Victorinox Want To Do It or Not To Do It

[Kamtorinox]

Hi guys,

Hope you all in great condition..

Lately, more and more bizarre/weird/new tools or models brought to market by Victorinox.. Like Companion models, Synergy locking line, and La Marzocco Barista knife.. how many works, machining, financial investments on that.
So much effort..

It made me think that our beloved 84mms with scissors models being talk/discuss in this forum.. some urban legends about it.

It can be done..

But is it Victorinox want it being done or not..

That what matters most.

Just my 2 cents..

Like your guys opinion about it..

[IMR4198]

    I think it has been repeated many times that Victorinox claims they stopped making 84mm scissors because the machine broke or wore out.  This is from a company with many machinists and all the equipment to repair anything in the factory. 
    Victorinox has been bleeding down the entire 84mm line for some time now.  Someone decided that there was no need for an 84mm with scissors.  It looks like there could be few (if any) 84mm at all in the future.  There have been no new 84mm for a while now.  Many of the popular models like the Tinker Small and Tourist have been discontinued recently.  The 84mm (and the discontinued 85mm Delemont models) are a sign that the mid-sized tools are on their way out.  Soon there will likely be nothing available (or very few) between 58mm and 91mm. 
    Is that a bad thing?  I suppose the market will decide that.  Some would like to see the 65mm, 74mm, 84mm, and 85mm return.  Doesn't look like that is in Ibach's plans. 
Best wishes.  G
 

[fullbreakfast]

    I think it has been repeated many times that Victorinox claims they stopped making 84mm scissors because the machine broke or wore out.  This is from a company with many machinists and all the equipment to repair anything in the factory. 
    Victorinox has been bleeding down the entire 84mm line for some time now.  Someone decided that there was no need for an 84mm with scissors.  It looks like there could be few (if any) 84mm at all in the future.  There have been no new 84mm for a while now.  Many of the popular models like the Tinker Small and Tourist have been discontinued recently.  The 84mm (and the discontinued 85mm Delemont models) are a sign that the mid-sized tools are on their way out.  Soon there will likely be nothing available (or very few) between 58mm and 91mm. 
    Is that a bad thing?  I suppose the market will decide that.  Some would like to see the 65mm, 74mm, 84mm, and 85mm return.  Doesn't look like that is in Ibach's plans. 
Best wishes.  G
 

Indeed, I am thinking of getting a couple of extra Sportsmans / Sportsmen in case of cancellation. I missed the Tourist being deleted and had to hunt round.

Now if they ever cancel the Alox Cadet, that’s when we march on Ibach with torches and pitchforks.

[BPRoberts]

I'm surprised that 84mm hasn't already gone to alox only like the 93s. I've always found the cellidor 84s to seem a bit pointless. The size difference between them and the 91 isn't that much, and you get a much richer tool variety. The alox side, on the other hand, is more appealing. You can really save a lot of (relative) thickness on the thinner models. The cellidor Bantam feels downright chunky compared to the alox.

When they killed the 85mm line, I briefly thought it might spark a resurgence in the 84s, but it seems like the current focus is updating the 93s.

[nate j]

Of course Vic could do it if they wanted to.

The nonsense about broken machines is just that:  nonsense.

My guess is that they have done the analysis and concluded that the cost-benefit would not be favorable.  And if that’s the case, it’s hard to fault them for not doing it.



For me, the value of the 84mm line is (1) applications where minimizing size and weight are important, and or (2) there isn’t a corresponding 91mm model.

As an example of the first, I’ve been carrying an Alox Bantam in my wallet for years.  I do this so I have something more than my key chain Rambler for backup if my primary knife for the day is forgotten, lost, or loaned out; and also so I always have a can opener.  A cellidor version (whether 84mm or 91mm) would be too thick for wallet carry.  A 93mm version would be larger in every dimension.  The 84mm version is perfect for this.

As an example of the second, I think the Waiter is a very capable minimalist SAK.  However, if Vic discontinued the 84mm Waiter but brought back the 91mm Waiter, I don’t think this would have a major impact one way or the other.



OTOH, I have been around this stuff long enough to remember when the model 2008 (111mm) Soldier came out, and everyone was sure that was the beginning of the end of the 93mm line since the model 1961 (93mm) Soldier was no longer Swiss government issue.  Instead, we’ve seen something of a 93mm renaissance, with the addition of scissors, the introduction of the 93mm Companion series, and now the addition of the Synergy series.  So, the future is a hard thing to predict.
 

[Farmer X]

I'm surprised that 84mm hasn't already gone to alox only like the 93s.

That's a good point. Now that the 85mm line is gone, continuing to offer Cellidor 84mm models is probably a case of Victiorinox competing with themselves a little too much.

For me, the value of the 84mm line is (1) applications where minimizing size and weight are important, and or (2) there isn’t a corresponding 91mm model.

And anymore, I don't consider small size or very light weight to be a priority. So the 84mm line is a wash for me on that basis. However, I do like the models that have no back tools (a good example of lack of a corresponding 91mm model). The Alox Bantams I have are most likely to see carry when I'm going into Detroit, which is rare these days. So I don't see any point in acquiring more of them, or any other 84mm model.

And 58mm scissors can handle most of my scissors needs...maybe all of them. Since I don't use the scissors much anymore, I probably have enough SAKs so equipped to last me the rest of my life.

While an 84mm with scissors would be a pass for me, I suspect that the cost-benefit analysis (which has certainly been done) may have been a little off.

[Huntsman]

The Marzocco Barista is certainly a strange one - Although not too much new tooling - In fact only two new tools I guess

Pretty sure I did hear Carl Elsener himself talk about the broken 84mm scissors machine when JG visited Ibach
So I am sure it is true.

What is also possible is that they could have repaired it or built a new one, so that's not really an excuse.
However doing a cost benefit analysis and rejecting the proposition is valid - If not highly surprising and disappointing for us.   

...... I've always found the cellidor 84s to seem a bit pointless. The size difference between them and the 91 isn't that much ......

Gotta disagree with BPR on this one -  I am always surprised how much difference that 7mm makes in pocketability, convenience and weight - But of course that is just me and my findings, pockets etc etc

I wanted Vic to discontinue the 84mm line and continue w the Delemonts - But of course converting the Cadet to an 85mm Alox model, to save on manufacturing costs, as of course we could not lose that wonderful model.     

Anyways, for sure its all change in Ibach - Wondering if we will get customisable models too - There were rumours of that!!

[fullbreakfast]

While an 84mm with scissors would be a pass for me, I suspect that the cost-benefit analysis (which has certainly been done) may have been a little off.

Maybe the cost-benefit analysis was right. A few of us, me included, would really like a Climber Small or Alox Cadet X in our pocket, but that doesn’t make it a widespread feeling. I guess most people are of the same view as you and BP Roberts, that 84mm or 91mm doesn’t really make a difference.  One of the main online Victorinox dealers in the UK doesn’t even bother stocking 84mm Cellidor. That’s probably for a reason.

[Farmer X]

However doing a cost benefit analysis and rejecting the proposition is valid - If not highly surprising and disappointing for us.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm pretty sure every for-profit enterprise that can afford a bean-counter has one constantly looking at the bottom line.

I guess most people are of the same view as you and BP Roberts, that 84mm or 91mm doesn’t really make a difference.  One of the main online Victorinox dealers in the UK doesn’t even bother stocking 84mm Cellidor. That’s probably for a reason.

You are correct in that 84mm vs. 91mm doesn't make much of a difference for me. However, there are probably a fair few people out there who find the 84 more comfortable than the 91. And I took a measurement of 84 vs. 91 blades. My admittedly unscientific method showed the 84 blade being just under 2 5/8," or about 66mm. A 91 measured at 2 7/8," or about 72mm. That extra length may matter in some jurisdictions. With those two reasons in mind, I feel there is justification for Victorinox keeping the 84s around.

[Yanossauro]

Some Brazilian mememe guys are already lighting the torches.

Now if they ever cancel the Alox Cadet, that’s when we march on Ibach with torches and pitchforks.

[Petri Lipponen]

So their 84mm scissors machines broke but they discontinued existing 85mm line also… They definitely dont want to

[marlowe221]

Indeed, I am thinking of getting a couple of extra Sportsmans / Sportsmen in case of cancellation. I missed the Tourist being deleted and had to hunt round.

Now if they ever cancel the Alox Cadet, that’s when we march on Ibach with torches and pitchforks.

Wait til they introduce a 91mm Sportsman and/or Recruit. That's when you know the end is near for the 84mm line.

[Farmer X]

I don't see a 91mm Recruit being introduced. That would require tooling up new backsprings and back side scales with no Phillips/corkscrew cutout. Somehow I think the bean-counters would look at the cost involved, examine the sales of the existing 91mm line, and say the costs of that tooling amount to too much risk for too little reward.