbors around us better so we know who our children are hanging out with.  I think we're improving as parents and our kids are learning to think for themselves and be a bit more self reliant.

I just gave my son his first Tinker and his first EDC flashlight.  He was very proud of them.  I saw my daughter side eyeing him so I may need to give her a Tinker soon as well.   :D
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