Just about UK legal but not really suitable for carrying Spyderco UKPK

greenbear · **on:** March 19, 2024, 10:23:05 AM

I have just taken delivery of a Spyderco UK Penknife - supplied by Heinnie Haynes of the UK with the usual superb service.

What I would like to talk about is the legality if this "UK legal" knife. On paper it meets the UK knife law....just. It is non-locking and has a 2 3/4 inch blade so, technically, just within the limits and I welcome the thought of forum members on this issue.

The issue for me is that I do not think I would be comfortable carrying it. My general knife carry is not "in the pocket, day to day" but for a specific purpose eg camping, foraging, work uses etc. The whole point of buying a UKPK was the legality, no need to worry about a sop by the Police they will be totally satisfied. Having it in my hand though, I am not so sure they would be. I suspect it would be a devil of a job to convince them it was legal largely through its looks. Obviously it is non-locking, which is a major point for UK knife law, but the blade length is very, very close to UK legal limits. It also looks larger than it is (which, to be fair, is part of the very clever design that gives a full length handle for a legal blade, so often UK legal knives have tiny handles and do not feel safe to use as a result).

I sought out the attached video from the highly reputed UK Barrister Daniel Shen Smith who assesses a UKPK for legality and believes that it is UK legal, but I still have reservations.

What think you folks?

pfrsantos · **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2024, 12:22:53 PM

The law is not about looks and/or feels, it's about facts. As long as the knife obeys the specifications of the law and you have a reason to carry it (even if it's just opening letters or cutting a piece of fruit) and you're not in a non-cutting tools zone (back to obeying the law), there's no reason for not carrying this (or similar).

But that's just me...

IMR4198 · **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2024, 12:35:27 PM

Legal it may well be, but every day you carry that thing is the day you will fear the police. Bad laws have bad consequences. Best wishes. G

greenbear · **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2024, 01:01:15 PM

Quote from: pfrsantos on March 19, 2024, 12:22:53 PM

The law is not about looks and/or feels, it's about facts. As long as the knife obeys the specifications of the law and you have a reason to carry it (even if it's just opening letters or cutting a piece of fruit) and you're not in a non-cutting tools zone (back to obeying the law), there's no reason for not carrying this (or similar).

But that's just me...

I agree, however, a guy I know of (he's a chat mate from another forum) has just been sent to prison for three months. The judge ruled the the exposed part of the knife that was not a blade constituted part of the blade length. He has been given leave to appeal but, of course, that can take 6 months in the UK.

The concern I have is over the extended jumped choil. If our friends in the constabulary are of the opinion that constitutes part of the blade, then is is over the legally proscribed length. I know it's crazy but it seems to be the way things are going.

greenbear · **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2024, 01:02:39 PM

Quote from: IMR4198 on March 19, 2024, 12:35:27 PM

Legal it may well be, but every day you carry that thing is the day you will fear the police. Bad laws have bad consequences. Best wishes. G

Yes, that is my concern

powernoodle · **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2024, 01:50:53 PM

I'm going to give an alternative view. I would encourage you to be bold and stop cowering. If its legal, then its legal. If a law enforcement officer does not like it, then he can go screw himself. What is he going to do - cite you or even arrest you? He won't take you straight to the gallows and chop off your head. Since that hasn't happened, you are conjuring up a scenario in your mind that isn't real and is prolly very unlike to occur.

What is worse - getting wrongfully cited or arrested, or living your life with your tail between your legs? I say the latter is far worse, but that's up to you. I would rather be wrongfully arrested than live a life of timidity, but I've practiced law for 33 years and am not as afraid of the police as the average person may be. I'm not the slightest bit concerned about being arrested for a crime I did not commit. But where I live, its legal to carry guns and knives concealed or openly almost without restriction, so I've never really had to be concerned about what the police think about a 2.8" blade. I recognize that the average, decent person - here or in the UK - could be very intimidated by an encounter with the police. But you have to decide how you want to live your life.

In addition, my view is that being friendly and compliant with the police, with plenty of yes sirs and no sirs and deference, will help you avoid most minor infractions. And what you are talking about isn't even an infraction in first place.

In this limited scenario, maybe try being fearless. Carry a copy of the statute with you, if it makes you feel better. See if it affects other aspects of your life.

powernoodle · **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2024, 01:59:32 PM

UKPK.

pfrsantos · **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2024, 04:22:39 PM

Quote from: greenbear on March 19, 2024, 01:01:15 PM

I agree, however, a guy I know of (he's a chat mate from another forum) has just been sent to prison for three months. The judge ruled the the exposed part of the knife that was not a blade constituted part of the blade length. He has been given leave to appeal but, of course, that can take 6 months in the UK.

The concern I have is over the extended jumped choil. If our friends in the constabulary are of the opinion that constitutes part of the blade, then is is over the legally proscribed length. I know it's crazy but it seems to be the way things are going.

Same with the knife laws here. Maybe because if you stab someone, awl of the blade would go into the body, not just the sharp part. Still, if even considering that, the blade is not over the legal limit, you should be fine (and not fined).

greenbear · **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2024, 04:54:14 PM

I hope so, it is a quality knife and would be a shame to send it back.

greenbear · **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2024, 04:54:30 PM

Quote from: greenbear on March 19, 2024, 04:54:14 PM

I hope so, it is a quality knife and it would be a shame to send it back.

SurgeUk · **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2024, 04:57:36 PM

Ok. So, I have one of these and I love it

The main issue in the UK is not about the law Per-se, as that is quite clear (less than 3" and non-locking) This fits those criteria.

The issue is mostly about intent and or circumstances. Part of it is awlso that, in the UK and with few exceptions, you can't be licensed to carry offensive weapons.

Therefore, the onus is upon you to show that you are compliant with the law and it doesn't matter about UK legal EDC compliance as, the moment I say, "I'm carrying it for self-defence”, it becomes an offensive weapon, regardless of its legal status (this includes things other than knives, but let's not muddy the waters)

So, do I carry mine. Yes!

Do I carry it where I think I might need to explain it? (Regardless of the law.) No!

There are two pieces of legislation (UK) that are relevant here.

(The bold/underlining/italics etc are mine)

1) Prevention of Crime Act 1953.

Prohibition of the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

Offence.

(1) Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence, and shall be liable (then goes on to sentencing etc)

Officer Actions.

A constable may arrest without warrant any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be committing an offence under subsection (1) of this section, if the constable is not satisfied as to that person’s identity or place of residence, or has reasonable cause to believe that it is necessary to arrest him in order to prevent the commission by him of any other offence in the course of committing which an offensive weapon might be used.

2) Criminal Justice Act 1988.

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Subject to subsection 3 (below)

(3) This section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—

(a) for use at work.

(b) for religious reasons; or

(c) as part of any national costume.

So, as you can see the law is very clear

If the cutting edge is less than 3” (7.62cm in Euros) then you’re fine (unless you state that you INTEND to use it for self-defence, or in the commission of another crime)

Basically.

1)   Folding

2)   Less than 3"

3)   Don’t be an arse

pfrsantos · **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2024, 05:08:41 PM

Quote from: SurgeUk on March 19, 2024, 04:57:36 PM

Ok. So, I have one of these and I love it

The main issue in the UK is not about the law Per-se, as that is quite clear (less than 3" and non-locking) This fits those criteria.

The issue is mostly about intent and or circumstances. Part of it is awlso that, in the UK and with few exceptions, you can't be licensed to carry offensive weapons.

Therefore, the onus is upon you to show that you are compliant with the law and it doesn't matter about UK legal EDC compliance as, the moment I say, "I'm carrying it for self-defence”, it becomes an offensive weapon, regardless of its legal status (this includes things other than knives, but let's not muddy the waters)

So, do I carry mine. Yes!

Do I carry it where I think I might need to explain it? (Regardless of the law.) No!

There are two pieces of legislation (UK) that are relevant here.

(The bold/underlining/italics etc are mine)

1) Prevention of Crime Act 1953.

Prohibition of the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

Offence.

(1) Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence, and shall be liable (then goes on to sentencing etc)

Officer Actions.

A constable may arrest without warrant any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be committing an offence under subsection (1) of this section, if the constable is not satisfied as to that person’s identity or place of residence, or has reasonable cause to believe that it is necessary to arrest him in order to prevent the commission by him of any other offence in the course of committing which an offensive weapon might be used.

2) Criminal Justice Act 1988.

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Subject to subsection 3 (below)

(3) This section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—

(a) for use at work.

(b) for religious reasons; or

(c) as part of any national costume.

So, as you can see the law is very clear

If the cutting edge is less than 3” (7.62cm in Euros) then you’re fine (unless you intend/state that you INTEND to use it for self-defence, or in the commission of another crime)

Basically.

1)   Folding

2)   Less than 3"

3)   Don’t be an arse

We need to create the MTo Church of Pointy and Pinchy Things, so we can awl roam the land free of fear that our EDC will be looked upon as evil and criminal.

SurgeUk · **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2024, 05:12:12 PM

Quote from: pfrsantos on March 19, 2024, 05:08:41 PM

We need to create the MTo Church of Pointy and Pinchy Things, so we can awl roam the land free of fear that our EDC will be looked upon as evil and criminal.

Amen, worshipful brother PF

greenbear · **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2024, 06:16:27 PM

It was my understanding that it was the cutting edge that was critical and, of course, the UKPK complies. The chap who was jailed was, allegedly, jailed on account of the cutting edge and the choil being considered as part of that 3" requirement. What I do not know is the circumstances of his carry. If was out on the town or wandering round a shopping centre then, clearly, it could not have been passed off as "reasonable use" and one must be aware that we are only hearing one side of a story where someone has been aggrieved (aggrieved people always tend to be more vocal

)

Ukleathermanfan · **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2024, 06:27:43 PM

I'm thinking of getting one aswell.
How long is the blade including the choil?
I've notice a police? website has recently changed to to length of the cutting edge not just the sharp part.
I'm sure this is a recent change

Magic Bus · **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2024, 06:31:01 PM

74mm or 2.91 inches

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

powernoodle · **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2024, 07:41:29 PM

Ukleathermanfan · **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2024, 08:38:41 PM

Quote from: greenbear on March 19, 2024, 01:01:15 PM

I agree, however, a guy I know of (he's a chat mate from another forum) has just been sent to prison for three months. The judge ruled the the exposed part of the knife that was not a blade constituted part of the blade length. He has been given leave to appeal but, of course, that can take 6 months in the UK.

The concern I have is over the extended jumped choil. If our friends in the constabulary are of the opinion that constitutes part of the blade, then is is over the legally proscribed length. I know it's crazy but it seems to be the way things are going.

I've just watched blackbeltbarrister measure the blade including the choil and it's 3"
Wasn't that the point of this thread?

SurgeUk · **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2024, 09:38:23 PM

Again! The law states 3" of the "cutting edge" (not the non cutting edge)

I used to deal with this on a daily basis, on the streets in the UK!

It is either legal or not legal (notwithstanding circs/intent)

This particuluar carry IS legal (subject to the above)

Magic Bus · **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2024, 10:09:33 PM

Quote from: SurgeUk on March 19, 2024, 09:38:23 PM

Again! The law states 3" of the "cutting edge" (not the non cutting edge)

I used to deal with this on a daily basis, on the streets in the UK!

It is either legal or not legal (notwithstanding circs/intent)

This particuluar carry IS legal (subject to the above)

This

, with the obvious proviso that non knife users often will not see a UKPK as non threatening, due to its appearance.

powernoodle · **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2024, 10:21:11 PM

Maybe we should not be concerned about what corpulent, divorced, unhappy middle-aged women think about our legal knives.

I'm a radical, I know.

Magic Bus · **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2024, 10:25:56 PM

Quote from: powernoodle on March 19, 2024, 10:21:11 PM

Maybe we should not be concerned about what corpulent, divorced, unhappy middle-aged women think about our legal knives.

I'm a radical, I know.

Sadly I’m referring to the biggest part of the population here in the UK. I’m a realist I know

!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SurgeUk · **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2024, 10:28:22 PM

Lions do not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep!

Except when travelling in London

Magic Bus · **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2024, 10:30:22 PM

SurgeUk · **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2024, 10:31:24 PM

Quote from: Magic Bus on March 19, 2024, 10:25:56 PM

Sadly I’m referring to the biggest part of the population here in the UK. I’m a realist I know !!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

powernoodle · **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2024, 11:44:16 PM

Everyone in the UK is most welcomed to move to Kentucky, USA. We have open and concealed carry of every manner of knife and gun with no permit; plenty of hot chicks, some of whom are Godly; are the world's bourbon and horse racing capital; and have a low cost of living. Employment at two Ford plants and a major UPS hub. You boys come on down.

Ukleathermanfan · **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2024, 12:13:24 AM

Quote from: SurgeUk on March 19, 2024, 09:38:23 PM

Again! The law states 3" of the "cutting edge" (not the non cutting edge)

I used to deal with this on a daily basis, on the streets in the UK!

It is either legal or not legal (notwithstanding circs/intent)

This particuluar carry IS legal (subject to the above)

Who are you shouting at?
Have you got any case law to refute the police guidance?