Suspension hater video

[edap617]

Are all your tools that clean Eddie or do you have a magic camera

They are both really clean.    Do they not see a lot of use?

He's just got a good cleaning regime, you'd need it considering how humid it is the phillipeans

Thanks!

Considering the very high cost of USA made tools here I take very good care of them. They're not shelf queens, they take their turn as EDC.

Eddie

[hawkchucker]

I was actually given a Winchester tool as a thank you for playing santa this winter. It still is in the package, and will most likely be felled to that lonly position in the tackel box. Ya know the tool that sits there in filth and rust unused until you clean out the box in the fall and chuck it out.   

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I was actually given a Winchester tool as a thank you for playing santa this winter. It still is in the package, and will most likely be felled to that lonly position in the tackel box. Ya know the tool that sits there in filth and rust unused until you clean out the box in the fall and chuck it out.   

I think we've all got junkers like that

[J-sews]

The video guy is kind of right about the plier head. He points to the parting line in the metal as evidence of the reason it broke. But the Suspension pliers are not zinc or pot metal, they are stainless steel. The parting line is there because of how the plier was created.

It was most likely made using a Metal Injection Molding process, or MIM. High stress parts like plier jaws have no business being made this way. The structure of the metal is actually crystal-like, with no grain, and will fracture easily.

Tools should always be made by forging, a process that any blacksmith is familiar with. Forging actually strengthens the metal. But it costs more to finish-machine a forged part, whereas a part made using the MIM process can be cast to size, with no further machining required. 

So even though the Suspension jaws are made from stainless steel, they are still weaker than jaws of forged stainless steel.

[hawkchucker]

You also have to remember that there are also a ton of stainless recipies out there.

[Sea Monster]

The cost to the end user between a 16mm ring of 316 stainless steel - one forged and one done however they do it cheaply is about $100.

The finished product looks identical to the eye - but one has a breaking load of around 1200kgs and one at around 9000kgs.



Just a ring. Costs as much as a good Multi.

[hawkchucker]

Well I have allways gone for the hammer forged tools when possible. However with a lot of companies out there, You never have any idea what you are getting.   

[getpower]

To be fair though (as much as I lean towards Leatherman and Voctorinox), my new Leatherman tools (both the charge and Core) have casting marks on the pliers.

[Leatherman123]

I'm not too sure about that!

[jzmtl]

The cost to the end user between a 16mm ring of 316 stainless steel - one forged and one done however they do it cheaply is about $100.

The finished product looks identical to the eye - but one has a breaking load of around 1200kgs and one at around 9000kgs.

Just a ring. Costs as much as a good Multi.

$100 for one ring? You gotta be kidding.  Or are you talking about just making one not mass production?

And 9000kg? That means I can hung my jeep plus three others on ONE of them without it breaking?

[getpower]

Oh no, it has them for sure. The Core, the Wave, the Charge, and the new Skeletool all have casting marks on the bottom of the pliers.

Am I happy about it? Absolutely not! Who wants to admit that they bought a tool that could potentially be a piece of junk? Nobody. But am I worried about it? No. Theres a 25 year warranty that says I bought a great tool!

Theres nothing inside of the tool that will make it self-destruct a day after the warranty is up.

[Sea Monster]

$100 for one ring? You gotta be kidding.  Shocked Or are you talking about just making one not mass production?

And 9000kg? That means I can hung my jeep plus three others on ONE of them without it breaking? Shocked

I didn't say $100 for one ring, I said the difference was $100. The Cheap one costs $50 to start with 

Yes, Mass produced.  You can really only hang four jeeps off it on paper

Angles and things have strange effects on actual breaking loads.

[appletree_man]

Aren't these lines just from the two halves of the forging press ?   
I have a set of Knipex pliers, one of the world's best manufactuers, and an almost impeccable reputation, but it also has lines on the handles which look like mold lines, but I imagine it's from the forging process.

[Benner]

Aren't these lines just from the two halves of the forging press ?   
I have a set of Knipex pliers, one of the world's best manufactuers, and an almost impeccable reputation, but it also has lines on the handles which look like mold lines, but I imagine it's from the forging process.

Hopefully Bob will be along soon with the answer for us. 

[jzmtl]

$100 for one ring? You gotta be kidding.  Shocked Or are you talking about just making one not mass production?

And 9000kg? That means I can hung my jeep plus three others on ONE of them without it breaking? Shocked

I didn't say $100 for one ring, I said the difference was $100. The Cheap one costs $50 to start with 

Yes, Mass produced.  You can really only hang four jeeps off it on paper

Angles and things have strange effects on actual breaking loads.

$150 for one metal ring, and I thought knives and multitools are expensive...

[Spoonrobot]

Leatherman plier heads are investment cast, they always have been. As far as I know all the other multi companies use investment casting in their heads too.

Thank you for your email and your interest in Leatherman tools.

 

The pliers heads on our tools are not drop forged, they are investment cast with subsequent additional processing.

 

Mary Wintermantel
Customer Service Representative
Leatherman Tool Group, Inc.
(800) 847-8665 Ext. 438

[J-sews]

Thanks for checking into it Spoon. I assumed that the plier jaws were forged, for added strength.


More about the investment casting process from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_Casting

[Spoonrobot]

Thanks for checking into it Spoon. I assumed that the plier jaws were forged, for added strength.

Me too, kind of took it upon myself to decide that and never do any research until someone else brought it up. 

Is there a company that does forge their jaws? Victorinox, SOG and Gerber all show the same signs of investment casting as Leatherman. Assuming the forging process is too costly for the multi-market?

[joebw]

Hi All,

Being a Metallurgist, I've been using investment castings since the early 1970's along with conventional castings, forgings, bar stock and powder metal parts.  Each one comes with its own set of issues.   While a forging results in the densest stucture, a poor heat treat will screw that up.  The problem with forging is that details like plier teeth, wire cutters and whatever have to be machined into the piece.  The use of investment casting (sometimes called "lost wax" casting) allows these features to be cast to final dimensions.  The tooling is expensive, the process is expensive and the savings, over machining, is huge.

To avoid the strength issues of casting, it is important to realize that casting defects outnumber forging defects and require a bit larger thickness.  Nonetheless, if you fly or drive, you are riding on bunches of investment castings.  the main issue is whether you are dealing with a knowledgable company like Leatherman (Tim is a degreed engineer) or knock-off companies.

Best - Joe

[Spoonrobot]

Thanks for the info Joe.

I don't have any problems with investment castings, I've subject my Crunch to some insane forces and it's held up fine.

[NeitherExtreme]

We've been talking about MT companies, but I'm curious... what do other plier companies (Klien, Craftsmen, etc) do?

[J-sews]

Hmmmm, good question. (I'm trying not to "ASS"ume anything else on this topic) 


When I look closely at the serrations on my Leatherman jaws - both the fine ones and the coarse ones - it is obvious that they were cast in.

When I look at the serrations on a set of Klein heavy-duty lineman's pliers I have in the garage, it appears as if the serrations are cut in afterwards, perhaps using a broaching process. I can see machining marks and a slight "chatter" in the teeth.

So does this mean my Klein pliers were drop forged? (Like Joe said, a process that requires fine details to be machined in afterwards?)