Why am I getting that strange feeling that this guy may be RIGHT

[Pacu]

Anyone ever read 1984 and Animal Farm? Orwell woke up to see what he believed in shattered by human corruption.

All animals are equal! But some are more equal then others!

[american lockpicker]

In animal farm the pigs turn into capitalists. Also 1984 was about Totalitarianism.

[Pacu]

Instead of individual poverty, there is universal poverty. A fundamental flaw in Leninism-Marxism is the idea of a zero sum game in comparison to capitalism. If someone is rich, that means that someone is poor. In reality, it is not a zero sum game. Wealth creation creates more wealth. Look at the United States - our standard of living is far beyond anything that the USSR could ever imagine. Vice President Richard Nixon pointed this out to Premier Kruschev in the 1959 "Kitchen Debate." On the contrary, when you're cut is equal to everyone elses, then there is no incentive to perform (except a minimal standard that prevents your all expenses paid vacation, with free room and board at the gulag, to Siberia).

[Grant Lamontagne]

A little known fact....


The first testicular guard "Cup" was used in Hockey in 1874 and the first helmet was used in 1974.

It took 100 years for men to realize that the brain is also important.


Def

[american lockpicker]

Instead of individual poverty, there is universal poverty. A fundamental flaw in Leninism-Marxism is the idea of a zero sum game in comparison to capitalism. If someone is rich, that means that someone is poor. In reality, it is not a zero sum game. Wealth creation creates more wealth. Look at the United States - our standard of living is far beyond anything that the USSR could ever imagine. Vice President Richard Nixon pointed this out to Premier Kruschev in the 1959 "Kitchen Debate." On the contrary, when you're cut is equal to everyone elses, then there is no incentive to perform (except a minimal standard that prevents your all expenses paid vacation, with free room and board at the gulag, to Siberia).

How could communism put people in poverty(look at china)? Also wouldn't you rather when your working to have the profits from your work go to you and your fellow workers instead of getting a fraction like you do now and the rest going to the owner and stock investors(glorified gamblers).

[Mr. Whippy]

Instead of individual poverty, there is universal poverty. A fundamental flaw in Leninism-Marxism is the idea of a zero sum game in comparison to capitalism. If someone is rich, that means that someone is poor. In reality, it is not a zero sum game. Wealth creation creates more wealth. Look at the United States - our standard of living is far beyond anything that the USSR could ever imagine. Vice President Richard Nixon pointed this out to Premier Kruschev in the 1959 "Kitchen Debate." On the contrary, when you're cut is equal to everyone elses, then there is no incentive to perform (except a minimal standard that prevents your all expenses paid vacation, with free room and board at the gulag, to Siberia).

How could communism put people in poverty(look at china)? Also wouldn't you rather when your working to have the profits from your work go to you and your fellow workers instead of getting a fraction like you do now and the rest going to the owner and stock investors(glorified gamblers).

A few points:
1.  China's emergence as a global economic power has been fueled by a modified capitalism (somewhat limited) but allowing people to financially benefit from their work and productivity.

2.  Most people are willing to work hard to benefit their family, but less so to help their lazier neighbors.  (Do you give your hard earned money to help out the sloucher down the street?)

3.  If you knew you could make 10X what you're making now by working hard at school and sacrificing now, would you still put yourself through the same sacrifice if your effort went to benefit others, but you gained nothing?

While you may say yes, most (myself included) would not.  Most would take the less arduous path (as what actually happens in truly marxist systems).  Stick and carrot works for horses, dogs, and people.

[Pacu]

Instead of individual poverty, there is universal poverty. A fundamental flaw in Leninism-Marxism is the idea of a zero sum game in comparison to capitalism. If someone is rich, that means that someone is poor. In reality, it is not a zero sum game. Wealth creation creates more wealth. Look at the United States - our standard of living is far beyond anything that the USSR could ever imagine. Vice President Richard Nixon pointed this out to Premier Kruschev in the 1959 "Kitchen Debate." On the contrary, when you're cut is equal to everyone elses, then there is no incentive to perform (except a minimal standard that prevents your all expenses paid vacation, with free room and board at the gulag, to Siberia).

How could communism put people in poverty(look at china)? Also wouldn't you rather when your working to have the profits from your work go to you and your fellow workers instead of getting a fraction like you do now and the rest going to the owner and stock investors(glorified gamblers).

 In capitalism, you have the ability to choose whether to succeed or fail in life. The harder you work, the more successful you will probably become, and vice versa. However, in a communist country, it doesn't matter whether you work 5 hours or 15 hours. As long as your daily quota is met you will receive what everybody else receives, even though somebody might've worked harder than you. I've known people who went to Soviet factories and they said that there was no initiative or drive to excel in any way, shape or form. There was incredible amounts of idleness in the factories, as the workers would do nothing except drink vodka for hours once their work was done (this is why a lot of Russians are alcoholics, as they had nothing better to do in the factory other than drink). This would continue until the whistle was blown, signalling the end of the work day. Then the workers would go home to their miserable little hovels, preparing themselves for the next day.

A dreary, mindless routine.

[Pacu]

and with that i'm exiting the political debate.
No hard feelings as i respect the right of everyone expressing their opinions.
so 

 

[american lockpicker]

I think I'll leave the debate too.

[ducktapehero]

And anyway what do you have against everyone being well paid?

I don't have a problem with people being paid what they're worth. However, just look at the American auto industry to see what happens when everyone is "well paid".

[turbov21]

Well, America had a good run!

You thought that too??

Well, not entirely, no...I'm just not entirely sure how to answer.  I worry about America losing it's sense of capitalism (and with it, its work ethic and innovative streak), but right now, I'm not sure I can disagree with the article entirely.

I think the main problem is America is grossly over-valued economically right now, with the dollar as strong as it is (even as weak as it is) and the Internet making the world a smaller place, I think for a while we're going to see America suffer.  Once oil goes back up, and shipping becomes expensive; once the Indian Rupee and Chinese Yuan gain value, making it not as cost effective to have factories producing American goods(1); and once a lot big companies get restructured...I hope to see capitalism (and all that comes with it) return.

But now, it's hard to see that.

(1. I say that with the understanding that at such a point, I assume both countries will have a stronger domestic market that'll boost their economies from within.)

[665ae]

I had a lot to agree with until the end when he seemingly started blaming the liberals and the homosexuals.

Any extremist argument, in my opinion, is always flawed.

+1

[665ae]

And anyway what do you have against everyone being well paid?

I don't have a problem with people being paid what they're worth. However, just look at the American auto industry to see what happens when everyone is "well paid".

Wow... I was enjoying this discussion until that line popped up...  Who are you referring to as "everyone"

[ducktapehero]

If you're referring to my statement, I was talking about the people who work for "The Big 3" themselves, not suppliers and such.

[665ae]

That's what I was hoping you wouldn't say...

Anyone that believes the auto workers are responsible for the downfall of the US Auto Companies needs to do a bit more research...  In an effort to keep things civil, I'll only say this. 

I'm sick and f'n tired of people thinking the Union, and the people that work for them, are at fault for everything that's wrong with the "Big 3."  Failure starts are the f'n top, and if those jackasses would get their f'n acts together, we wouldn't be in anywhere near as much trouble as we are.   I'm also sick and tired of people listening to the damn news and thinking I, as a Union Auto Worker, make some ungodly amount of money, because I don't.  For a while the news kept reporting that UAW workers were averaging $100 an hour (adding in an ESTIMATED amount for benefits.)  I can honestly tell you, that I nor anyone I work with (some with 30+ years of seniority) DO NOT make anywhere near $100 an hour, even with adding in an ESTIMATED amount for benefits.  The "plant" I work at is all Salary Bargaining Unit workers, which normally earns a larger amount of money than Hourly Bargaining Unit workers (assembly plant) contractually...

[/rant]

[Nikos]

Here's just a little relevant online article <clicky>. As anything on the news or the net, take it with a grain of salt. The comments are also a quite interesting read.

[cgk]

I know many out of work auto workers, the local GM plant closed this year.  It was not their fault the company was still making large  gas hogs despite the trend towards smaller more economical vehicles.

[Pacu]

Yeah i'm back in this thread


Wonder if we will all get a mass produced one color no frills "peoples car" from the amerikan government auto industry.

[american lockpicker]

If its enirerly American made I will buy one. 

[ducktapehero]

I'm sick and f'n tired of people thinking the Union, and the people that work for them, are at fault for everything that's wrong with the "Big 3."  Failure starts are the f'n top, and if those jackasses would get their f'n acts together, we wouldn't be in anywhere near as much trouble as we are.

1st of all, I didn't specifically mention the Union, guilty conscience? 2nd, though, I never said that union guys made $100 bucks an hour. However, I know for a fact that STARTING wage at the Claycomo Ford plant was something like $22 an hour. And that was several years ago.

I'm sorry if this offends you but yeah, a lot of guys out there are grossly overpaid. And let's not forget the FACT that these same OVERPAID Union workers still made crappier cars than  lower paid non-union people in other car companies. Those are FACTS. Yeah, NOW they're making decent cars but that's only after getting their asses handed to them on a plate by the Japanese for 30 years.

I've worked in Union jobs before, I've seen the BS that the Union can make a company go through before getting rid of a useless employee. I've also seen how seniority, instead of competency, is the primary factor when deciding to give raises and promotions. I've seen the old timers know just how much goofing around they can do before getting in trouble because they know the union will protect them. And I worked at for the US Postal Service, that is the absolute worst you can get. A government union job. Those people who shot up the Post Offices back in the 90's? 2 weeks w/o pay was their punishment. OK I'm joking about that. But as you can imagine it's almost impossible to get fired from there.


I don't have a with the concept of a Union protecting the employees from workplace abuses but it is a simple fact that the UAW has definitely weakened the Big 3's competitive edge by demanding these huge wages AND top of the line benefits.
 

However, like you said, management did their share in screwing everything up. Their short sightedness and reliance on SUV's and big trucks when the price of oil is anything but a sure market was about as stupid as stupid can get. Plus they themselves were also grossly overpaid. So yeah, I stand by my statement, the US auto industry is a perfect example of what happens when everyone(and I do mean everyone, union AND management) is well(over)paid.  

[Pacu]

Yeah....but let's say you were overpaid. Who in their right mind would want that system to end ? Money in the pocket sure goes a long way these days. Sure the end result sucks but i would ride that horse until it fell over dead...which is right about now.

[ducktapehero]

Yeah....but let's say you were overpaid. Who in their right mind would want that system to end ? Money in the pocket sure goes a long way these days. Sure the end result sucks but i would ride that horse until it fell over dead...which is right about now.

I didn't say I blamed them for trying to keep their jobs. But one of the problems in this country is, and I've said it before, everyone thinks they're worth 50 bucks an hour.

[Mr. Whippy]

GM's problems are multifactorial:

1.  Leadership.  Rather than run parallel development projects with the wildly popular Saturn brand, they bled off profits to expand the SUV offerings and expand into the Financial industry (GMAC and DiTech).  The only "Green" component to their business operations was bled dry of  resources to keep it current and competitive with Toyota and Honda.  Add to that the Freakin' arrogance of the GM management.  Talk about a room full of pompous, spoiled old white guys COMPLETELY out of touch with the real world.  They wouldn't know what the average American needed/wanted in a car if it rammed them on the freeway. (Trucks, OTOH, they were pretty good with).  Management was a bloated group of essentially nepotists.

2.  Legacy costs.  Historically, GM f'd themselves by taking an adversarial position against the unions, fighting their own version of the cold war.  Contracts were signed out of convenience and plans were made to get around terms as much as possible (such as not actually fundiing retirement commitments).  The power of compounding caught up with them.

3.  The economic crash of 08.  The otherwise reliable Financials units of DiTech and GMAC suddenly were looking at HUGE losses.  Instead of being the primary source of income for GM, they were a giant fianancial boat anchor.

4.  Fuel crisis of 08.  Insiders trying to protect themselves shifted money into Oil Futures, trying to get refuge from the impending financial crisis.  This led to the sudden collapse of the SUV market.  With nothing else on tap, GM was caught out with a lot of gas hungry behemoths.   Of course, the oil speculators then were caught out and had to sell their futures at big losses to cover all the leverage calls that came in the crash.  This stuck a fork in Toyota's Prius program, however with other products (Camry, Corolla, Small Pickups) they are better diversified

5.  UAW.  No doubt about it, Union workers are more expensive than non-union workers.  Add to that, it is much harder to downsize the work force when necessary.  Toyota, Honda and Subaru can just shutter factories and cut costs without having to pay nonworking, workers.  There are also plenty of examples of big time UAW excesses in contracts (Job Banks come to mind amongst other things).  However, when things were good GM could take the extra cost, but in bad times, it was very hard to get even minor concessions.  The biggest fallout of this bankruptcy could be the end of the UAW.

GM looked more like a corrupt banana republic than a corporate competitor.

[Pacu]

Yeah....but let's say you were overpaid. Who in their right mind would want that system to end ? Money in the pocket sure goes a long way these days. Sure the end result sucks but i would ride that horse until it fell over dead...which is right about now.

I didn't say I blamed them for trying to keep their jobs. But one of the problems in this country is, and I've said it before, everyone thinks they're worth 50 bucks an hour.

All these kids really don't understand the value of the dollar either. Mommy and Daddy has given them everything..ipods, xboxes, cars, and money. Now that kid expects to maintain that lifestyle of consuming merchandise working as a tire jockey at Walmart.

Sure i'd love to be making 50 bucks an hour but it's not gonna happen without a Harvard degree, slinging rock on the corner, or the lottery. I should be hearing back from Harvard any day now

[Nikos]

Yeah....but let's say you were overpaid. Who in their right mind would want that system to end ? Money in the pocket sure goes a long way these days. Sure the end result sucks but i would ride that horse until it fell over dead...which is right about now.

I didn't say I blamed them for trying to keep their jobs. But one of the problems in this country is, and I've said it before, everyone thinks they're worth 50 bucks an hour.

All these kids really don't understand the value of the dollar either. Mommy and Daddy has given them everything..ipods, xboxes, cars, and money. Now that kid expects to maintain that lifestyle of consuming merchandise working as a tire jockey at Walmart.

Sure i'd love to be making 50 bucks an hour but it's not gonna happen without a Harvard degree, slinging rock on the corner, or the lottery. I should be hearing back from Harvard any day now

Ummm, nope. Harvard degree alone is not enough...

[turbov21]

Maybe if you sling rock on the corner at Harvard...