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Identifying Japanese-made PSTs

gregozedobe · 29 · 3064
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
on: January 06, 2017, 08:18:09 AM
For a while now I have been thinking about updating parts of the venerable Leatherman PST Chronology Project (LMPSTCP) thread to reflect what we currently know about the different versions of the made-in-Japan PSTs (JPSTs).  It is several years now since this section was significantly changed, and I believe that as more (and different) JPSTs have been found and studied we now have more (and more accurate) information about these MTs.

I propose to raise some questions and share what I know based on my examples, and hopefully after some discussion we can get a reasonable agreement on updating the JPST section of the LMPSTCP thread.

I strongly suggest we stay with the existing 3 main versions classification of JPSTs ie versions 3], 4] & 5] as these have been mentioned in many other places (and not just in this forum), so it would be confusing to suddenly change that now.  Iif you are not that familiar with the the JPST section of the LMPSTCP thread then it would be a good idea to re-read it before continuing on.
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,5877.msg103122.html#msg103122

I don't want things to get bogged down with lengthy discussions about some of the very rare sub-variants that are different to the regular versions, perhaps we can just mention them in passing when discussing the characteristics of particular components, and focus most of our attention on the more common versions and variants.


So, where to start ?

I'll kick things off with a discussion about a distinguishing feature of JPSTs - the rivets that hold everything together (US-made PSTs used knurled screws).

Q1  Has anyone ever seen a JPST with knurled screws that they believe was made in the Japanese LM factory ? 
I haven't, but had an idea that some US/Japanese hybrids may have been sighted, and there was speculation these were assembled in the US using left-over Japanese parts.

Q2  Has anyone ever seen a JPST (any version) with front-side rivets that are "hollow" (staked) (ie not solid) ?
I haven't, all the ones I've ever seen (and that's quite a few by now) were all simple solid rivets on the front side handles.

Q3  Has anyone ever seen a version 3] JPST with back-side rivets that are solid ?  ie not "hollow" (staked)
I haven't, all the ones I've seen had "hollow" (staked) back-side rivets.

Q4 Has anyone ever seen a version 4] JPST with back-side rivets that are solid ?  ie not "hollow" (staked)
I haven't, all the ones I've seen had "hollow" (staked) back-side rivets.

I have noticed that while most version 5] JPSTs had solid back-side rivets, a small percentage had "hollow" (staked) back-side rivets.
Q5  Approximately what percentage of version 5] JPSTs have "hollow" (staked) back-side rivets ?
My guesstimate would be around 10%.


That is probably be enough to get the discussion started, so everyone, what are your thoughts/opinions ?
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us Offline SteveC

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #1 on: January 06, 2017, 02:36:40 PM
 :like:  :popcorn:
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #2 on: January 06, 2017, 03:27:48 PM
I only have a couple of the Japanese version ones.and will have to take a look to see if there are any differences but I am sure they are probably in with some of the main variations :salute:

Good thread Greg :like: :like:
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ru Offline wowaboro

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #3 on: January 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 08:18:09 AM
I strongly suggest we stay with the existing 3 main versions classification of JPSTs ie versions 3], 4] & 5] as these have been mentioned in many other places (and not just in this forum), so it would be confusing to suddenly change that now.  Iif you are not that familiar with the the JPST section of the LMPSTCP thread then it would be a good idea to re-read it before continuing on.
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,5877.msg103122.html#msg103122

I don't want things to get bogged down with lengthy discussions about some of the very rare sub-variants that are different to the regular versions, perhaps we can just mention them in passing when discussing the characteristics of particular components, and focus most of our attention on the more common versions and variants.

Greg, with this I disagree, if we do anything, we must do it well or not do it :pok:
With all due respect, this classification is very superficial and not suitable for serious research :D
Just for sample: where in LMPSTCP classification versions of JPST with "LEATHERMAN USA" on pliers or with "US REG’D TM 1325473" on handle etc?
Why the need for these only 14 versions, if the PST's modifications (based on 22 parameters, see table) has known much more quantity and each modification has its own unique number.

JPSTs, by my counts, has 19 modifications (USA made PSTs - 134, but the speech now not about them).
It's my working JPST excel table (clickable):


Green fields - JPSTs that I have.

 
And about your questions:
Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 - answer "I'm not ever seen, these PST's modifications not exist". I'm not sure 100%, but 99% definitely  :)
Q5 - I agree with you - 10-15%

So, it's my thoughts/opinions  :cheers:
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 04:36:49 PM by wowaboro »
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 03:44:38 PM
Of the JPSTs I have all are solid rivets.  I've yet to get a hollow rivet of any variation. 
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 04:33:31 PM
Quote from: wowaboro on January 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM

Greg, with this I disagree, if we do anything, we must do it well or not do it :pok:
With all due respect, this classification is very superficial and not suitable for serious research :D
Just for sample: where in LMPSTCP classification versions of JPST with "LEATHERMAN USA" on pliers, "US REG’D TM 1325473" on handle etc?

So, it's my thoughts/opinions  :cheers:

Vladimir,

Thank you for that useful and informative data and your thoughts/opinions - just what I was hoping for in starting this thread.   :tu:

I think we may have to agree to disagree on the need for a very fine split of versions for every possible variation.  In meta-classification terms, I would be labelled as a "lumper", while you would most definitely qualify as a "splitter".   ;)   :pok:

The design and emphasis of a particular classification system  depends on what purpose you wish to use it for.  I was aiming for something that would be helpful to interested novices to take a reasonably quick look at a particular JPST and be able to tell which version it is without having to know too much of the intricate detail of subtle variations. As I said, I am happy to add some short notes to cover the very rare variants such as JPSTs with USA on the pliers, or  Files with tang marks of "Made In Japan".   As far as Handles with "US REG’D TM 1325473" on them, I would classify them as version 5], along with those stamped "REG’D TM 1325473"; applying the same principle as some version 5] JPSTS have hollow rivets and some have solid rivets.

I have stated my position and my reasons, but am happy to defer to the MTo group preference on this issue.  Maybe someone should start a poll ?  :pok:

Please keep those thoughts/opinions and info flowing  :D
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 04:38:21 PM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 06, 2017, 03:44:38 PM
Of the JPSTs I have all are solid rivets.  I've yet to get a hollow rivet of any variation.

I'm guessing they all have "REG’D TM 1325473" (with or without the prefix "US") stamped on the handle.
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 06:24:44 PM
It's great to have a list with all the variations for people who have been at collecting PSTs for a while :cheers: but as Greg said we need to keep the info to a point where it is useful to a more broad audience :tu: Someone just starting to collect PSTs or just looking for info on them might find it a bit overwhelming and just give up entirely if the info is to confusing :think: :D

It might even be worthwhile to start a PSTs for experts thread separately and put all the info you have compiled in it wowaboro :tu: Pics and all would be very nice as well :dd: :like:
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #8 on: January 06, 2017, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 04:38:21 PM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 06, 2017, 03:44:38 PM
Of the JPSTs I have all are solid rivets.  I've yet to get a hollow rivet of any variation.

I'm guessing they all have "REG’D TM 1325473" (with or without the prefix "US") stamped on the handle.

You are indeed correct.  The knife tang stamp is different across the models I do have.
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #9 on: January 06, 2017, 10:18:25 PM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 06, 2017, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 04:38:21 PM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 06, 2017, 03:44:38 PM
Of the JPSTs I have all are solid rivets.  I've yet to get a hollow rivet of any variation.

I'm guessing they all have "REG’D TM 1325473" (with or without the prefix "US") stamped on the handle.

You are indeed correct.  The knife tang stamp is different across the models I do have.

This is starting to be like the MTo trivia questions thread  ;)   :pok:

I'm going to guess (again) that most have "Leatherman, Japan", with perhaps a smaller number with "Leatherman" only (no "Japan")   And zero with "Japan, Leatherman"   :think:
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 10:23:26 PM by gregozedobe »
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #10 on: January 06, 2017, 10:22:30 PM
Quote from: Poncho65 on January 06, 2017, 06:24:44 PM
It's great to have a list with all the variations for people who have been at collecting PSTs for a while :cheers: but as Greg said we need to keep the info to a point where it is useful to a more broad audience :tu: Someone just starting to collect PSTs or just looking for info on them might find it a bit overwhelming and just give up entirely if the info is to confusing :think: :D

It might even be worthwhile to start a PSTs for experts thread separately and put all the info you have compiled in it wowaboro :tu: Pics and all would be very nice as well :dd: :like:

I think a separate thread with a very detailed description of the minute variations is an excellent idea - that way ALL the information is in one spot for the JPST experts, but the summary form is still accessible for the non-experts.
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #11 on: January 07, 2017, 12:17:18 AM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 10:18:25 PM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 06, 2017, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 04:38:21 PM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 06, 2017, 03:44:38 PM
Of the JPSTs I have all are solid rivets.  I've yet to get a hollow rivet of any variation.

I'm guessing they all have "REG’D TM 1325473" (with or without the prefix "US") stamped on the handle.

You are indeed correct.  The knife tang stamp is different across the models I do have.

This is starting to be like the MTo trivia questions thread  ;)   :pok:

I'm going to guess (again) that most have "Leatherman, Japan", with perhaps a smaller number with "Leatherman" only (no "Japan")   And zero with "Japan, Leatherman"   :think:

I have

Leatherman Japan.  I think 8 tools. 
Leatherman only.  1 tool.

ZERO Japan Leatherman.

Zero Hollow rivets of any kind.

I am recalling from memory as I haven't look at them in a long time. 

 

 

 
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #12 on: January 07, 2017, 12:20:01 AM
Quote from: wowaboro on January 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 08:18:09 AM
I strongly suggest we stay with the existing 3 main versions classification of JPSTs ie versions 3], 4] & 5] as these have been mentioned in many other places (and not just in this forum), so it would be confusing to suddenly change that now.  Iif you are not that familiar with the the JPST section of the LMPSTCP thread then it would be a good idea to re-read it before continuing on.
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,5877.msg103122.html#msg103122

I don't want things to get bogged down with lengthy discussions about some of the very rare sub-variants that are different to the regular versions, perhaps we can just mention them in passing when discussing the characteristics of particular components, and focus most of our attention on the more common versions and variants.

Greg, with this I disagree, if we do anything, we must do it well or not do it :pok:
With all due respect, this classification is very superficial and not suitable for serious research :D
Just for sample: where in LMPSTCP classification versions of JPST with "LEATHERMAN USA" on pliers or with "US REG’D TM 1325473" on handle etc?
Why the need for these only 14 versions, if the PST's modifications (based on 22 parameters, see table) has known much more quantity and each modification has its own unique number.

JPSTs, by my counts, has 19 modifications (USA made PSTs - 134, but the speech now not about them).
It's my working JPST excel table (clickable):


Green fields - JPSTs that I have.

 
And about your questions:
Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 - answer "I'm not ever seen, these PST's modifications not exist". I'm not sure 100%, but 99% definitely  :)
Q5 - I agree with you - 10-15%

So, it's my thoughts/opinions  :cheers:

Outstanding work.  Thank you for your generosity in providing this table.   :salute:

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us Offline Yadda

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #13 on: January 07, 2017, 02:21:27 AM
Quote from: Aloha007 on January 07, 2017, 12:20:01 AM
Quote from: wowaboro on January 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 08:18:09 AM
I strongly suggest we stay with the existing 3 main versions classification of JPSTs ie versions 3], 4] & 5] as these have been mentioned in many other places (and not just in this forum), so it would be confusing to suddenly change that now.  Iif you are not that familiar with the the JPST section of the LMPSTCP thread then it would be a good idea to re-read it before continuing on.
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,5877.msg103122.html#msg103122

I don't want things to get bogged down with lengthy discussions about some of the very rare sub-variants that are different to the regular versions, perhaps we can just mention them in passing when discussing the characteristics of particular components, and focus most of our attention on the more common versions and variants.

Greg, with this I disagree, if we do anything, we must do it well or not do it :pok:
With all due respect, this classification is very superficial and not suitable for serious research :D
Just for sample: where in LMPSTCP classification versions of JPST with "LEATHERMAN USA" on pliers or with "US REG’D TM 1325473" on handle etc?
Why the need for these only 14 versions, if the PST's modifications (based on 22 parameters, see table) has known much more quantity and each modification has its own unique number.

JPSTs, by my counts, has 19 modifications (USA made PSTs - 134, but the speech now not about them).
It's my working JPST excel table (clickable):


Green fields - JPSTs that I have.

 
And about your questions:
Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 - answer "I'm not ever seen, these PST's modifications not exist". I'm not sure 100%, but 99% definitely  :)
Q5 - I agree with you - 10-15%

So, it's my thoughts/opinions  :cheers:

Outstanding work.  Thank you for your generosity in providing this table.   :salute:

Wow!  Just Wow!
"It didn't hurt, flirt, blood squirt, stuffed shirt, hang me on a tree
After I count down three rounds, in Hell I'll be in good company" -  The Dead South

us Offline J-sews

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 07:07:07 PM
Greg,
Great thread! I'm eager to participate, but....Despite being the guy who started the PST Chronology thread all those years ago, I have long since been left behind by the knowledge and understanding that you and other folks here have compiled in recent years. :-\ I would like to get caught up. Is there a summary description somewhere of the JPST versions 3], 4], and 5] that you refer to in your first post?

Also, for some reason I am not able to open the chart that Wowaboro linked to...? (I just get the little black box with the X in it that leads nowhere) :-[ :-[

Thanks!
Bob :)

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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 07:41:26 PM
Hey Bob :waving: I think alot of the info is edited into your first post in the Chronology Thread :tu:

Get caught up and then check to see where your PSTs fall in :cheers: :cheers: :like:
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ru Offline wowaboro

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 07:55:46 PM
Quote from: J-sews on January 08, 2017, 07:07:07 PM
Also, for some reason I am not able to open the chart that Wowaboro linked to...? (I just get the little black box with the X in it that leads nowhere) :-[ :-[
Thanks!
Bob :)

OK. Let's try another link:
https://yadi.sk/i/PhivRQcp37q3z8
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us Offline David

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #17 on: January 09, 2017, 09:19:37 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 06, 2017, 10:22:30 PM
Quote from: Poncho65 on January 06, 2017, 06:24:44 PM
It's great to have a list with all the variations for people who have been at collecting PSTs for a while :cheers: but as Greg said we need to keep the info to a point where it is useful to a more broad audience :tu: Someone just starting to collect PSTs or just looking for info on them might find it a bit overwhelming and just give up entirely if the info is to confusing :think: :D

It might even be worthwhile to start a PSTs for experts thread separately and put all the info you have compiled in it wowaboro :tu: Pics and all would be very nice as well :dd: :like:

I think a separate thread with a very detailed description of the minute variations is an excellent idea - that way ALL the information is in one spot for the JPST experts, but the summary form is still accessible for the non-experts.

Agreed!

To answer your questions Greg:

Q1-4   No

Q5   Have no idea the %
What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.
Hold Fast
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #18 on: January 15, 2017, 01:13:52 PM
Bump - Anyone else want to chime in on JPST rivets ?

If not, I was going to discuss JPST handle markings next.
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #19 on: January 15, 2017, 04:13:49 PM
Quote from: gregozedobe on January 15, 2017, 01:13:52 PM
Bump - Anyone else want to chime in on JPST rivets ?

If not, I was going to discuss JPST handle markings next.

None of mine were hollow rivets and I remembered that after posting that I would look :facepalm: :D So if no objections? :think: off to handle markings :cheers: :cheers: :D
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au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 10:24:37 AM
OK, time to talk about JPST handle markings  :D

I've just finished a survey of the handle markings on all my JPSTs and the following is what I've come up with.  I'd be interested in knowing whether anyone has seen any different regular production variants - I won't be surprised if there are a (very) small number of transitional tools made with components from two variants when the production line was changing over tool components.

NB There seems to be 3 distinct variants of the version 5] JPSTs (as listed below).  This is based on my fairly small sample size:  5 x v5.1], 3 x v5.2], 10 x v5.3]  so input from other JPST owners would be very useful.  Based on the evolution of markings etc I think variant 5.1] was the first version 5] production run, followed by 5.2], and 5.3] was the final production JPST.

3] All
Handle markings:
- Ruler:  Inches only
- File handle: "POCKET SURVIVAL TOOL" medium large font
- Knife handle: "LEATHERMAN TOOL" medium font,    "US PAT 4238862",     "PORTLAND OR" small font
- Large Screwdriver handle: blank
-Can Opener handle: blank

4] All
Handle markings:
- File handle: blank
- Knife handle: "LEATHERMAN" large font,    "(R) TOOL" medium font,     "US PAT 4238862" small font

5.1]  Hollow Rivets, Knife Tang: "LEATHERMAN" only
Handle markings:
- Knife handle: "LEATHERMAN" large font,     "(R) TOOL" medium font,      "US REG'D TM 1325473" small font

5.2]  Solid Rivets, Knife Tang: "LEATHERMAN" only
Handle markings:
- Knife handle: "LEATHERMAN" large font,     "(R) TOOL" medium font,    "US REG'D TM 1325473" small font (ie same as 5.1]  )

5.3]  Solid Rivets, Knife Tang: "LEATHERMAN, JAPAN"
Handle markings:
- Knife handle: "LEATHERMAN" large font, "(R) TOOL" medium font,  "REG'D TM 1325473" small font  (no "US")


Q6  How accurate does the above info seem for the JPSTs other people own/have seen ?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:25:42 AM by gregozedobe »
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 10:09:50 PM
I do have a couple with solid rivets :D So I will try to cheeck sometime this evening Greg :cheers: :like:
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #22 on: January 19, 2017, 12:16:54 PM
Quote from: Poncho65 on January 18, 2017, 10:09:50 PM
I do have a couple with solid rivets :D So I will try to check sometime this evening Greg :cheers: :like:

Well I got busy and forgot to check :facepalm: Will try this evening now :whistle: :D
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us Offline MUTman92

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #23 on: January 22, 2017, 08:39:53 AM
I have a large font JPST with hollow rivets, a larger than usual lanyard ring, the handle is marked US PAT 4238862, and the blade tang is stamped "Japan leatherman".  Hope this helps!

Ps, thanks Vladimir for this one! Spent a while searching for it :D
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 08:42:45 AM by MUTman92 »

us Offline MUTman92

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #24 on: January 22, 2017, 08:46:18 AM
Actually, I spent the longest time searching for a JPST with the "japan Leatherman" blade stamp. But of all the examples I've seen with this stamp, they also happen to have the large lanyard ring as well. Has anyone seen a JPST marke "Japan Leatherman" that didn't have the large lanyard ring or hollow rivets?

au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #25 on: January 22, 2017, 09:42:35 AM
Quote from: MUTman92 on January 22, 2017, 08:46:18 AM
Actually, I spent the longest time searching for a JPST with the "japan Leatherman" blade stamp. But of all the examples I've seen with this stamp, they also happen to have the large lanyard ring as well. Has anyone seen a JPST marke "Japan Leatherman" that didn't have the large lanyard ring or hollow rivets?

I haven't.  I think I've seen around 6-8 "Large Lanyard" JPSTs, and they all had "JAPAN, LEATHERMAN" on the blade tang.  I regard them as a very rare JPST version 4] variant, based on handle markings and hollow rivets.
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us Offline MUTman92

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #26 on: January 22, 2017, 10:09:02 AM
I see, thanks for the info!  :salute: id be very interested to hear the story behind the unique lanyard ring and blade stamp from the man himself.

us Offline MUTman92

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #27 on: January 22, 2017, 10:11:19 AM
It could be that they were the first batch of tools to come out of Japan after they switched from the no landward ring, riveted, "pocket survival tool" stamped pst's. any theories on this?

au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: Identifying Japanese-made PSTs
Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 01:07:51 AM
Quote from: MUTman92 on January 22, 2017, 10:11:19 AM
It could be that they were the first batch of tools to come out of Japan after they switched from the no landward ring, riveted, "pocket survival tool" stamped pst's. any theories on this?

I guess it is possible, but unless someone that was involved in the Japanese production at the time chimes in we'll never know for sure.   ???
babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."

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