walmart supporting national healthcare

[sappyg]

i just heard a radio advertisement spot on a country radio station from walmart of all things supporting "an affordable national healthcare program for all americans"........ i think i'm going to be sick. 
1. why would walmart advertise for such a thing unless they were going to get money out of the deal?
2. they sell all manner of products... even eyecare and tax filings... i gues now we are going to see on call doctors and out patient surgery next.
3. they screw their own employees out of wages and bennifits.
4. it's a retail chain.... not a hospital.
5. maybe they want to dump what bennifits they have to pay for their empoyees on the gov't.

the spot add was disturbing.

can anyone tell me what is so great about socialized medicine or soSmurfpillsm in general? how is the medical system in the UK or Canada and why walmart is paing money to advertise for national healthcare on the radio? 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am going to watch this one very closely because of the political content, however I will also say that I feel that socialized medicine is a great thing.  I know that I am not going to be refused treatment anywhere, and that no faceless agency is going to deny me service on a technicality.  And, before you say that doesn't happen outside of Michael Moore films, remember that as an investigator, it used to be my job to find reasons for insurance companies to not pay up, and I'll tell you, at least when I was on the case, more people lost than won.

Wal Mart supporting it would be almost enough for me to change my mind on the whole mess though- I hate Wal Mart....

Def

[Pacu]

We might as well go to a nationalized heath care. Seems like the leechers are bleeding us dry anyway. I might as well get in line like a herd of cattle and wait for the grim reaper to collect me. Let's see...can i go to the Post Office, the DMV, the Social Security Office and the doctor in the same month? No.  I'll die of old age before then.

[sappyg]

Wal Mart supporting it would be almost enough for me to change my mind on the whole mess though- I hate Wal Mart....

Def

yes my thoughts exactly. i'm suspicious of walmarts motives. i don't like what they have become. the fact that they (walmart), are advertising it in a radio spot somehow cheapins the issue for me.

to date my experiences with my insurance company has been good. others i know have had bad experiences insurance companies. i steer clear of those companies that give poor service.

there is no intention to cause unrest amongst the forum. if that be the case please lock this thread. i figured that since this is the breakroom that it was an open topic. most, if not all, Americans are not familiar with socialized healthcare. i was hoping for a discussion from others that have a healthcare system similar to the one walmart is advertising.

[ringzero]

I am going to watch this one very closely because of the political content, however I will also say that I feel that socialized medicine is a great thing.

If it's so great, then why do so many Canadians come to the U.S. for their medical care?

Not just for experimental cancer treatments, but for routine things like joint replacement, cardiology, MRI scans, and even to give birth!

There must be a reason, wonder what it could be...

.

[Anthony]

The whole nationalized heathcare is fishy, and I don't trust it one bit.  Why are Americans screaming in the faces of their representatives?  Why are they being arrested and manhandled?  These aren't professional protesters either or rent a mobs.  Something is wrong, and many people know it and many are taking notice.  Town hall meetings are being cancelled in America and the representatives are nowhere to be found.

The American government shoulden't exist to take care of anyone from the time they are conceived until they are put six feet under, and that is the basis of what this government wants.

Where is all this swine flu by the way?

[Anthony]

One story, but something to consider.  It's a video, and about 5 minutes long.

http://www.breitbart.tv/father-of-handicapped-son-received-threats-after-confrontation-with-rep-dingell/


Another, here's the jist of this one if you don't want to read the whole thing;

The Obama administration has launched a new Web site to battle what it calls "wild rumors" about the health care reform plans being pushed through Congress -- including an invitation for the public to tattle on any other "myths" they come across.

It comes a week after the White House asked the public to send in "fishy" information about health care reform.

This alone is outrageous.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/10/white-house-launches-web-site-battle-health-care-rumors/

[Mike 56]

Walmart is toying with the idea of opening health clinics in there stores. I don't know about other countries but but the U.S. government has a hard time  running anything. The I.R.S. took over the Mustang Ranch one of the most profitable brothels ever and made it go bankrupt with in a year.
Mike

[Chako]

Overall, the Canadian Health system runs rather smooth, and most Canadians do not have to worry about getting sick, or insurance.

However, like all systems, there are issues. We do get some long wait times depending on where you live etc. Some Canadians find it better for them to go to the US and get it done immediately and pay for it, then wait. Likewise, we also tend to lose doctors, as they can get paid more working in the US then up here, and not have to worry about any quotas etc…

Like everything else, there are issues. It is a point of Canadian pride to boast and complain of our system in the same breath. 

However, overall, it is a good system, and Canadians get all rather ticked off to an extreme extent when the Government plays around with the system...and that should tell you something rather then fear mongering.

The downside, you have to pay for it with taxes. The upside, nobody is refused health care and it is there when you need it...always. Most Canadians will tell you the upsides far outweighs the downsides, and Governments who toy with the notion of reducing the system tend to not last very long in office.

As for Walmart...that is just plain dumb. Since when should a retail chain with a bad rep for destroying communities have a say in health care?

[Grant Lamontagne]

I am going to watch this one very closely because of the political content, however I will also say that I feel that socialized medicine is a great thing.

If it's so great, then why do so many Canadians come to the U.S. for their medical care?

Not just for experimental cancer treatments, but for routine things like joint replacement, cardiology, MRI scans, and even to give birth!

There must be a reason, wonder what it could be...

.

Probably the same reason many US residents come up here and pretend to be Canadian in order to get free benefits.  No system is perfect, and people can find fault in anything. 

Def

[tcolling]

How is the Canadian system financed? In other words, is it financed by general income or VAT-style taxes on everyone, or is it financed by "fees" (taxes) on employers, or what?  I'm very interested in that question, because here in the U.S. the current government seems determined to make employers pay for all the free things that the government wants to give to voters.   

- Tim

[Grant Lamontagne]

Roughly about 20% of my income goes to the government for taxes, which is distributed amongst various things- health care, military, fire, you name it.  Whatever the government wants to spend it on.

When I get sick I can see my doctor (my choice of doctor), or a duty doctor if he/she is busy.  This doesn't cost me anything, and he/she will write me a prescription for whatever I need.  I pay for the prescription, except in my case, my wife and I have a drug plan through her employer, so I only pay a fraction of the prescription costs, but that's us, not the national system.  If I need to see a speSmurfpillst, there can be a long wait as it's often priority based- it took almost two years for me to see the top man in the city about the post traumatic arthritis in my foot, but only a week or so to see the top knee guy in the city when I had to take medical leave from work.  Again, my visit to the speSmurfpillst is paid for, as is the trip to see the woman that makes my orthotics, although I pay for those myself.  Again, my employer and my wife's help out with that.

When I crushed my foot I went to the Emergency room, had numerous x rays, went through a dozen or so casts, surgery, including the installation of a steel plate and 8 screws and all the trimmings and the only thing it cost me was parking at the hospital.  Ditto for physiotherapy- all paid for, even the meals and room I spent a couple of nights in, and the food I ate while there.  They didn't even charge for the food that wouldn't stay eaten! 

When I have kidney stones I go to the ER, get filled full or morphine and Gravol and spend the day there, occasionally being visited by nurses and having the meds topped up.  X-rays and MRI's are done sometimes to get an idea of how bad it is, and whether I should get surgery again (also paid for) or whether I should tough it out.  Follow up trips to the urologist are paid for as well.

In fact, other than "take home" kind of stuff like prescriptions, braces and orthotics, pretty well everything is paid for by the government, and the only real draw back is that sometimes I have to wait a bit for service- up to a few hours in the ER, a couple of days to see my family doctor or even months to see a speSmurfpillst for a non emergency appointment.  Medical equipment is up to date, not the aging equipment or surplus that we are rumored to have, and in fact, we have one of the top medical schools in North America less than ten miles away.

I don't see a problem with socialized medicine- in fact, I think it is a great thing.  From what I understand, the UK's system is even better than ours.  At the risk of stepping on anyone's toes or upsetting anyone, I think that a lot of the bad stuff people in the US are told about it is pure propaganda supported and distributed by the folks that make a fortune off overcharging for services and insurance that will pay guys like me $9,000 to find a reason not to pay you $10,000 for medical services you need.  I'll admit I am biased about insurance companies though- they may not be as bad as I think, and not all of them may be in that class either, but you would be amazed at how willing insurance companies are to screw you over, and I can't bring myself to have faith in them.  Like I said, that's my bias though, your mileage may differ.

I know the term "Socialized" really strikes fear in the hearts of many, as it draws up images of the old Soviet Union/Red Army/Iron Curtain thing, but remember, many services like Search and Rescue, Law Enforcement and Fire Departments are socialized, and where would people be today if they weren't?  The whole idea reminds me of this commercial- funny, but it illustrates the idea quite graphically I think!



Now as much as I support socialized medicine, I also think that corporations, especially evil ones like Wal Mart should stay the heck out of it.  Of course with socialized medicine it would be under government control, not private hands, so it would actually be safer from companies like Wal Mart because the government is about the only organization that can out-spend the giant blue monster.  If Wal Mart wanted to control the medical industry as it stands now it would simply have to start offering student loans and scholarship plans to med students in exchange for so many years of service on graduation.  Then, Wal Mart could set up legitimate medical offices on or near their own property and offer discounts on prescriptions to encourage patients to become patrons.  At least, that's what I would do if I was Wal Mart, and maybe that's the point- maybe Wal Mart is using reverse psychology to make people revile socialized medicine as much as they do smock people! 

Def

[tcolling]

So Grant, employers don't pay anything toward the socialized medicine system there?

- Tim

[Grant Lamontagne]

I believe it comes from their income tax as well.  And, companies often split the cost of Blue Cross with their employees, but that's usually only companies big enough for that to be worthwhile, and it isn't mandatory.

Def

[ducktapehero]

One thing fans of socialized(or Nationalized or gov't run etc etc) healthcare always forget when comparing the Health care systems of other countries and the proposed US system is the size and economic diversity of the US. Canada has roughly 34 million people, The Netherlands has 16 million people, France has 65 million , the UK has 61 million, etc etc while the USA has 300 million and is growing. It is comparing apples to oranges. If you want to see how socialized medicine works in a big country look at the former Soviet Union and China.

If you want to see how well the US gov't does healthcare ask a disabled vet how much he likes the infamous VA(veterans administration) hospitals.

I've seen it and I gotta tell you, YOU DO NOT WANT THE US GOVERNMENT RUNNING YOUR HEALTH CARE!!!!


Edited to add: I'm sure a lot of businesses will support gov't run health care, it means they no longer have to worry about providing it. But IMHO, if both the gov't AND big business want something the individual taxpayer had better think twice about it.

[ducktapehero]

I also think that corporations, especially evil ones like Wal Mart should stay the heck out of it.

Corporations aren't nearly as "evil" as governments.

[tcolling]

I believe it comes from their income tax as well.  And, companies often split the cost of Blue Cross with their employees, but that's usually only companies big enough for that to be worthwhile, and it isn't mandatory.

Def

Interesting.  If you have socialized medicine, what do you need Blue Cross for?  Things that aren't covered by the government program like drugs, DME, etc?

- Tim

[Wetdog]

There are too many people (individuals and corporations) who will take advantage of any government run system at the expense of honest, hardworking taxpayers.  Despite what we are told, there is no accountability in our government. 

BTW I'm sitting about 1 mile away from the latest "town hall" (photo op) meeting.  Too bad I have to get back to work....

[ringzero]

I am going to watch this one very closely because of the political content, however I will also say that I feel that socialized medicine is a great thing.

If it's so great, then why do so many Canadians come to the U.S. for their medical care?

Not just for experimental cancer treatments, but for routine things like joint replacement, cardiology, MRI scans, and even to give birth!

There must be a reason, wonder what it could be...

.

Probably the same reason many US residents come up here and pretend to be Canadian in order to get free benefits.  No system is perfect, and people can find fault in anything. 

Def

Def, I'm glad for you that you've had good experiences with the Canadian medical system.

From talking to several exCanadians now living in the US,  my impression is that it works fairly well for routine sorts of medical problems.

However, for elderly Canadians it's a different story.

Elderly Canadians are routinely denied medical treatments that are quite common in the US.  Treatments that are expensive, but greatly improve the quality of the lives of older folks by improving mobility and vision.

I know an exCanadian doctor who now practices medicine in this area, and his opinion of the Canadian system is not good to put it mildly.

His elderly parents have had no recourse but to travel to the US for knee replacement surgery, opthalmic surgery, etc.  They consider themselves lucky to have the financial means to do so because many Candians can't afford it.

.
 

[Anthony]

I've also heard about elderly being denied service because it's not "worth it".  Same children and adults with severe mental problems or otherwise handicapped.

Another point that seperates America from Canada and the UK.  Millions of illegal aliens.  20 million I belive was an estimate, and growing.  They are already shutting down hospitals along the border...they get treated and dissapear.

And another point.  I see many (the majority?) of Americans who simply abuse their body.  Smoking, drinking to excess, eating to excess, STDs etc.  Taking money from my paycheck to pay for those people is as cliche as it sounds, un-American.  How about sex change operations?  I'm sure this administration woulden't deny anyone who feels they are a man trapped in a womans body or vice versa a very expensive operation and expensive medication.

Universal heathcare in America might be a worthwhile to explore if America was mature enough for it.  Same thing with legalizing marajuana...America isn't mature enough to handle it.  If we had a surplus every year, there wasn't an immigration problem, people were responsible for themselves and their family...there's a lot of things America would be able to sit down and discuss.

[ducktapehero]

I will possibly support universal healthcare when congress and the president agree to be covered by the same coverage and go to the same hospitals as we have to.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I will possibly support universal healthcare when congress and the president agree to be covered by the same coverage and go to the same hospitals as we have to.

That's a good, yet impossible point!

I think politicians should be paid a percentage based on their representative area's growth.  Recently the politicos in my area unanimously voted themselves a 22% raise, and they sure as heck didn't increase the standard of living in this province by 22% so I have no idea what they could use to justify that....

Def

[ufox9al]

The issue of nationalized/universal vs. private healthcare is not different than any other public vs. private issue. There are pros and cons on both sides. If this were not the case, every country would have already been on that plan. Here is my view on the pros and cons of each:

1) Public system.  Pros: Universal access to services, priority is based (at least in theory) on the medical necessity, accountability lies with the government, which in the end is accountable to taxpayers. Cons: Lack of competition could lead to lack of innovation, inefficiencies, waste; government frequently makes short-sighted popullist decisions; people with means cannot (at least in theory) pay extra to speed up the treatment or get treatment no considered "medically justified".

2) Private (for profit) system. Pros: Competition fosters innovation, efficiencies; consumers have (at least in theory) a choice of insurance provider and associated medical service providers. Cons: Both insurers and care providers are accountable to shareholders, "efficiencies" are often found in providing lower quality service and/or looking for more profitable clients to service, and having a client with "good" plan, running medically unjustified diagnostic tests are commonplace. Choice of care providers is limited to those who are associted with the insurer.

Every individual case is different, and people who were waiting months for MRI in Canada would disagree with me, but on average, I believe universal, publicly funded, health care system is better, and, if run properly, it costs taxpayers less. The last point is hotly disputed by the board members and CEOs of the insurance companies and hospitals, as well as many doctors for exactly that reason - in the public system they will make less money (your money!).

With respect to president and congress getting the same health care as everyone else, I hope your comment was tongue-in-cheeck, as this is not going to happen in any country, with any kind of system.

[ufox9al]

Just a quick P.S. In every society where "everyone is equal", some will always be "more equal than others". The question is, what percentage? I am willing to let politicians to get away with that, as it is a "necessary evil", but it's sad for a country like US to have tens of millions of people who are way less equal than others.

[Pacu]

I also think that corporations, especially evil ones like Wal Mart should stay the heck out of it.

Corporations aren't nearly as "evil" as governments.

The Umbrella Corporation could become a reality

Poor Alice!

[sappyg]

yes.... this is a good discussion!
i'm paraphrasing now: "when i get sick the gov't pays for it"..... that is not true.... seems to me that everyone pays for it. the gov't simply administers the accounting and funding. that is all.... they (gov't), aquire the funding from taxpayers. period... i seriously dought that the tax rate for the avarage Canadian or western European is 20%..... that is impossible. moreover, these recievables come from a monopolized economy sans any competition whatever. the consumer always pays for goods and services.... not the gov't.
ultimately we in the US have a lot of soul searching to do. i think part, but not all, of the question is: what is the business of gov't and what is the business of business?
to me, gov't provides for defense, roads, interstate and international commerse, fosters economy by promoting oportunity (good word that), and freedom to persue happiness. the question is not that gov't should fund something like stem cell research but that it should advance the persuite of free trade and investment by private interprise. trust me.... should there be profit in this the gov't will bennifit as well as it's citizens.
another paraphase: "sad that the US has millions of people that are less equal than others." again.... with respect, this is untrue. in fact, when i was a young man my academic transcripts had to be a minimum of +200 points higher (on a scale of 100 -1600),  than other "minorities" in order to gain acceptance into college. yes... this was a state supported univerisity. why was i held to a higher standard?... all things being "equal".
re: walmart..... not only is it disturbing that it has advertised it's positive position on national healthcare but i find it strangely curious that companies that stand to loose out in this deal are quiet. seriously, if i were a CEO of an insurance provider i would be screaming at the top of my lungs about this matter yet they are silent.... everyone would hear me... every day... all the time.... why are the so silent? this is a billion dallor industry and not a peep out of them.    

[Grant Lamontagne]

Want to see my pay stub?  My taxes are usually around 20%- they will be less this year as I just bought a house (income property) and have a buttload of write-offs...

Yes, you are right, everyone pays for it, but then isn't that how insurance works too?  Big business looks to make a bottom line, which means more income, less outgo.  A government wants you to stay healthy so you can pay taxes for years to come, so they have more of a vested interest than private business.

And, why are the insurance companies quiet?  Probably because a) they know they have little to worry about and b) they are busy writing kickback cheques and bathing with hookers in hot tubs filled with $100 bills...

Def

[ufox9al]

i find it strangely curious that companies that stand to loose out in this deal are quiet. seriously, if i were a CEO of an insurance provider i would be screaming at the top of my lungs about this matter yet they are silent.... everyone would hear me... every day... all the time.... why are the so silent? this is a billion dallor industry and not a peep out of them.    

We must be watching different television channels. On a number of my trips to US in the last 2 months I watched multiple ads helpfully advising people that government-run healthcare insurance will take away their choice by forcing private insurers out of business.

As for the positive action and "discrimination of white males", unfortunately, this is the only way that the government found to level the playing fileld. How long ago was the slavery abolished? How long ago blacks and women were not considered "persons" and not allowed to vote? How many people still believe that a victim of rape should not be allowed to have an abortion? Being "civilized" is not only a privilege, it comes with responsibilities too.

[ufox9al]

Want to see my pay stub?  My taxes are usually around 20%- they will be less this year as I just bought a house (income property) and have a buttload of write-offs...

The marginal tax rate in Onario, on every dollar above $120K is about 46%. This does not government pension contributions of 6% and unemployment insurancoe of 3%, but both of those are capped at about $2K. I make much more then Def , so my average tax rate is around 30%, which includes everything (income tax, pension plan, unemployment insurance). It is a common misconception among Americans that Canadians pay much more tax...

[Grant Lamontagne]

I'm thinking this thread may be about to get out of hand- let's stop and think about what we post before we get any drama.

It's easy for us ads Canadians to think our system is best, just as you guys think your system is best.  This works for us, and yours works for you and the bottom line is, neither of our countries can really afford to change over from one system to the next.  I'm sure we can all think of a million ways to better spend the money that would go into something that would affect the common man so little.

All in all, I think we should refrain from letting an interesting topic like this one degenerate into a he said she said kind of thing where people pick apart each other's posts.  

Meanwhile, I'll work towards making 46% taxes...

Def