Fake Swiss Army knife report list

[gregozedobe]

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253996517637

Reported a week ago but it's still there. Mesaaged the seller too.

As usual, the listing is still there.
eBay... smurfing piece of smurf.

Seems to be gone now   

This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.   

[Reinier]

Yes, he pulled it after I told him about it.

[Reinier]

Yes, he pulled it after I told him about it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254032250619

[Reinier]

Suuuuuuure, that's a Vic

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.fr%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F372483089631

And this one:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.fr%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F372483089035

[Reinier]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283264776919

[twiliter]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283264776919

Does the "Imit." mean imitation?

[Reinier]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283264776919

Does the "Imit." mean imitation?

I guess. But it's still not allowed to use Vic's name

[twiliter]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283264776919

Does the "Imit." mean imitation?

I guess. But it's still not allowed to use Vic's name

I think the junky ones ruin the reputation of Swiss Army knives in general, I mean how many people think real SAKs are useless because of those worthless things. There oughtta ba a law! 

[Huntsman]

^^^  There is - But the Chinese manufacturers and many ebay sellers ignore it !!

This is also a brech and a con - As they use photos of a real Vic (first and last pics) intermixed with photos of the CCAK

CC = Chinese Crap !

[Reinier]

More crap.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m1364621105

[Serena]

More crap.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m1364621105

Reported it.

[Reinier]

I don't think selling some piece of no-name foam as a Victorinox product is allowed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202566292641

[Reinier]

More crap.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m1364621105

Reported it.

MP doesn't give a smurf!

[Serena]

More crap.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m1364621105

Reported it.

MP doesn't give a smurf!

Hmmmm…

[AlephZero]

I don't think selling some piece of no-name foam as a Victorinox product is allowed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202566292641

They actually don't sell it as a Vic product: "Foam is NOT made by Victorinox Swiss Army"

They are just selling it for storing Vic 91mm knives

[Reinier]

I know, I read it. But the title may be interpreted differently.

[Reinier]

More crap.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m1364621105

Reported it.

MP doesn't give a smurf!

Hmmmm…

I don't think I've ever seen them remove an ad that I reported

[kamakiri]

How does MTO generally feel about 'obviously' modified or restored, but not pointed out?

This is made of all Vic parts, but had parts from very different eras and a greatly re-profiled pruner blade. I wouldn't call it fake. But it is obviously modified/restored to me.



I'm thinking most collectors would know most of the issues that this knife has.  But two people bid on it...at prices I thought would make sense for an original +PAT version in similar cosmetic condition. 

Just curious about opinions on this here. I was interested in the knife for parts or as a user, but at significantly lower price in this case.

[El Corkscrew]

That's actually a production model, now discontinued, called the Picnicker.  That model would be '72-'74 w/ 5 turn corkscrew. The + PAT stops around '71. 

https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Picnicker_91mm

[kamakiri]

That's actually a production model, now discontinued, called the Picnicker.  That model would be '72-'74 w/ 5 turn corkscrew. The + PAT stops around '71. 

https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Picnicker_91mm

Understood, El C!    I have several of them plus some of the related Outdoorsman.

I was picking up on a bunch of timeline inconsistencies in this particular one, in that it has parts from at least 3 different knives of 3 different eras. Scraper and 5 twist CS generally go with the old shield Elinox style with Elinox tang stamp, The small v serrated tang would go with a 4 twist and no scraper on the cap lifter and either the new shield in NS or SS with the earlier Camping inlay alignment. The scale is of 90s vintage with that Camping inlay alignment and I've only found them with a big V main blade. The saw is correct for the earlier 2 eras, but certainly not the scale.

I guess I picked a bad example to discuss my point. The modifications aren't as obvious as I thought. 

[Mechanickal]

Keep in mind that Victorinox also restores SAKs with bits and pieces they have laying around

[kamakiri]

Keep in mind that Victorinox also restores SAKs with bits and pieces they have laying around

I thought about that, but Victorinox would've replace the pruner blade too. Original pruner blades have quite a hook on them.

There was a c. Late 50s Champion a little while back that looked like it had about half the parts replaced with modern ones. I was guessing that it was a Ibach repair...but didn't really know either way on that one.

[kamakiri]

Maybe this is a better example of what I mean:



Even aside from the shackle which isn't correct or Victorinox, it has no scraper (which I understand is possible, but rare for this vintage). Updated scales, single leaf on the newer scissor, and the +PAT. At the very least it started as a '68-'71 Champion 'a', with the shackle, scales, and spring replaced - the knife 'obviously' restored/modified/repaired at some point. Seller is silent or unaware of the issue.

Would anyone else call this 'fake'?

Also attaching same files as I only linked the pic earlier.

[kamakiri]

This shot shows what I mean about the camping alignment:

The knife in question has a scale like 2nd from the left.

3 eras of Picknicker...just for reference on the scales:

Knife in question would have the scale on the bottom or middle, at the latest.

[El Corkscrew]

That's actually a production model, now discontinued, called the Picnicker.  That model would be '72-'74 w/ 5 turn corkscrew. The + PAT stops around '71. 

https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Picnicker_91mm

Understood, El C!    I have several of them plus some of the related Outdoorsman.

I was picking up on a bunch of timeline inconsistencies in this particular one, in that it has parts from at least 3 different knives of 3 different eras. Scraper and 5 twist CS generally go with the old shield Elinox style with Elinox tang stamp, The small v serrated tang would go with a 4 twist and no scraper on the cap lifter and either the new shield in NS or SS with the earlier Camping inlay alignment. The scale is of 90s vintage with that Camping inlay alignment and I've only found them with a big V main blade. The saw is correct for the earlier 2 eras, but certainly not the scale.

I guess I picked a bad example to discuss my point. The modifications aren't as obvious as I thought. 

The scraper and 5 turn corkscrews stayed with both the Elinox and Victoria lines until around 74.  They introduced a cap lifter without scraper in '69 but then went back to including it until 74 as well as the clip point small blade and 5 turn corkscrew.  A lot of these changes were happening concurrently so you'll find knives that don't follow the rules that were made when changes happen, especially in the early 50's, 70's, and 90's.  The inlay looks like the first incarnation of the camping inlay.  At this time they were experimenting with different scale materials and changing tools. I don't believe the Champion or Picnicker are mods or repairs, I think they're OG.    I believe that is a ca. 1969 Champion and a ca. 1974 Picnicker.

If you want more details about this stuff you can look at some of JazzBass's posts or Huntsman's SAK Dating Diagram.

 

[kamakiri]

The scraper and 5 turn corkscrews stayed with both the Elinox and Victoria lines until around 74.  They introduced a cap lifter without scraper in '69 but then went back to including it until 74 as well as the clip point small blade and 5 turn corkscrew.  A lot of these changes were happening concurrently so you'll find knives that don't follow the rules that were made when changes happen, especially in the early 50's, 70's, and 90's.  The inlay looks like the first incarnation of the camping inlay.  At this time they were experimenting with different scale materials and changing tools. I don't believe the Champion or Picnicker are mods or repairs, I think they're OG.    I believe that is a ca. 1969 Champion and a ca. 1974 Picnicker.

If you want more details about this stuff you can look at some of JazzBass's posts or Huntsman's SAK Dating Diagram.

 

  Thanks for the reply and discussion, El C! I've spent most of my lurking time going through the dating and timeline resources here and most of what I 'know' is derived from what I've read here, but also furthered somewhat by my own collecting frenzy. I've actually read all of JB's posts back to somewhere in 2015, and have followed Huntsman's chart progression thread from near its beginning. I agree with most of your post above and agree with many of the MTO 'known' inconsistencies compared to official Victorinox published data. I've found a lot of it on my own.

That said, I'm fairly certain that the Camping inlay on that knife is the 4th iteration (not including 3 Hoffritz varieties) that I know of and is after the three in my picture above and reposted bigger here:

I think a c. '74 knife should have the Nickel Silver one in the middle. The earliest I can date the first Stainless Steel ones (top in the pic) is c.'76.

If you look at the back of the Picnicker in question, it has the Crossbow OS tang stamp and not the Victoria VOS crossbow as I would expect c. '74.

I don't mean to be a bother. 

[Mechanickal]

To answer your original question:

No, I do not think it makes these knives fakes.
Even if they were repaired, it was done by a craftsman or Vic themselves.


Imagine your car breaks down...
You'll have a bunch of options, but I'll use 2 as an example.

- you have your car repaired at the official dealer and you're on your way.

- you have the car repaired at a professional garage where they replaced some parts with unofficial parts.

Is your car a fake after situation 2?

Now, I'm not saying that if your garage builts a Delorean from home made parts, that It would be a Delorean... but a SAK still is a SAK to me when built with the right parts by the right people.

[kamakiri]

Thanks for that Mechanickal!   

So if I stipulate that the example knives in question are repairs, then I'm really discussing the difference between a 'good' or 'correct' repair/restoration vs. 'other' repair or restoration.

In the case of the Picnicker, I do see it likely that the source for that serrated small 'v' main blade are other picnickers or outdoorsman.  So it's not like sticking Kia parts in a DeLorean...except maybe with that shackle!

[Mechanickal]

I do have to admit that my interest in a certain specimen will decline when I find out it was repaired outside of Victorinox.
My Alumnus got repaired at Vic and now sports the wrong tang stamp for it's age. But this does not mean it's now a fake SAK, just less interesting for collectors...

A dude in his shed can throw together a bunch of parts and build a SAK. While not being a genuine SAK made by Vic or Wenger, it's not what I'd call a fake either. So the word "mod" comes along often and might be the best way to describe it.

So if a seller is selling his SAK that he knows isn't fully made or repaired by Vic, should sell it as "modified" if you ask me. But sadly, that's usualy not in the seller's mindset outside of MTO.

[kamakiri]

I think that's fair and accurate.  I usually think of 'mod' as changing anything about the original configuration of the knife.  Many sellers often list when scales are replaced or 'upgraded' but that has good connotations when compared to beat up TSA finds.  But there are very few sellers that say they repair or modify anything even when they regularly do.  Hence my original question.

Thanks again Mechanickal!