Could Victorinox REALLY top the Juice?

[AimlessWanderer]

Odd question for a Victorinox loving, Juice loathing, Leatherman sceptic I know 

The thing that annoys me about the Juice line more than anything is how close to perfect they could have been. There are many things Leatherman got right with the Juice line, and on paper the CS4 is pretty much my perfect EDC carry tool ...

Pretty much the same size as a 84mm Victorinox or 85mm Wenger, which many people (on here at least) find to be the most pocketable size. A good sized set of medium duty pliers, sized to the optimum for the handle size, with the only downside being the effect it has on the drivers. A slightly shorter plier head, or slightly longer handle would make a big difference to those drivers. Sizing the tool up to match a 91mm SAK with the same size pliers would add 1/4" to the drivers and put them in a whole different league. There's also a great spectrum of choice over the range. Even allowing for the removal of the Pro and KF4, that still leaves five options (I think), each available in two different colours. The superb diamond file, the excellent pull saw, retaining a Philips driver whenever a corkscrew is added ... these are aspects for which LM should be applauded IMO

Conceptually the Juice is brilliant, and it has it's loyal fans, but it wasn't the rival to the SAK it could have been. I gave away my CS4 despite it theoretically being perfect for me as I couldn't get on with it. So what went wrong? Why didn't it become a bigger rival to the SAK, and should we really be looking to Victorinox to give us their version?

Well first of all, there's the issue of backsprings. The Juice's backsprings are great down the centre, and the drivers and plier heads have a reasonably authoritative snap on all the ones I've seen, but on the other implements they're a little soft and spongy. The hollow ground blades, which I suspect were designed purposefully to leave a robust spine to stop idiots snapping them, don't cut anywhere near as well as a SAK. Neither do the scissors, despite emulating Wenger's tried and tested methods

If Victorinox ever picked up the gauntlet as we often wish, the knife blades would be far superior, the can opener would work and the awl would be sharp. The useless and unnecessary wine assist would probably be dropped, a Spirit shaped plier head would leave room for longer screwdrivers, and all the backsprings would feel and sound as we want them to.

However ... Victorinox would want to make it their own design, and by default move away from the elements the Juice did get right. The ergonomics would change, the diamond file would surely go and the scissors would probably have a little pop-out spring.

But, what about if Wenger did it?

The scissors would become as Leatherman tried to get them in the first place, the backsprings, blades and everything else would all be as they "should be", plus imagine how fantastic the Juice would be with Wenger's locking screwdrivers.

So have we been metaphorically praying to the wrong Swiss Gods .... ?

[Grathr]

Thats a very good point! 
I hope someone at wenger reads this, and decide to take the challenge.
I know I would buy one.

[nuphoria]

Good post sir... good points too.

[Gareth]

It's funny that Al and I basically agree about the good points and shortcomings of the Juice.  It's only by the slimmest of margins that Al ended up giving away his Juice and I was happily carrying mine today and plan to do so for years to come.

Wenger are certainly a company who don't seem it mind trying something new.   BUT we have seen them come up with, and then stop, the mini-grip already.  We've also got the system they are using on the big Rangers, so I wonder if we might be more likely to see a smaller version of that at some point.

[Syph007]

I'm still trying to combine vic parts with the juice frame and plier head to end up with my perfect frankentool, but those damn LM springs are so bloody hard to bend, reassembling has put me off finishing the mod.  I need to make some sort of jig.  I would love if Vic just make a spirit junior.  I'd by at least 2, no 3,.. maybe 4. 

[kirk13]

I have to say that:
1)the KF4 is perfect!I just love mine to bits.In fact I think it might be my favourite LM,even given the price.
2)The Juices are let down by being stupidly expensive.I have an S2 as well as the KF4.II could forgive the nail breaking drivers,the iffy scissors and the asymetric handles if it were £20 or so cheaper
3)THe Wenger Minigrip is SSSOOOO nearly perfect too,being let down mostly by the plier locking system

Would Wenger do a better 'Juice'?Maybe,but both LM and Wenger could do better Minigrips and Juices,and really should!

Just to add another bone to contend,maybe SOG could do it,with compound leverage?

[AimlessWanderer]

It's funny that Al and I basically agree about the good points and shortcomings of the Juice.  It's only by the slimmest of margins that Al ended up giving away his Juice and I was happily carrying mine today and plan to do so for years to come.

Wenger are certainly a company who don't seem it mind trying something new.   BUT we have seen them come up with, and then stop, the mini-grip already.  We've also got the system they are using on the big Rangers, so I wonder if we might be more likely to see a smaller version of that at some point.

You're probably right mate  It's just soooo frustrating how close they came. That's how this thread started, I picked up my KF4 to clip to my belt, took it out, looked at it, had a little tantrum and came on here to vent my spleen  It's like someone baked me a really nice chocolate cheesecake, but then put tomato ketchup on it 

The problem with the Minigrip for me is it doesn't have a "flat" dimension. The plier handle sitting that height would be fine it it was narrower, and it would be OK that width if the pliers sat lower. As it is, it's just too round for want of a better term.

I must admit the KF4 is the least frustrating of the lot as it's handles are symmetrical, there's no crap can opener/wine assist, no crap awl, no floppy scissors. I'd be a hypocrite to call it anything like perfect though. I'm also bitter about how badly built my CS4 was - even Gareth said that mine was the worst he'd ever seen  I'm sure Wenger wouldn't have put it together like that 

[WWW]

 You've made some really good points sir!! I would surely love to see a dwarfed Spirit or a revisited Minigrip.

 I know is way too much overkill but I would spend some serious money if there was some tool in this size categorie with the compound leverage and replaceable wire cutters. I know that there would be a significant decrease of strength in the plier head, but after the ST300 and the Rebar I cant get without it. I'm sorry but I had to put it out!!

[AimlessWanderer]

Compound leverage would certainly be possible on a tool this size (they did it on the Crossgrip), but that would either mean Wenger impeding on SOG's patents or acquiring a license, or SOG picking up the baton and doing the tool complete - which with the best will in the world, isn't going to give us the PseudoJuice we're all looking for 

Picking up on Gareth's comments on a smaller version of the Ranger pliers - I have the RangerGrip 90 now, and sizing down that design to a Juice sized tool doesn't look practical. There's scope for a little resizing in my opinion, but not to that extent. Wenger did however miss a trick with these pliers, and with just a little redesigning could have stowed tools underneath as Victorinox did on their 111mm pliers and scissors ... but that's for another thread 

[powerring]

50ft-trad, I wish the forum software had a like button for your post and this thread.  Instead,  .

The SwissTool Spirit Mini needs to be made.  If it happens, I will give my other multis to the needy, cease thinking impure thoughts, and stop checking the vending machine coin return for extra change.      

[powernoodle]

Improvements to the Juice S2:

- lose the cap lifter that you have to jam down next to the scissor when closing
- increase precision on scissor, like the Vic Classic scissor.  I don't know how, but thats why you make the big bucks
- de-sharpen the flat drivers so that they don't kill your fingers, and ease up the spring tension
- redesign so that, when closing, the plier head does not jam into the flat drivers, making closing impossible
- spring-loaded plier head, like the Sidekick and Wingman
- release in new Powernoodle Blue special edition

[ironraven]

I have a KF4. At the time, I thought it would be the perfect tool. But I've drawn blood on the drivers too many times, they are too skinny. If they could fix that, lengthen it a bit (the 90-95mm range would be perfect!) and bring the price down to a competitive level, I think the Juices could snag a portion of the SAK market, but... Hasn't happened yet.

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

I got a sweet little S4 today, in perfect condition.  The scissors need a little work, but other than that it's a beautiful little keychain tool.  Matches up very nicely with my Executive.

I agree with most of the sentiments on the S2; probably my favorite Leatherman, but not without its flaws that could be addressed.  In addition to the points made above, I think it should have an FFG blade, instead of that crappy and weak hollow ground blade it has.  I'd also trade out the large flathead for a #1 phillips, even it had to be 2D.

[dks]

I have a few of the Juice line multitools though the S2 is the only one I actually use, when I need something a bit bigger than a keychain multitool but easily pocketable.

My main problem is the killer screwdrivers (I always know I will cut myself when I open them; emergency use only) and the overall looseness of the tool.
I am sure the SAK makers will produce a much tighter and confidence inspiring product.

[captain spaulding]

I know this is about the Juice, but I have to say this about Victorinox making tools that directly "compete" with others. Why does Victorinox not make a tool to compete with the LM Micra, S4, P4, PS4, CS, PS.......?  I would love to see a PS4 size Swisstool or Spirit.   


Sorry everyone. I had to get that out there.   

[Zed]

I had a juice KF4 but it stabbed me many times while i opened its tools  i personaly would rather carry my ppp than a juice as the juice is still not a super lightweight pocket option, im looking forward to getting the p4 though as a true pocket little MT, Good post Al 

[Farmman]

For me the main problems with the juice line are:
* the blunt awl. Easy fix with a belt sander.
* blunt can opener. It can be sharpened, however I never use it as a can opener and as a bottle opener ( yes I do use that) it works fine.

I understand what you mean about the flat drivers. I don't use them as I pair the unit with the sleeve bit exchanger for the Phillips.

[AimlessWanderer]

I agree with the comments about the pricing. They are particularly expensive here in the UK, and when a Juice is more expensive to buy than a Vic Spirit, people are going to leave them on the shelf 

I like the idea of spring loaded pliers, Noodle 

I understand what you mean about the flat drivers. I don't use them as I pair the unit with the sleeve bit exchanger for the Phillips.

For me having to carry around additional gubbins kind of defeats the pocketability. I think a tool should be able to stand on it's own merits ... even though I would probably pair it up with something else anyway ...  That said, having the ability so add on a bit driver for those who want/need one is another plus point for LM

[tosh]

50ft, I posted an almost identical question like this a while back.

I honestly think that were Victorinox to unleash a Juice sized Spirit onto the market, especially non-locking version with GOOD strong backspring, it would send ALL the competition back to their drawing boards - ALL OF THEM!!

The Rebar's, MT400's and PPP's are all well'an'good but they're not right and the frustrating thing is that Victorinox already has the winner - it just needs shrinking!!

I'd buy the MiniSpirit in a heartbeat, possibly 2 or 3, even if it were twice the price of it's bigger brother - It would in my view, simply wipe the slate clean.


C'Mon Vic' - Give Us What We Want  please

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

50ft, I posted an almost identical question like this a while back.

I honestly think that were victorinox to unleash a juice sized spirit onto the market, especially non-locking version with GOOD strong backsprings it would send ALL the competition back to their drawing boards - ALL OF THEM!!
The Rebar's, MT400's and PPP are all well and good but they're not right and the frustrating thing is that victorinox already have the winner it just needs shrinking.

I'd buy the MiniSpirit even if it were twice the price of it's bigger brother - It would in my view, simply wipe the slate clean.


C'Mon Vic' Give Us What We Want  please

Since my last post in this thread wasn't really on topic, just let me say I agree wholeheartedly with tosh here...

A scaled down version of the Spirit X is what I'd like to see.  I think they could make it work with full size 91 mm scissors and openers, and maybe an 84 mm main blade.  I'd love to see the Cybertool bit layer adapted for use in a small swiss-tool... that would eliminate the need for both openers, and allow the use of a combo style tool.  If they could build a ratchet directly into the bit driver somewhere, that would be even cooler!

I agree... please Victorinox... give us a smaller Spirit X!!!  Or, something like a Cybertool but pliers based.

[Mr. Whippy]

My opinion on the Juice series:

Good pliers, but they distort at the pivot if you really clamp down on the handles. 

The file on the Kf4 is fantastic.
The saw on the CS4 is fantastic

The scissors are sort of "meh".

The can opener is pathetic.

The knife is fine.

The phillips driver is fine.

The flat drivers make me absolutely crazy.  I completely hate them.  They are the sole reason I do not carry a Juice more often.  Terrible design.

If Victorinox could put out a competitor to the Juice (especially with that awesome chisel blade thingy on the Spirit) it would be great.

[Styerman]

The Juice would be pathetic alongside an 80% Spirit X . It survives , simply due to the fact that other Multies of this size are egually bad .

Chris

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said about the Juice line here, good and bad.  The scissors on my S2 seem fine; haven't had any real problem with them, in that they've cut everything I've tried with them.  Other than that, and my previous beefs, it's a decent little tool.

But still...

I'd rather have a small Spirit X.

[dks]

The juice comes in pretty colours!! 

The spirits(s) come in silver/grey/black...

Definitely easier to accessorise  with the Juice..
 

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

The juice comes in pretty colours!! 

The spirits(s) come in silver/grey/black...

Definitely easier to accessorise  with the Juice..

[tattoosteve99]

Mmmmmmm I wonder what would happen if I dived in and started modding multis like I do SAKs. A BO mini spirit

[tosh]

Mmmmmmm I wonder what would happen if I dived in and started modding multis like I do SAKs. A BO mini spirit

You'd end up working 24/7 to keep up with demand..    

[Gryffin]

My opinion on the Juice series:

Good pliers, but they distort at the pivot if you really clamp down on the handles. 

The file on the Kf4 is fantastic.
The saw on the CS4 is fantastic

The scissors are sort of "meh".

The can opener is pathetic.

The knife is fine.

The phillips driver is fine.

The flat drivers make me absolutely crazy.  I completely hate them.  They are the sole reason I do not carry a Juice more often.  Terrible design.

Good summary. I was in complete agreement until the end: other than being short, I don't have a problem with them. I know some folks get stuck in the cuticle by them, but I guess my fingernails are shorter than their's.

I'm also not 100% with you on the scissors. The length is VERY nice for cutting lighter material. The real problem is inconsistent riveting; I own eight or so; five or six of them are tight enough to cut well, the rest are a tad too loose. I could probably peen 'em to the proper tension, if I got motivated enough...

[Styerman]

I think that in a way Vic. has already topped the Juice , just look at the Deluxe Tinker , or the Handyman/Craftsman types , not to mention some members of the Cybertool family . Overall far better engineered , and more functional .

Chris

[AimlessWanderer]

I think that in a way Vic. has already topped the Juice , just look at the Deluxe Tinker , or the Handyman/Craftsman types , not to mention some members of the Cybertool family . Overall far better engineered , and more functional .

Chris

I actually did a direct comparison ages ago between a CS4 and Deluxe Tinker ...

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,25232.msg456045.html#msg456045

... but for the "plierphiles" an SAK might not always be sufficient