What is so special about Surefire?

[Woz]

I visited IWA this weekend, and just had to visit the Surefire booth. As every year I really LOVED the Surefire products, specially the E1B and E2D. As always I would have bought one right away if selling was not prohibited on IWA. But, the next day when I was looking for the lights on dealer sites, I was thinking: Why getting a Surefire if Fenix, 4sevens or Nitecore just to name some of them make pretty good lights for one third of the money?

I know that the look and feel of Surefire brand lights are great. But a Nitecore Defender is far from being an ugly light and way cheaper than a Backup. They are about the same size, brightness and both lights seem to be equally well built. Same for the E2D, great light, but a PD 30 is very close.
I know Surefire is made in the USA, but being European I do not really care for US made or not. And, to be honest, I think they are still overprized. But so are Fenix and other Chinese brands, I can get a pretty good Romisen or Tank brand light from China for 20 bucks, or pay 60 to get a Fenix. Or 150 to get a Surefire. It seems there are very, very cheap crap lights, decent quality lights for low cost (Romisen, Tank, others), decent quality lights for high cost (LedLenser, Maglite (they just are not up to date) and others), good to very good quality lights for medium cost (Fenix, Nitecore, 4sevens, Olight, others) and Surefire for high cost. And customs, but I don´t think of them being lights, more being arts like nice handmade knives.

So, my question is: Is it just the brand name, or is there any good reason why I, being a normal civilian EDC user, should go for a Surefire and not for a 4sevens or Fenix?

[Styerman]

In a word ruggedness , and build quality . I just don't trust the Chinese lites . For me , lights aren't a hobby , when I'm working they are core tools and have to work .

People have short memories , Surefire invented a whole Genere of lights , they may not go with the emmiter de jour , but their stuff is solid . I trust it , ergo ; thats where my money goes .

Would you rather have a Glock , or a less expensive Chinese clone , when the chips go down , I'll stick with the genuine article .

Chris

[space cowboy]

Even though I don't own a Surefire I have read they are reliable & rugged. The company provides great service if anything should go wrong. Their quality control is very good also I have heard. Basically this is why they can get a premium price on their product.

[Benner]

I started with Fenix lights and TBH could not really see the point in forking out for a Surefire when the quality of those were so good.  I was wrong.  Surefire's are in a league of their own with regards to quality and it's only something you appreciate when you own it and use it each day.  Every part on my A2 is perfect and the light feels incredibly robust and rugged.  IMO, if you want a decent light and can go the extra and get a Surefire, do it, you certainly won't regret it and with the great warranty they offer, you'll have a light for life.

[2xTap]

I own several Surefire lights and while I find them of quality construction (although some of their clickies leave alot to be desired) they are usually WAY over priced for what you get. Owning many different import lines of flashlights I have found very little difference in quality between some of them and many of the Surefires I own.....and many of these have better designs, with better emitters, and much better clickies had at much lower prices than equivalent SF's.

I haven't bought a new SF in a long while.....and anymore I'll take a Eagletac, Olight, Fenix, JetBeam, Nitecore, 4Sevens, DereeLight, Wolf-Eyes, iTP, or Lumapower over any of the new Surefires.

2xTap

[Styerman]

I agree with you on the Clickies , same can be said for most other prodo clickies (Old Skool HDS , Novatac etc ). That said , I have owned several platoons of Surefires and nary a hitch . Fenix clickies are far less reliable . I have a number of pi$$ed off friends who would testify .

About the only clickie I would trust 100% ATM is the Ra . The aftermarket e series compatible is dominated by the McGizmo McClickie .

The quality of machining ( quite important as function is thread dependent ) , and anodixing is much superior .

I like their KISS interfaces , especially for use under stress . About the only cheapie offshore lites I have any faith in are the Streamlights , they take quite a beating . I only use them in a very limited role , so will gladly treat them as biodegradeable when/if they fail

Chris

[Zack]

I've owned my share of surefires, but I still prefer my Fenix lights or my Ra.  If Surefire would get away from the CR123 battery I would like it even more.  But even their 1CR123 lights I find hard to pocket.  My favorite light is still the Fenix P2D.  Great brightness, throw, and fits in the pocket very easily.

[NutSAK]

Sorry for the off-topic, but what type of clicky does the Ra use?  I assumed it was the same type as HDS/Novatac.

[2xTap]

Styerman,

In my experience not really. Of the 60 plus lights I own a majority of them use some form of Clickie tailcap......so far the only ones that have given me any problems have been Surefire. Particularly that which came with my 6P Defender. Ther original Z59 that came on my 6PD failed in the first week or so of owning it. A replacement Z59 didn't last much longer before it started giving me some problems, although this one I managed to fix myself......but after that I didn't trust them. My 6PD then got a Leaf/McClickie combo that has been going strong since.

I have no other lights with Clickies that have failed on me and I have quite a few with alot more miles on them than any of my SF's.

As to their anodizing, it is good. But I have other lights with Type III that are just as good.....one inparticular that has seen plenty of daily use and abuse as my duty light that still to this day does not show a single mark or chip.......and on a light made entirely of aluminum with a superior LED, superior clickie, a variable UI, and at a price point equal to a SF Incan G2.

As nice as they are a good majority of my SF's are the only lights I own that required modification to be useful to me. Be it swapping out of clickies to upgrading lamps and emitters......considering their cost this shouldn't be. Although I have never paid full SF price for any of their lights so for me it isn't as big a deal.

2xTap

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

So who in you opinion do make the best light's then mate

[Styerman]

Mine have treated me well , they are about the best readily available , over the counter lites in my hood . For single cell EDC lites i'm giving serious thought to Ra clickies , allthought the are in more limited production and are less available . As /when my Sufefire clickies fail ( I have yet to have it happen ) , I will simply score some e series compatible McClicky guts and refurb.  the offending unit . I will then stash the new switch Surefires warranty department will send me .

If cost were to be damned , I'd just buy two McGizmo Haiku's , Sundrops or Lunasols , and forget production lites altogether . At two times about $600.00 per copy , this isn't gonna happen anytime soon .

Chris

[Styerman]

Mike , if you are talking production , ATM , I would say Ra . If you are talking very limited production , I would say McGizmo , the Ti PD's , Sundrops , Haiku's and friends . These are equivalent to say , a hinderer XM18 , while a Ra would be equvalent to a Sebbie . For this analogy , Surefire would be equivalent to Benchmade  .

Chris

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Thanks for putting it into context for me mate

I'm still a bit of a newb where flashlites are concerned

[Freudian Frog]

Sorry but... what's wrong with Maglites?

[jzmtl]

Sorry but... what's wrong with Maglites?

Nothing, my around house lights are an AA minimag and a 3D mag. 

[jim guy]

uh, they work and last forever

[Styerman]

The Minimag AA LED lights are OK , had they been around pack in the day , I would still be using them . The Incan Minimags were nicely made , but had poor , yellowed out beams , and blew bulbs at the drop of a hat . C and D mags were fine clubs , but a PITA for work use . The AAA Mini and Solitare should probably have been LED from the get go . 5mm Nichas with a good reflector would have been a huge step up .

I was blown away by my first 6P , a thing smaller than a Mini blew the doors of a 5D with fresh cells . After that I was screwed .

Chris

[Styerman]

I must confess a certain prejudice founded on experience , I have just seen so many utter garbage PRC clones of otherwise good products , that it has made me pretty crusty on the subject . Inferior lookalikes for Ridgid pipe wrenches , ViceGrips etc . The copies of power tools being no better . I have more than once used my Klines to break the jaws off PRC and Tiwanese pseudo pliers that some moron has had the temerity to tell me are equal to my Snap On or Kline stuff .

How many guys have proudly shown you their Wave , Emerson , Victorinox , or Spyderco clones ?

Frankly until some PRC practices ( for example:blatant theft of intellectual property ) change , I want nothing to do with their products .

I realize that in recent times their quality has started to get beyond the barfbag stage and is steadily climbing , their ethics have not .

Chris

[NutSAK]

Styerman, what flashlights do you consider Surefire "clones"?  I see enough ingenuity in most other light manufacturers to not be considered clones of Surefire--at least not to the extent of the cloning you refer to in knives and other tools.

[Blackbeard]

uh, they work and last forever

I've had too many broken maglites over the years to agree with this statemant.

[Woz]

Maglite is just not up to date. Their lineup is old fashioned, the new light is way too fancy - they just don´t get how to make a modern EDC light. I LOVED my 3D Mag as well as my Solitaire for years, but I won´t get a new light that is years behind other manufacturers.

[Styerman]

Styerman, what flashlights do you consider Surefire "clones"?  I see enough ingenuity in most other light manufacturers to not be considered clones of Surefire--at least not to the extent of the cloning you refer to in knives and other tools.

I don't know about what abounds in your hood , but I have seen numerous 6P clones with half a dozen half dead leds in their heads . Just about every "Tactical " has borrowed it's styling from Surefire . Multiple levels and not very well thought functions were lifted wholesale from lights like the Gladius . Many Chinese "Tacticals " are Gladius knockoffs , many of decidedly inferior quality . Many of the sophisticated features found in cutting edge EDC lites of the 2003-04 era have been slavishly and poorly copied .

Most of us wouldn't be caught dead with a knock off Leatherman or SAK , and yet we buy these abominations in droves . Nightcore , at least had the decency to liscence the PD from Don ( more commonly known as McGizmo ) .

Why do R&D when you can more profitably rip off a small manufacturer .

Chris

[NutSAK]

Is the cloning you refer to that common?  I've never owned a light that I consider a direct clone or "rip-off" of Surefire, but I own very few tactical-style lights.  Most of the lights I own are AA, C, D or 18650 lights that have nothing more in common with Surefire than Surefire has in common with Maglite.  Some of these are US designs, some are from overseas.  I've also never seen nor handled a 6P clone in person, but I do know they exist.

I have seen MANY direct rip-offs of mutitools, knives and handguns however.  Well-regarded US gun manufacturers (S&W, Springfield to name a couple) and car manufacturers rip off other designs all the time and I rarely hear anyone call it an abomination.

[jock1]

I don't know that much about flashlights but I have had a Fenix tk11 and a SF 6p sold the Fenix and kept the SF .My edc is also an SF G2 incan I can't see past the build qualiy they just feel right in the hand 

[Styerman]

Crude Surefire rip offs are widely known as clone fires . Pentagon lites being a prime example , they blundered by saying they were US made , when in fact they were just US assembled , as they were located in the CONUS , Surefire was able to hang them out to dry in the courts . The Chinese lights are seldom a new paragraph , just a run on line made of features stolen from whoever . Patents and trademaks appear to be toilet paper in the PRC . A lot of the features you are seeing on todays EDC lites go back to early ARC's Lion Cubs , HDS etc . Some of the aforementioned going back many years .

The PRC is a pragmatic place , why do costly R&D , when you can merely steal everything in site ? Think of how many man years of research and development that saves .

Chris

[jim guy]

i was talking about surefires lasting not maglites. I havent broke a surefire yet. Had two maglites break, both times switches went out.

[Styerman]

Ditto here , at one time or another I have owned most all the incans , several rechargables , and most of the LED's . The only breakage was a U2 that took a dive of 24 ' onto a Terrazo floor ( replaced on warranty -no fuss ) . I would not call that normal wear and tear - the bezel was so dented , it could not be unscrewed in order to replace the broken lens . The only failure I know of personally , was an A2 I gave as a gift to my apprentice . Stories of clicky failure are reported , some by credible users , I have yet to experience any .

I have rocked a Surefire since the lateish 90's .

Today there is some very nice nice stuff out there , especially in the way of EDC lites . Surefire is a bit behind the curve on EDC lites , but then again that is not their market niche .

Basically , they do what I want , and do it well . I'm quite happy with my E1B as a Work/EDC/Tactical . Another attrction it holds is that there are three dealers within 100 Km. of my hood who can hand me an over the counter replacement ( in either plain HAIII or silver yet ) .

Chris

[2xTap]

Styerman,

In no way is any PentagonLight a Surefire clone. Their designs are quite disimilar......and while one can say that the lock-out they used was or wasn't identical to SF's. So are many others and yet SF hasn't sued any of them. Interesting to note, of what I could find at the time PentagonLight was Surefire's weakest competition for Government Contracts pertaining to lights. Many light manufacturers use a form of Lock-Out tailcap.....Pelican comes to mind.....and yet they weren't sued.

Funny though as the one PentagonLight I have is a Incan eX2 and it's a superior product to any of my SF incans........a smoother more positive Forward Clickie that is virtually silent and a far superior lamp assembly with a cleaner beam and evenly diffused hotspot with more spill as opposed to the weak P60 assembly.

As to the made in the USA issue.....while legally there has to be a certain percentage of parts actually made Stateside to qualify under law to actually be "Made in the USA"......it's not like SF is 100% Made in the USA either. In my view SF, after their patent reissue, went on a headhunt to eliminate competition they new they could financially afford to fight in court.....if it came to it. Because they didn't take on the other big boys in the market.

2xTap

[Styerman]

One theory I have heard , was that Pentagon light was in a position to hurt them in re: weapons lights ; with Iraq and the Afgan Fiasco still in swing - might add up quite a bit of scratch . The examples of Pentagon's weaponlights I saw did not seem in any way preferable to my Scout light .  We had a dealer in town , some of the stuff was interesting . Never checked out their incans , since I got into LED's , just don't find any application for them , nice not to have to carry spare bulbs .

Your point about Pelican is well taken , would have been  a tuffer nut to crack .

Chris

[prime77]

While I am a self proclaimed SF fanboy and love their lights and gear.  I have to say they are a little over priced. Also as a follower of their company some of their business practices don't seem aimed at keeping their customers very happy. Just look at their last three catalogs and all the lights they never delivered on, mainly the much hyped Optimus.

As for the durability of their lights I think they are very robust and well made lights. Compairing them to my Fenix, Nitecore, and Novatac lights SF makes their lights with thicker walls, much better knurling and the best annodizing around even it doesn't always match exactly. I have heard allot of talk of RA lights in this thread I wouldn't put them in the same leauge as SF at all. While I love both my RA clickies the problems I have had with them and RAs customer service is nothing compaired to SFs. Surefires do break. Of the 17 that I have I have used their customer service twice with amazing results. I had two e-series tailcaps break and all I did was call them and they sent me a replacement right away. You don't even have to send in the broken part. It should be noted that they recently redesigned their e-series tailcaps that gave slot of us users problems. The new ones are much better IMO. They have the best warranty in the buissness. It should be noted that I think their lifetime warranty is only available in the US.

As for the whole Pentagon light matter I have to agree with you guys that SF saw Pentagon lights taking some of their military business away and used their litigation muscle to but them away. A shame really. Of the Pentagon lights I have handled they were really nice.