Do most enthusiasts consider Victorinox tools better than leatherman...?

[edap617]

I have a meager collection of Leatherman and Gerber MTs only. Within this first quarter I am planning to get another multitool to be added to my meager collection. This time I have decided to get a Swisstool. I have not seen nor fondled a Swisstool before. For a first time Swisstool owner/user what model would you recommend? 

I hope I can contribute to this thread later, after I get my first Swisstool.
 
Thank you.

Eddie

[Carthas]

I would get the Swisstool X, mainly because it has the scissors. It's personal preference though.

[Benner]

I would get the Swisstool X, mainly because it has the scissors. It's personal preference though.

Same here. 

The standard has a serrated blade and a file (but no scissors), the X has scissors and a file (but no serrated blade), and the RS has scissors and a serrated blade (but no file).  I would consider the X to be of most use as for me it has the best "trade off".  You still have the file and the scissors and although you don't get the serrated blade you still get a plain edged blade so you still have an element of everything.

[toytoy]

I was potty trained to use LM Wave and the ordinary SAK. They are the tools that I can properly use without cutting my fingers.

The first time I tried a Gerber in a store, I almost cut my fingers. Gerber tools are certainly great. I was simply too stupid praticing girl-watching while I was opening the Gerber.

I wonder if migrate to Gerber or Swiss Tools, I may cut my fingers because I am not so familiar with their design. Most tools are good enough to me. I just don't want to cut my fingers because I am too stupid to ...

[Sea Monster]

The first time I tried a Gerber in a store, I almost cut my fingers. Gerber tools are certainly great. I was simply too stupid praticing girl-watching while I was opening the Gerber.

(Best Yoda Impersonation to follow)

Ahh, indecision I see.

Make a choice you must

Obsessively hoard gadgets and have girls you can not.
Doing one prevents the other it does.

[toytoy]

How about these tools' reliability?

If you are working in the civilized world and your tool breaks, you may just replace it with another tool and send the broken tool back to the factory. However, what are you going to carry, if you're going to work in a remote place (e.g., a nuclear submarine or a space station) without any support and resupply for, maybe, a couple of years?

CORRECTION: If you're going to a space station, you'd better carry zero-torque space tools. You don't want to be spinning in space, do you? Multi-tools are for quick fixes. If you're working in a submarine, you would want to carry highest quality tools for each specific job (good pliers, good screw drivers, good wrenches).

The most life-critical use of multi-tools I can think of is a long desert trip. If your tool breaks while you are fixing your vehicle, you may end up becoming vulture food.

[Sea Monster]

The most life-critical use of multi-tools I can think of is a long desert trip. If your tool breaks while you are fixing your vehicle, you may end up becoming vulture food.

Long trips is busted up Vehicles is why the Leatherman was born in the first place.

That said - Military of various countries seem to prefer Gerber or Swiss. (But maybe those companies were more willing to offer a good deal)

[toytoy]

Isn't it a nice idea to travel in Italy in a camel caravan?

[trickknife]

The most life-critical use of multi-tools I can think of is a long desert trip. If your tool breaks while you are fixing your vehicle, you may end up becoming vulture food.

Long trips is busted up Vehicles is why the Leatherman was born in the first place.

That said - Military of various countries seem to prefer Gerber or Swiss. (But maybe those companies were more willing to offer a good deal)

When you make all your products in China like Gerber you can offer great deals. 

[toytoy]

Costs = Labor + Materials + Management + Loss ... .

Generally, big U.S. companies outsource the least critical products to China and pay Chinese manufacturers peanuts without sending QC personnel to the Chinese factories. That is why these toy companies ended up with miserable end products.

Leatherman outsource some of the parts to places such as Mexico. Their products are only "legally" Made In the U.S.A. The point is: You can't pay 25 cents and get a lobster dinner with French wine in any country of the world. The Chinese factories can only sell you cheap labor. They cannot sell you cheap steel, plastics and other raw materials. Paying too little would certainly results in compromised materials.

The big companies knew it. They decided to pocket the profits and disregard quality. If you are willing to pay reasonable money, trust me, you can still get a Chinese factory to produce good products for you. You only need to pay them real money and send someone there to check the quality.

There are bad guys in every country. There are bad factory owners who would cut all the corners in the U.S., European countries and Japan. But how much money can that save? They still have to pay so much money to the workers even if they are illegal. You can't pit a bad U.S. company against a bad Chinese company because of higher labor costs in the U.S. Basically, bad Chinese companies drive bad U.S. companies out of the market.

If I were the owner of Whatever*Mart, I want to pay manufacturers $1 for each pair of shoes and sell them at $50 each. Can a Californian sweat and blood workshop take my offer? Possibly not. Can a Chinese cheap labor factory take my offer? Possibly not these days. I may want to try Vietnamese factories who would want to take the bait. If I am willing to pay $3, I may get reasonable quality products from a Chinese company. If only I am willing to ...

Currently, China absorbed most, if not all, bad business from industrialized countries. Vietnam and India may want to catch up but they do not have the supply and manufacture chains yet (industrial infrastructure).

From a quality point of view, you may get B+ or A- products from China, if you're willing to pay reasonable money. With the same amount of money, you don't get an F product from any industrialized country because of high labor costs. However, these big companies of the U.S. choose to cut the costs, so they only get C or D products from China and let China bear the bad name.

On the other hand, it may be truly costly for a Chinese company to ship A+ products at whatever costs because they still have very few 1st class workers, technicians and their management is still not that good. The supporting infracture in China is also not that good. If you want A++ products, you may get them much cheaper from Japan or Germany because you are buying their craftsmanship and culture.

Vietnam and other late comers may not even compete with China on the B+ product business, so they ship D or F products at much cheaper prices.

One day China may manufacture A or even A+ products. By the time, big U.S. retailers would turn to cheaper countries for substandard F products and let these countries earn a bad name.

[Grant Lamontagne]

The big companies knew it. They decided to pocket the profits and disregard quality. If you are willing to pay reasonable money, trust me, you can still get a Chinese factory to produce good products for you. You only need to pay them real money and send someone there to check the quality.

I agree completely- I've been saying that for years.

Def

[toytoy]

China entered industrial age after the rise of digital consumer products. Generally, these cheap products do not require much workmanship. If you're building a mechanical wrist watch, you need to get all parts perfect. Otherwise, the watch may not be accurate. In the digital world, you need a highly controlled area, such as an IC fab. As to the stages down the manufacturing chain, you may compromise more and more. Generally, the later in the chain the less expertise required.

It takes a billion-dollar fab to make CPUs. But any kid with a little training can put together a desktop computer. Can anyone build a musical box?

European countries went from craftsmanship to mass production. The U.S. was from farms to mass production. China used to have craftsmanship but it missed much of the industrial age. Today's China entered low-end manufacturing after the 1980s. China's craftsmanship may or may not be revitalized. If no one appreciates craftsmanship, this precious culture may never be back.

Multi-tools are mass produced. They are not made by Swiss watchmakers or Japanese katana masters. They are machined by computer controlled tools. Therefore, a well organized country may produce useable multi-tools. These tools are more like McDonald's hamburgers than meals from a five star French restaurant. McDonald's never provide soup du jour because they only use B+ frozen materials. They don't need to go to a farmer's market and hunt for the A+ catch of the day.

A great chef tastes the foods and make right decisions. "Today's tomatos are very sweet so I can ..." A factory worker only does what he has been told. A good Japanese factory worker may observe the output and inform the engineer. Generally, you can only ask for so much because they are not craftsmen. I think one day, China may reach this level of sophistication.

If costs are not the first issue, a well-organized country can build good tools. You only need B+ steel of consistent quality, A+ computer controlled equipments and B assembly line workers. I mean when you have consistent flour, you can make cookies that are of the same size so you can box them. You don't need the best flour. You need very consistent flour (e.g. protein 8% +- 0.05%). However, if the tool maker pays too little, quality would suffer. This may not be a major problem with digital consumer products, but quality issues can easily kill a traditional product.

[Sea Monster]

That is why these toy companies ended up with miserable end products.

Miserable? They're great!

Some of them have been known to cause hallucinations and fevers on consumption.


As for the rest - Blah, I already had this conversation today with someone in the shop. Ain't having it again.

We've even already had at this site once..

or twice...

per month...

[tango44]

Wow, this is a doosey!

The Leatherman versus Victorinox debate will go on as long as Coke vs Pepsi, Ford vs Chevrolet, ketchup vs catsup and good vs evil will.

I look forward to reading this one!

Def

Hey you forgot Glock versus SigSauer!

I can't say wich one is better, for some reason I trust both as #1!
 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Wheelguns rule.... 

They always fire and if you can't hit what you want in 6 rounds or less, you shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place!      

Def

[Biru]

If you REALLY want to see blood pressures rise, go to a 1911 (Colt et al. .45) forum and mention "Glock." Count the times the word "tupperware" makes it appearance ad nauseum...

At the risk of offering my view on the original post, I don't think my Supertool is necessarily the superior OR the inferior of my Swisstool, just different. My one reservation about the Swisstool is that, in its greater complexity (which also results in its much smoother operation), there is always the fear of dirt or foreign objects ruining or breaking one of the springs and preventing proper use of a tool. The Supertool is more primitive in design and has somewhat more substantial tools, which lends me a feeling of greater ultimate faith in the robustness of the tool. I love both tools, but the Swisstool is like a fine watch in its elegance as well as its strength.

[Leatherman123]

I am a Colt .45 man myself. I have many guns but my other favorite would have to be the SW 1911PD that is another amazing pistol! I was never a Glock fan but they do the job! I carry a .40 on duty! To be honest I really don't like all of the plastic on the guns!