LM Charge TTi vs. Victorinox Spirit (standard)

[Nikos]

BTW the Charge also has a ruler which the Spirit unfortunately lacks.

[DaveK]

BTW the Charge also has a ruler which the Spirit unfortunately lacks.

That I never use.

Noth, I'm not pissed off at all, and your post caused no "outbreak", I actually posted before you did on this thread. In fact, I would go as far as to say that your post(s) cause me no irritation whatsoever, as you stress that what's important varies from person to person. Unfortunately, that puts us amongst a minority. It won't take you long to find a dozen examples of what I was talking about if you choose to look. There seems to be a rash of this sort of thing on here at the moment, see if any of these sound familiar:

- Vic quality is better than anyone else;
- Anything made outside the US (or possibly Switzerland) is inferior quality or a "knock-off";
- Gerber tools are poor quality and weak;
- Leatherman tools all rust;

Not only are all of those statements totally subjective (and probably totally misguided), but they are generalisations and are frequently passed off as fact. I think that is very arrogant and does real harm to the wealth of experience and knowledge our members have.

My actual opinion of the Spirit is actually irrelevant to my point.

[Buzzbait]

The term "opinion" is what we use on this forum to pass off our bias sometimes, and I'm getting totally cheesed off with the bias at the moment. The facts to back up some of the statements on here aren't exactly flowing are they? Let's talk about the facts.

Fact - The Spirit is more rust resistant than the Charge. The Charge is not even incredibly rust resistant, due to the finish on the tools. But even if it were, it would not change the fact that the combination of the Victorinox steel and polished finish make it more rust resistant. There may be downsides to the Victorinox approach, but the fact remains that Vic makes more rust resistant tools than Leatherman. I carried a Vic Huntsman on the outside of my backpack for years, with no cleaning whatsoever, and never had a speck of rust. Less than one year of the same treatment to a stainless handled Micra yielded a rusty mess of a tool. There is a reason that Leatherman is renowned for its rustiness amongst outdoorsman.

Fact - The Spirit drivers, particularly the Philips driver, have far greater reach than the Charge bit driver. That makes the Charge utterly useless in certain situations.

Fact - The Charge is bulkier and heavier than the Spirit. The amount may be inconsequential to you, but that does not make it inconsequential to others or untrue.

Fact - The Spirit's blade has greater cutting efficiency than the either of the Charge's blades. Do some measurements of the blades. The math does not lie.

Fact - The Spirit has more outside accessible tools. This may not matter to you, but it is a big deal to others.

Fact - The Spirit sheath is less bulky than the Charge sheath. It may not matter to you, but it does to others.

Fact - The Spirit metal saw cuts far more efficiently than the Charge metal saw. Nobody can argue this one.

Fact - The Spirit is less expensive. A huge factor to many people.

Fact - The Spirit ships with an awl. The Charge does not.

I'm sorry Dave, but for my needs, the Spirit is just the better tool. Those are the facts. I can certainly see some people preferring the Charge, based on their specific needs, but to say that the Charge is the better tool, no matter what your needs are, is just a clear case of bias blindness.

I must say that this is a very fun thread. Tons and tons of various facts and opinions. It should serve very well to help people make informed purchasing decisions.

[rockyman500]

just about every one of those "facts" had an opinion on the end of them...

[Buzzbait]

just about every one of those "facts" had an opinion on the end of them...

Please point them out. 

[Leatherman123]

The Charge doesn't have a metal saw, I don't know why you keep bringing that up!   Second of all, LM is not "renowned for it's rustiness amongst outdoorsman". I don't know of any outdoorsman that carries a Spirit either!  

Not to mention, your SOL if you have gloves on and you need to get at an implement!  

BTW, on paper the Charge is a "better" tool. All the implements "work" better so to speak. But, as you said, it depends on your needs if it's the best for you. But, on paper, the Charge is the best. Most all the implements work better than the Spirit's.

Another thing is that the Spirit's handles are very slippery. The Charge's Ti handles give you a positive grip in most any situations.

Do you even own a Charge? I think you only own a New Wave, which is similar but very different!

 

One more thing I forgot to mention- the Spirit's file is made out of casehardened steel so it will eventually start chipping out. 

[rockyman500]

The term "opinion" is what we use on this forum to pass off our bias sometimes, and I'm getting totally cheesed off with the bias at the moment. The facts to back up some of the statements on here aren't exactly flowing are they? Let's talk about the facts.

Fact - The Spirit is more rust resistant than the Charge. The Charge is not even incredibly rust resistant, due to the finish on the tools. But even if it were, it would not change the fact that the combination of the Victorinox steel and polished finish make it more rust resistant. There may be downsides to the Victorinox approach, but the fact remains that Vic makes more rust resistant tools than Leatherman. I carried a Vic Huntsman on the outside of my backpack for years, with no cleaning whatsoever, and never had a speck of rust. Less than one year of the same treatment to a stainless handled Micra yielded a rusty mess of a tool. There is a reason that Leatherman is renowned for its rustiness amongst outdoorsman.

Fact - The Spirit drivers, particularly the Philips driver, have far greater reach than the Charge bit driver. That makes the Charge utterly useless in certain situations.

Fact - The Charge is bulkier and heavier than the Spirit. The amount may be inconsequential to you, but that does not make it inconsequential to others or untrue.

Fact - The Spirit's blade has greater cutting efficiency than the either of the Charge's blades. Do some measurements of the blades. The math does not lie.

Fact - The Spirit has more outside accessible tools. This may not matter to you, but it is a big deal to others.

Fact - The Spirit sheath is less bulky than the Charge sheath. It may not matter to you, but it does to others.

Fact - The Spirit metal saw cuts far more efficiently than the Charge metal saw. Nobody can argue this one.

Fact - The Spirit is less expensive. A huge factor to many people.

Fact - The Spirit ships with an awl. The Charge does not.

I'm sorry Dave, but for my needs, the Spirit is just the better tool. Those are the facts. I can certainly see some people preferring the Charge, based on their specific needs, but to say that the Charge is the better tool, no matter what your needs are, is just a clear case of bias blindness.

I must say that this is a very fun thread. Tons and tons of various facts and opinions. It should serve very well to help people make informed purchasing decisions.

The amount may be inconsequential to you, but that does not make it inconsequential to others or untrue.

 This may not matter to you, but it is a big deal to others.

Nobody can argue this one.
-----------------------

OK, not every one...

[Buzzbait]

The amount may be inconsequential to you, but that does not make it inconsequential to others or untrue.

That is a fact. It is not inconsequential to me, and it is not untrue.

This may not matter to you, but it is a big deal to others.

Again, this is a fact. It is a big deal to me.

Nobody can argue this one.

Okay, this may not be a fact. A person could argue the point, but they'd be wrong.

[rockyman500]

well I got one 

[Buzzbait]

Second of all, LM is not "renowned for it's rustiness amongst outdoorsman". I don't know of any outdoorsman that carries a Spirit either!  

Try heading over to Bladeforums "Wilderness & Survival Skills" subforum. Lots of very knowledgeable outdoorsmen there. You will find many examples of both there.

Do you even own a Charge? I think you only own a New Wave, which is similar but very different!

I have a nice collection of multitools. For Leatherman I own a PST, Pulse, Original Wave, new style Wave, Blast, Juice CS4, multiple Micras, and a Squirt E4. I have also owned a Charge Ti and Supertool 200, but traded them away. I own more Vics than I can count. I even have a few nice Gerbers. I've been using multitools since a few years after the PST first came out.

[Buzzbait]

- Anything made outside the US (or possibly Switzerland) is inferior quality or a "knock-off";
- Gerber tools are poor quality and weak;

At least I agree with Dave on these points.

I am a huge fan of Japanese manufacturing. I also have a number of European made knives of exceptional quality.

I own a few Gerbers. My custom Scout flat out rocks. The best multitool for fishing yet made. Love the snap-out pliers and Remgrit blade. Very stainless too.

[Leatherman123]

Your not going to pick apart my other comments, this is quite fun!  

What's your custom Scout? IMO, the Pulse is the best fishing tool; and I'm dieing to get my hands on another to actually take fishing! Oh, and I can tell your a bass fisherman! 

[Buzzbait]

Your not going to pick apart my other comments, this is quite fun!  

What's your custom Scout? IMO, the Pulse is the best fishing tool; and I'm dieing to get my hands on another to actually take fishing! Oh, and I can tell your a bass fisherman! 

The custom Scout came from the Gerber website years ago. They had this thing where you could design your own Gerber. You chose the plier head, the inside tools, the tool finish and the color of the handles. I had mine done in yellow so I could see it if I dropped it while night fishing.

The Pulse (best Leatherman tool ever made) is also a very good fishing tool. As long as you keep the lock bar toward your palm, you can butterfly those pliers open very easily and safely. I absolutely love the smoothness of the Pulse. The tools clump a bit, but it is otherwise an extraordinary tool. The fit and finish of my Pulse is just light years ahead of Leatherman's current offerings. If it weren't for the Spirit, I'd still be carrying my Pulse.

There is nothing to pick apart on those comments. You are correct, the Spirit is slippery. I'm working on a creative solution to that problem. It is hard to use the Spirit implements with gloved hands, although I'd say the same for any multitool. The Charge is quite excellent on paper. In fact it is an excellent tool. It's just not the right tool for my everyday life.

[Leatherman123]

Could you please take a pic of your Gerber? Also, what if you put skateboarding "grip tape" on the handles of the Spirit? It's not super ideal, but it would give you better grip!

[Buzzbait]

Could you please take a pic of your Gerber? Also, what if you put skateboarding "grip tape" on the handles of the Spirit? It's not super ideal, but it would give you better grip!

I tried that, but the grip tape was just a bit too aggressive for my tastes. Very sand paper-like. The best thing I've come up with, so far, is those stick-on white tub treads used for bath tubs. They do help the grip somewhat, and make the Spirit look like some sort of freaky shaped Ipod. 

I'll try to take a pic of the Gerber tomorrow.

[Leatherman123]

Sounds good! I wish I would have gotten to mod my own Gerber! 

[DaveK]

The term "opinion" is what we use on this forum to pass off our bias sometimes, and I'm getting totally cheesed off with the bias at the moment. The facts to back up some of the statements on here aren't exactly flowing are they? Let's talk about the facts.

Fact - The Spirit is more rust resistant than the Charge. The Charge is not even incredibly rust resistant, due to the finish on the tools. But even if it were, it would not change the fact that the combination of the Victorinox steel and polished finish make it more rust resistant. There may be downsides to the Victorinox approach, but the fact remains that Vic makes more rust resistant tools than Leatherman. I carried a Vic Huntsman on the outside of my backpack for years, with no cleaning whatsoever, and never had a speck of rust. Less than one year of the same treatment to a stainless handled Micra yielded a rusty mess of a tool. There is a reason that Leatherman is renowned for its rustiness amongst outdoorsman.

Fact - The Spirit drivers, particularly the Philips driver, have far greater reach than the Charge bit driver. That makes the Charge utterly useless in certain situations.

Fact - The Charge is bulkier and heavier than the Spirit. The amount may be inconsequential to you, but that does not make it inconsequential to others or untrue.

Fact - The Spirit's blade has greater cutting efficiency than the either of the Charge's blades. Do some measurements of the blades. The math does not lie.

Fact - The Spirit has more outside accessible tools. This may not matter to you, but it is a big deal to others.

Fact - The Spirit sheath is less bulky than the Charge sheath. It may not matter to you, but it does to others.

Fact - The Spirit metal saw cuts far more efficiently than the Charge metal saw. Nobody can argue this one.

Fact - The Spirit is less expensive. A huge factor to many people.

Fact - The Spirit ships with an awl. The Charge does not.

I'm sorry Dave, but for my needs, the Spirit is just the better tool. Those are the facts. I can certainly see some people preferring the Charge, based on their specific needs, but to say that the Charge is the better tool, no matter what your needs are, is just a clear case of bias blindness.

I must say that this is a very fun thread. Tons and tons of various facts and opinions. It should serve very well to help people make informed purchasing decisions.

 

Most of these aren't facts at all, they are characteristics of the Spirit that you prefer or have become deluded about. Some of them are absolute fantasy.

I really cannot be bothered to take each comment and dissect it, I already have several times and I don't have the energy to keep repeating myself. I guess people will believe what they want to believe at the end of the day.

The rust thing though, I can't let go. When it comes to Leatherman tools, there are few people who would have more experience and exposure to them than I do (I own over 100), whereas your "fact" seems to be based on your experience of one tool. Because you had some rust on a Leatherman, but not on an SAK, that makes it a fact does it? Not a generalisation based on your limited experience? I, and other members here will tell you that we have seen far more rust problems on Vic products than on Leatherman. I suspect from your general posting "style" though, that you'll probably just dismiss that.

And what use is a longer driver if the damn thing will jump out of the screw head at the slightest application of force? The Vic drivers are next to useless, even most hardened Vic fanatic would admit that.

In fact for all of your subsequent points. see above 

It isn't fun at all, it's ridiculous and I'm about done with it.

[Roadie]

Most of these aren't facts at all, they are characteristics of the Spirit that you prefer or have become deluded about. Some of them are absolute fantasy.

Actually Dave

The Spirit drivers are longer - photographic evidence can be provided i'm sure
The Spirit is lighter - as per Def's measurements
The Spirit does have more outside accessible tools - see specs of each tool
The Spirit sheath is smaller than the Charges - again photographic evidence can be provided
The Spirit is less expensive £60.95 vs £108.97
The Spirit does have an awl - see spec's of each tool

They are facts, and can be proven with measurement. The others points are up for discussion but your claim that most of them aren't facts is not true,  6/9 is most in my eyes

Don't get me wrong you know how I feel about this sort of thing (Link) but you can't argue with the above points. Yes the drivers may not work as well, but they are longer. The outside opening tools might not work as well for you but there is more of them.

Ryan "what have i walked in to" Smith

[Mr. Whippy]

All this nitpicking...

Here's the bottom line:

Which comes with a stapler?


Enough said.

 

[J-sews]

Gents, I think we can all agree that the line between fact, generalization, and opinion can become blurred, especially among different individuals.

With that in mind, lets please keep this discussion civil and respectful. 

[Crouton]

Each Multi has it's good points, that's why none of us only own ONE. 

We all pick one as our favorite, or one per each different situation we find ourselves in.

So there will always be differences in what each of us prizes in a multi. 

I for one find threads like this to be healthy and precisely why why I spend so much time here.  It's great to see so many people that actually care passionately about a Multitool.  It's discourses like this one that make us think about what we like and don't like and could actually have a hand in improving upcoming generations of multis.

Play on guys, but remember that we are all members of the Brotherhood of the Multi(BOM), so we are all Da Bom.

[Magic Bus]

This has been an enjoyable read, thanks everyone  I have both tools and I don't reckon either of them is perfect. I tend to carry the Spirit more due to it's friendly looking blade, and I also prefer the blunter plier tips, but that's just my take on things 

[Benner]

All this nitpicking...

Here's the bottom line:

Which comes with a stapler?


Enough said.

 

 

You just won't be happy until everyone owns one will you? 

[DaveK]

Most of these aren't facts at all, they are characteristics of the Spirit that you prefer or have become deluded about. Some of them are absolute fantasy.

Actually Dave

The Spirit drivers are longer - photographic evidence can be provided i'm sure
The Spirit is lighter - as per Def's measurements
The Spirit does have more outside accessible tools - see specs of each tool
The Spirit sheath is smaller than the Charges - again photographic evidence can be provided
The Spirit is less expensive £60.95 vs £108.97
The Spirit does have an awl - see spec's of each tool

They are facts, and can be proven with measurement. The others points are up for discussion but your claim that most of them aren't facts is not true,  6/9 is most in my eyes

Don't get me wrong you know how I feel about this sort of thing (Link) but you can't argue with the above points. Yes the drivers may not work as well, but they are longer. The outside opening tools might not work as well for you but there is more of them.

Ryan "what have i walked in to" Smith

You know what I meant, but if it helps, then "significant parts of your argument aren't facts". And if you read through the considerable number of similarly themed posts on this forum about the things I listed, it probably would be most anyway.

Just reading through the replies on this thread and it's funny. The majority of posts are oozing common sense. Periodically this happens, then people slip back into blinkered, biased diatribe. What I find most funny though is that my initial irony in proclaiming the Charge as a "better" tool than the Spirit has a few people condemning their own posting styles. Anyone taking the time to look will see many posts on here, without a trace of irony. Bizarre.

And Mr. W, I have made no secret of the fact that I will readily give you $20 for you Wenger Business Tool. I might even be tempted to go to $25

[cliosguy]

All this nitpicking...

Here's the bottom line:

Which comes with a stapler?


Enough said.

 

wheres the official business tool owners club thread

[Mr. Whippy]

All this nitpicking...

Here's the bottom line:

Which comes with a stapler?


Enough said.

 

wheres the official business tool owners club thread

All your threadz belongz to us.






 

[cliosguy]

All this nitpicking...

Here's the bottom line:

Which comes with a stapler?


Enough said.

 

wheres the official business tool owners club thread

All your threadz belongz to us.






 

LOL

[Dunc]

Wow, this took me such a long time and barely anyone replied! 

  Wow bet you didn't see this coming 

Great thread and I've really enjoyed it . I'm not going to try and put my opinion forward . The tool I carry is governed by what I need it to do .None is better then the other .This is turning into a BMW is better then Mercedes kind of too and throwing .
  If we all agreed on just one tool then this place would not excist and the big tool companies would stop trying to inproove their products .

Dunc

[cliosguy]

Wow, this took me such a long time and barely anyone replied! 

  Wow bet you didn't see this coming 

Great thread and I've really enjoyed it . I'm not going to try and put my opinion forward . The tool I carry is governed by what I need it to do .None is better then the other .This is turning into a BMW is better then Mercedes kind of too and throwing .
  If we all agreed on just one tool then this place would not excist and the big tool companies would stop trying to inproove their products .

Dunc

+1 on that

[Nikos]

Oh yes... and vi rulez, emacs sucks...