Leatherman SURGE - bad quality!

[Vadim]

My Surge quality is top notch..besides the fact that when i carry it i sink half a foot into the concrete.   So far i have yet to get a bad Leatherman...

What was  the build dates on your defective Surges?  mine is 0908

mine is 09

[Benner]

Guys,just take a look at Swisstool and Leatherman and be honest,Swisstool has a way better quality.Leatherman is good and I like it but the quality is... ,not so good,I tell you it from my own experience.And like thebullfrog said I don't care what anyone says,I see what I see,Leatherman need a better quality control.Enough said. 

 
    

Don't be fooled into thinking that Vic have no problems.  My swisstool has play in every tool, and in the pliers and the file doesn't sit on the ledge that it should.  It rattles as well.  Does this mean Vic have bad QC?  Not at all, it just shows that every company will have the odd dodgy one slip through the net.

In fact you can find a fault ( although sometimes minor ) in nearly every Swisstool or Spirit . It may be a tiny bit of play in the pliers or a file that slips off its seating notch when the handles are open or too much play or too tight tools .
   One think I will say for Vic is I've never had one with a faulty lock up or one that doesn't function as it should .


Dunc

Yeah they are usually more "niggles" that faults.    Usually they never effect function (like mine for example).

[glorn]

Guys,just take a look at Swisstool and Leatherman and be honest,Swisstool has a way better quality.Leatherman is good and I like it but the quality is... ,not so good,I tell you it from my own experience.And like thebullfrog said I don't care what anyone says,I see what I see,Leatherman need a better quality control.Enough said. 

 
    

   Wow. That was a long trip just to arrive at "And that is why Victorinox is better than Leatherman."

Next time, just post that and save me the bother. I could have re-read War and Peace instead. 

[genevabuck]

Leatherman, the original and still the best. 

[Dunc]

Leatherman, the original and still the best. 

As your post count increases my friend so may your views on other manufacturers 

[DaveK]

Leatherman, the original and still the best. 

As your post count increases my friend so may your views on other manufacturers 

Errrr, ahem. He is of course correct

[Benner]

I'm going to put an end to this. 


Truth is they all suck and the only decent things out there are Chris Reeve knives. 

Here endeth the lesson. 

[Dunc]

A Chris Reeve multitool     


Dunc

[Benner]

A Chris Reeve multitool     


Dunc

It would surely cost about $1million though wouldn't it? 

[cadjak]

I have sent my brand new LM Surge back 3 times for repair. The first time one of the blades wasn't completely milled, so it wouldn't lock, the second time a riveted piece fell out of the handle, the  very first time used the knife. The third time the head of the pliers would jam between the awl and the screwdriver, keeping it from folding completely. Each time LM customer service was fast and efficient. Well,  efficient in that the turnaround time was lightning fast.  In a highly embarrassing finale, I was so sure that they would never get it right, that I confused the way the scissors opened on the Surge with the ones on my SwissTool and  almost sent it back a 4th time. My bad.

Everyone who had a solid, working Surge remarked about my run of bad luck. But, there seems to have been a lot of bad luck going around lately, with these tools. At the moment I am very happy with my Surge. I like it's heft and tool selection. The SwissTools that I bought to replace it are clearly more carefully machined and have a wonderful easy, smooth opening to the tools. They both have their relative strengths.

[DaveK]

Everyone who had a solid, working Surge remarked about my run of bad luck. But, there seems to have been a lot of bad luck going around lately, with these tools.

That's my point made for me really. I think that's two people out of how many sold?

[thebullfrog]

I never said that LM were bad quality. They aren't. But it just seems that the proportion of good to defective units is starting to skew a bit the wrong way. I'm sure by far the vast majority are flawless, or nearly so. But I also seem to be coming across a lot more defective ones than I used to. I know they make a gazillion of these things a day, but with demand being up so high, it seems like they are having a hard time keeping QC where it used to be. That's not to say that they're QC is "bad" per se, just that it doesn't seem to be as good as it was a couple years or so ago. A lot of the LM's I've handles recently seemed like they were rushed out the door to meet demand. It almost feels like LM is starting to reach their limits of their production capacity and are trying to push them out so fast that a lot more problem specimens are being missed. The fact that when I tried to order a new file/saw for the Surge last month and they said they couldn't fulfill any accessory orders till later in the month due to not being able to keep up with demand seems to back this up.

[jim guy]

I never said that LM were bad quality. They aren't. But it just seems that the proportion of good to defective units is starting to skew a bit the wrong way. I'm sure by far the vast majority are flawless, or nearly so. But I also seem to be coming across a lot more defective ones than I used to. I know they make a gazillion of these things a day, but with demand being up so high, it seems like they are having a hard time keeping QC where it used to be. That's not to say that they're QC is "bad" per se, just that it doesn't seem to be as good as it was a couple years or so ago. A lot of the LM's I've handles recently seemed like they were rushed out the door to meet demand. It almost feels like LM is starting to reach their limits of their production capacity and are trying to push them out so fast that a lot more problem specimens are being missed. The fact that when I tried to order a new file/saw for the Surge last month and they said they couldn't fulfill any accessory orders till later in the month due to not being able to keep up with demand seems to back this up.

seems to me the charges have alot of problems.

[thebullfrog]

Yeah, it's the Charge that seems to have the most problem's. I had an ALX with liner locks that, well didn't lock lol. I've handled a few other Charges that all seemed to have little problems here and there. Loose tools, play, etc. Not usually anything very significant, but still a lot more than what I see on things like the Wave, etc. Coupled with the probs people had with the Skeletool at launch, and some rumors of a lot of minor defects in the first ST300 batch, it all seems like LM having to rush units out to meet demand for their new products, and/or the more popular ones. It really just feels like they have a hard time keeping up with high demand items and QC starts to slip a lot. Either they need more QC people, or they need more production capacity so they can be "pickier" about what gets out the door.

[Mr. Whippy]

Well,

I'm going to have to say, that my user Leathermans have taken literally everything I could throw at them.  I use the points of the pliers on my LM Charge ALX to hammer out knockouts on junction boxes and wired appliances (pretty hard hammering sometimes).  Both my Charge and Surge pliers heads are used as pry tips and wedges on a regular basis.  And (sadly), I use the handles for extra torque to break free (or break off) stuck bolts and screws pretty regularly.

Both are still going strong. 

Does that mean LM isn't have QC problems?  Maybe not, but I'm not seeing it in my tools.

[jim guy]

I havent had any real problems with any except my charges, no biggie not enough to turn me away from leatherman thats for sure.

[thebullfrog]

Exactly. Like I said I'm sure the vast majority are just as great as ever. But the increase in issues lately has me worried about LM's ability to keep up their quality going forward. If they are reaching their current limits in regards to production vs quality, and demand keeps going up, then what seems to be a slight trend now, may wind up being a real problem. I'd have no reservations about picking up a new LM now, but if things keep heading the way it starting to look like from my recent experiences, then in 2 years I may not be so willing to buy the Charge ALTTIX.

[DaveK]

But the increase in issues lately has me worried about LM's ability to keep up their quality going forward.

This increase in issues you refer to is based on what?

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but what percentage of the total Leatherman Charges sold do you believe have issues? The reality is that none of us know, but I personally believe that if it were significant problem, somebody would have dealt with it as perceived quality is so important to Leatherman's business image.

I also believe that stories of problems are far more likely to make it onto the internet than boring, conformist "my Leatherman Charge was exactly what I expected" stories, so drawing conclusions from such unreliable data isn't really going to prove anything.

I can understand that if an individual has repeated problems with any brand - they may not feel like using them again, that sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't really think we need to be worried for Leatherman Tool Group. They are the industry giant for good reasons (and price isn't one of them)!

[jim guy]

I love my LMs, much more than gerbers and sogs that I own. I have had some issues with my charges that were easy fixes. As far as qc goes I dont think its any worse than it ever was, people are always gonna complain more than praise.

[thebullfrog]

I don't know. And as I already said, I agree that the number is assuredly really low. Low enough to not be a major concern right now. But in my experience the number is going up. It may only be like 5%, but not long ago was only about 3% (for sake of arguement). The number is low enough to not be much of an issue now, but if the trend keeps up of the number getting larger, then there will be a problem. Like I said in my last post.

And no, I have no "professional or official" data. What I do have is my impression as a customer. My impression as a customer is of a company that is beginning to slip a bit. It's clear from posts here that I am not the only customer who has this impression. Now as a customer if I see a trend like this, it makes me more wary of the product. A company's survival is very dependent of the way their customers perceive their product. From a numbers standpoint, the defective rate is almost definitely very low. However the more people begin to perceive there to be a worsening problem, the less confident they are to buy it. This WILL hurt LM in the long run. As a consumer, I have no idea what the defective rate on LM's products really are, but if I keep seeing problems all the time, and the trend keeps getting worse, then I as a consumer may not be so willing to hand LM my money.

Do I know chances are the next LM I buy will be perfectly fine? Yes. Do I know that if there is an issue LM will take care of it? Yes. Do I want to have to deal with the hassle of having them take care of it? No. If of the last, say 10 LM's I handles, 4 of them had flaws I would not be satisfied with owning, then from my perspective it APPEARS as if I have almost a 50% chance of getting a bad one. Yes, this is merely an opinion based on a small sample group, but this is my perception based on recent experience. This thread and others like it shows I'm not alone in this recent experience. This is something that LM needs to find a way to take care of before a perceived problem becomes a real one. A couple years ago, every LM I laid eyes on was nearly perfect, now (especially with their more popular models) I can find examples with serious faults in every store I go to. Proportionally, yes it's a small number and by in large LM quality is still fantastic. But perceptionally, they are starting to "look" bad, despite not actually "being" bad. It's more down the road that I'm worried about, if the trend continues.

[jim guy]

Does it seem strange that Lms cheap line, blast, fuse, kick, core seem to have the least amount of problems?

[DaveK]

I'm having a real problem understanding how you think the trend is going up - given that you acknowledge my other points  

If we stick with your 3% guestimated figure of issues (in truth I doubt it's that high, but simply don't know) with increasing sales you would see more issues even if that 3% stayed the same - no? Last I heard Leatherman were still growing, which suggests increased sales.

I just really think that there isn't enough information in the public domain to draw any meaningful conclusions at all, so I don't try to personally. I have something over 150 Leatherman tools (not all bought new admittedly, but many were), with no quality issues at all, not even the 4 or 5 tools that 3% would suggest should be faulty in some way

Does the experience of my 150 good tools affect your 50% probability of getting a duff one in any way? If your "perspective" is based on internet forums, then we just need to get Joe and Bob to dish up some numbers and you'll be down to fractions of a percentage in no time

Does it seem strange that Lms cheap line, blast, fuse, kick, core seem to have the least amount of problems?

Do they? How do you know?

[jim guy]

I'm having a real problem understanding how you think the trend is going up - given that you acknowledge my other points  

If we stick with your 3% guestimated figure of issues (in truth I doubt it's that high, but simply don't know) with increasing sales you would see more issues even if that 3% stayed the same - no? Last I heard Leatherman were still growing, which suggests increased sales.

I just really think that there isn't enough information in the public domain to draw any meaningful conclusions at all, so I don't try to personally. I have something over 150 Leatherman tools (not all bought new admittedly, but many were), with no quality issues at all, not even the 4 or 5 tools that 3% would suggest should be faulty in some way

Does the experience of my 150 good tools affect your 50% probability of getting a duff one in any way? If your "perspective" is based on internet forums, then we just need to get Joe and Bob to dish up some numbers and you'll be down to fractions of a percentage in no time

Does it seem strange that Lms cheap line, blast, fuse, kick, core seem to have the least amount of problems?

Do they? How do you know?

well I dont know, seems like the only thing you hear people complain about on that line is the plastic. Any complaints about tools not locking? or files scraping handles? Or parts falling out of the tool like surges and waves?

[thebullfrog]

My perspective is based on the tools I have handled in person as of late. Almost half of the tools I have handled in stores or friend's tools have had serious faults as of late, Internet has nothing to do with it.

[cadjak]

Bottom line for me is, I don't have a reliable way of making a generalized statement about LM quality. I know that there have been problems with some pieces, but I can't tell if those are flukes, or indicators of more wide spread issues with Leatherman quality.  It is only relevant to me, as far as what tools I will buy and use. I know that I had repeated issues with ONE Surge. I am still willing to give LM the benefit of the doubt and would still buy one if it filled a need that I had. But I can see how it would be a tough call for individuals here who get to read all the reports of these failures on individual tools. We each will have to come to whatever conclusion we can, based on incomplete data.

[thebullfrog]

Oh don't get me wrong, I would still buy a new LM no problem. I (like everyone else) find the ST 300 oh so very tempting. My little brother just bought a Crater knife that for the money is actually a really well made tool, and if a SURGE appears with the ST 300 pliers..omg must have. I'm just getting tired of running into so many bad/flawed/or flat out defective examples. This is personal experience, not reading on the internet. We all know that the internet is a place to complain loudly, not share how wonderful a product is. In my real-world experience I just keep encountering far too many LM's with problems as of late. Some of which have been seriously dangerous (such as blade locks not working). My younger brother had a Charge collapse onto his hand not long ago. I also had a Charge a while back with faulty locks. I would still buy an LM, but I'm getting very wary and will no longer order them online. With all the recent experiences I've had with LM of late, I no longer feel comfortable buying one without being able to handle and CAREFULLY inspect the tool first. If I start encountering fewer issues, then my full confidence will return. If the trend keeps up, then my confidence will continue to erode away. I don't want that. I love Leatherman.

[joebw]

It seems to me that "problem quantities" of 3% or 5% are not even guesstimates.  They are simple guesses which appear to be unfounded.

Like Dave, I've got quite a few Leatherman tools, a bunch of Leatherman knives, good quanities of Leatherman lights and Leatherman pruners redux.Had a problem with the first Charge that I bought (it was assembled with some duplicate tools - probably one of the first production pieces) and had trouble with the loctited screw on my first Vista binding the pruner up due to failure of the loctite (Leatherman quickly went from the loctited screw/pinion design to a mechanically locking nut and bolt - no more problems).

Bottom line is that I believe this thread is totally unfounded and we probably should not put guesses out there as you will have some folks believing that these numbers are real.  That wouldn't be good.

Cheers - Joe

[cadjak]

What I was trying to say earlier in this thread, none of us have any more than our own personal experience with these tools.  It is too easy for me to believe that my experience somehow represents an entire trend. If that were true, then Leatherman would have serious problems. Similarly, if I had owned numerous Leatherman products and never had a serious issue, I'd think that those who were posting their problems online, only represent some small minority. This thread is about the questions that some of us had after a run of defective tools.  I really don't know how we can decide what the "truth" of the matter is, unless we owned 50,000 LM tools and found problems with about half of them.

[thebullfrog]

The 3% and 5% were completely made up off the top of my head for arguement's sake. Something I clearly stated in that post. I used those numbers as an example to show I have personally seen an increase in problems of late. The numbers could have been .03% and .05%. The point remains the same. Read more carefully next time.

[ryan1835]

But the increase in issues lately has me worried about LM's ability to keep up their quality going forward.

This increase in issues you refer to is based on what?

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but what percentage of the total Leatherman Charges sold do you believe have issues? The reality is that none of us know, but I personally believe that if it were significant problem, somebody would have dealt with it as perceived quality is so important to Leatherman's business image.

I also believe that stories of problems are far more likely to make it onto the internet than boring, conformist "my Leatherman Charge was exactly what I expected" stories, so drawing conclusions from such unreliable data isn't really going to prove anything.

I can understand that if an individual has repeated problems with any brand - they may not feel like using them again, that sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't really think we need to be worried for Leatherman Tool Group. They are the industry giant for good reasons (and price isn't one of them)!

i think part of this is people being nityy picky ( yes i am one to talk lol)

when i first got mine i was looking over it and was expecting it to be perfect fit but at the end of the day you need to remember its a TOOL not a piece of jewelry (excluding the gold plated pst =D ) which i have now realized so i wasn't too bothered when i dropped my charge and made a nice dent in the scales

just my two cents