New explorer Damascus in commemoration Mr.Carl Elsener senior.

[tosh]

Yes, I do find it a shame that fake damascus sells for such a premium, when it is not better than any other good quality steel, but looks pretty and has a legacy that it has hijacked.

Agree.

Sure I read that the explorer was what Carl carried?? But, what amazes me is that of all the reasons for Vic to bring out a totally never before seen tool set, they used the bog standard Explorer with simple FLAT wooden scales and fake Damascus  .

Hmm, wow what a tribute    - like I previously said I think it sums up victorinox's modern day mindset.

Forgive me for saying this, I really mean no harm by it - but here in the UK we often use the the phrase " he would sell his own grandmother for quid" I can't help but relate this  so-called limited addition to that quote. It just seems a cop out to get more money in the coffers!!

[sticktodrum]

I don't understand. What's fake about it?

[burnside]

It's not true damascus, but I believe it is called damasteel. Hardened at 60 Rc and supposedly a small step up from ATS-34 in quality. Very cool steel, and in my opinion, definitely worthy of SAK limited editions regardless of the scales being used.

[sticktodrum]

I don't know many people who are forging "real" Damascus these days. Most makers use more sophisticated technology in order to get specific outcomes in their product. Most of my experience with Damascus steel is from Kai products, namely their models that used Alabama Damascus and Devin Thomas Damascus, but also the Damascus Sebenza.  Both are great, and seem to perform very well in terms of cutlery performance. I never knew them to be referred to as fake Damascus, and I don't see why there is such a negative attitude toward a powdered metallurgy process to create patterned steel.

It looks like a lot of folks here are angry at it, and I don't get it. Maybe it's me...

As for the large number in a limited run, I'm personally happier for it. I've seen complaints like this toward Kai (my favorite knife company) when Zero Tolerance made limited run models, and had serial numbers that exceeded the initial quantity proposed. The people who made a stink about it did so by saying that it ruins the collectible nature of the knife. Maybe so, but that really only matters if you're solely interested in resale value. It ended up screwing the guys who get on pre-order lists and then flip them for a massive profit. For me, I was happy for the extra opportunity to get one.

To me, this is along those lines. Good, let them make 7,000 of them. It'll be easier for me to buy a couple of them and put one right in my pocket. Frankly, I'm not too worried about resale value and I can't give much credence to anyone who openly begrudges a company for souring it a little. It's way harsh to call it a scam, and I'd go so far as to say it's childish. They put out a bunch of 50-piece runs this year, many of which I missed out on. Certainly there's plenty of collectibility there to play around with.

If Elsener loved his Explorer, then I think this is a fair tribute. They could have just released a regular ruby one or something with a silver etching of his signature and a serial number on the liner like the LE Spartan. I much prefer the model they're making, regardless of the motive.

Lastly, I don't understand how one could begrudge a company for wanting to make money. Everything in the world is getting more expensive, and I'd prefer Vic do a LE like this one that turns them a profit instead of completely axing the 50-piece limited runs that may not be profoundly lucrative for them.

[microbe]

I wish they had made 7000 of the 2010 Pioneer damascus. At least it would not go for a grand now, and I'd be able to get one.

[Raukodur]

The point about it being fake is this:

No-one produces or can produce what was 'damascus' steel. That involved a combination of a specific ore, and a specific production process. I won't go into details here, there is a wealth of information very easily available on the internet about research that has been done on specimens of real damascus to identify why they were considered such special weapons.

What we have nowadays is a process that mimics the look of damascus, but does not have its properties. Yes, a good knife manufacturer producing damasteel knives will be using a steel that not only looks good, but is a 'good' steel, but it is by no means 'special' (other than its look), with regards to its metal properties, and it is not as good as many of the other super-steels, in fact, I am sure most damasteel is not even considered a 'supersteel'

Yet when you look at the prices, damascus blades can sell for more than better steel counterparts. And more than you would expect to be just due to the aesthetics of the knife, for which yes, you could be expected to pay a reasonable premium.

Why can knife manufacturers charge this premium, and why do they get away with it, i.e. why do their exorbitantly priced damascus products sell?

Because they are advertised using lies, with all this crap spouted associating them with the REAL damascus, which they have nothing to do with other than their look. Sure, they might not outright say it is ancient damascus, but to someone who hasn't read up about this stuff, they would think it is not only the aesthetics which are unique, it is also the metal properties, it is mystical, it is using ancient technology, etc etc.

That's what annoys me.

[sticktodrum]

I have yet to see any company market a current day Damascus knife as ancient, or magical. If one is going to use that kind of standard to gauge whether or not something is "real" or "fake," then we're all speaking fake languages, eating fake food, taking fake medicine, and using fake knives to cut things.

To simply associate "real" with old world technology that used inferior steels to compose a solution of metals that would at all perform decently as an edged tool seems disingenuous. It's a standard that doesn't work with other things, and rightly so, since it's an unrealistic standard.

What lies exactly, are there? They call it Damascus, and by what I've read, that's all they've done. By today's production means of making Damascus steel, it isn't far off.

As for specialness, I can't agree. I've read that the Damasteel they use is run at 60HRC, and has similar edge retention as 154CM. I can't verify if that's true until I test it myself, but 154CM at 60HRC is pretty special. I'd say it's a better performer than the S30V that LM uses on their Charge, which I found at 57HRC the last time I had it tested. Could be different now, but that's beside the point. Is this stuff going to perform like S90V at 62HRC? Probably not, but why would anyone want it to? It's a SAK, not a hard use 4" folder.

Kershaw sold a Skyline in Damascus, and it was a limited run. They charged $50-55 for it. Chris Reeve sells (sometimes) a Devin Thomas Damascus Sebenza. Last one I saw at Blade Show cost over a grand. Why do their products sell? Because people want them. Knife manufacturers who are putting out limited editions using whatever Damascus steel they want don't need to lie to anyone to sell them. They make them, they advertise them (or in CRK's case, they don't), and they sell.

If you really are reading that Victorinox is publishing false information and lies about this product, then I'd like to see what sources of information you have that I don't. Not only do I say that they don't "outright say it is ancient damascus," I say they don't even imply it. Someone who hasn't read up on this stuff likely doesn't even know or care about the magical mystical properties of Damascus steel dug up by archaeologists and revered for how it cuts things like Superman's laser vision. To some people, it's a patterned metal that looks cool. In this case, it should perform very well.

I'm sorry, but your grudges and standards don't automatically equate to lies from a manufacturer and assumptions from a consumer base.

[bmot]

{...}



Someone who hasn't read up on this stuff likely doesn't even know or care about the magical mystical properties of Damascus steel dug up by archaeologists and revered for how it cuts things like Superman's laser vision. To some people, it's a patterned metal that looks cool. In this case, it should perform very well.

I'm sorry, but your grudges and standards don't automatically equate to lies from a manufacturer and assumptions from a consumer base.

That's what I was gonna say... Before I came here, I honestly never heard of Damascus steel at all...

[jeroen.thys.37]

If you don't like it - just don't buy one... Victorinox isn't the cheapest, but offers quality. We define the "limited factor" by how good it sells... An item limited to 100 pcs with butt-ugly scales/design doesn't sell and isn't realy limited, but if it looks good enough for the consumer it is very limited (black ice design- 2000 pcs). Respect for every opinion here! That's why it's a forum... 

[Raukodur]

I did not say all companies market their damascus in this way. And I am not talking about a knowledgeable knife purchaser. But even if products are expensive, that does not mean that the majority of people who buy them know what exactly they are buying.

Doing a quick google search for damascus knife brings up links for knife sellers with this information:

-----------------------------
Sharpened using the same techniques as those used to make Samurai swords, Damascus knives undergo a process of lamination where the super-hard carbon steel core is layered with 67 coatings of stainless steel for a distinctive blade that is strong yet flexible with a superior cutting edge. This multi-layering technique is believed to have been discovered in Damascus around 300BC – hence the name – eventually making its way east to be perfected by Japanese sword-smiths where the blade’s finish was aptly named ‘kasumi-nagashi’ or ‘floating mist’. Full tang with an ice-tempered blade, each beautifully balanced knife has a riveted handle that gives you excellent precision and control.
------------------------------
Damascus steel was used for swords in of years ago. Outdoorsmen and knife enthusiasts are aware of its symbolism of uniqueness and artistry. With that in mind, KnifeArt.com is proud to offer Damascus steel knives of unique style, quality and craftsmanship.

The unusual blade that is the essence of custom Damascus knives is pleasing to the eye. Its distinctiveness in appearance appeals to a wide range of people. When searching for a knife that combines the aspects of versatility and usefulness, these knives are a surefire choice to fill all needs.
----------------------------
Damascus steel knife blades are made using an ancient technique for making steel for swords. European, Japanese and Middle Eastern bladesmiths all developed the technique to make a stronger yet flexible blade by combining metals with different properties. The process also created beautiful blades with a distinctive pattern embedded within the steel.
-----------------------------
The reputation and flair of Damascus knives stretches back over 17 centuries to legends of Damascus blades cutting through a rifle barrel and slicing a strand of hair in two. The modern technique of creating Damascus steel involves forging together multiple layers of steel to create a strong and remarkable blade. At Knife Depot, you can spice up your knife by opting for the distinctive markings of Damascus steel. Our assortment of Damascus knives includes everything from kitchen cutlery and pocket knives to swords and Bowie knives.
-----------------------------
A STORY OF POWER, MAGIC AND EXCLUSIVITY
The technique to create the steel that has everything was developed a few hundred years before the birth of Christ. Its properties were unique - an unbeatable strength combined with durability. The steel's patterned surface was also more beautiful than anything before. The so-called damascus steel established a superior reputation. Sword blades, daggers and spears of damascus steel were reliable in battle. Chiefs and powerful rulers with such weapons in their hand were thought to be almost impossible to defeat. Damascus steel was not just a sign of power and wealth; the steel also has long thought to have mystical qualities. The forge welding technique - layering two types of steel in seven sheets - was developed and refined over time. Creating damascus steel's magical design involves the finest smith craftsmanship and is proof of ultimate craftsmanship. Damascus steel's exclusivity spread throughout the world over generations. Among Roman and Celtic warriors, Viking chieftains and Arabic emperors - damascus steel has always been synonymous with respect, strength, beauty and class for great leaders.
-----------------------------


Now sure, the major manufacturers don't make claims like this, but they also do not clarify that the damascus you are buying is not made by the same process or using the same ore as what people think off when they think of damascus, which is the historical item. You might say they aren't obliged to do this, but I would disagree, if you have two things with the same name, you should clarify what it is exactly that you are selling, otherwise you are taking advantage of what that name implies.

It is the reason why companies do not allow others to use the names of their products, do you think Apple would stand anyone else producing an iphone? Hell, they even went nuts over the samsung galaxy tab looking 'similar' to their ipad which may confuse the consumer and cause them to accidentally buy a tab rather than an ipad, when in fact they don't even look remotely similar.


But I was making a general statement, I would be the first to say that I like the look of damascus, and would be willing to pay a premium for the look, and if I was going to buy any damascus, it would be Victorinox (if I could afford it). And of course you also have the added factor here of it being a limited edition (of 7000), and a commemoration piece.

So my argument about damascus doesn't apply so much to this item, but I do believe in general damascus is misadvertised and misunderstood by the knife buying public, which is one factor allowing it to be so exorbitantly priced (and of course this is a generalisation).

[felinevet]

  Agree totally!

I don't know many people who are forging "real" Damascus these days. Most makers use more sophisticated technology in order to get specific outcomes in their product. Most of my experience with Damascus steel is from Kai products, namely their models that used Alabama Damascus and Devin Thomas Damascus, but also the Damascus Sebenza.  Both are great, and seem to perform very well in terms of cutlery performance. I never knew them to be referred to as fake Damascus, and I don't see why there is such a negative attitude toward a powdered metallurgy process to create patterned steel.

It looks like a lot of folks here are angry at it, and I don't get it. Maybe it's me...

As for the large number in a limited run, I'm personally happier for it. I've seen complaints like this toward Kai (my favorite knife company) when Zero Tolerance made limited run models, and had serial numbers that exceeded the initial quantity proposed. The people who made a stink about it did so by saying that it ruins the collectible nature of the knife. Maybe so, but that really only matters if you're solely interested in resale value. It ended up screwing the guys who get on pre-order lists and then flip them for a massive profit. For me, I was happy for the extra opportunity to get one.

To me, this is along those lines. Good, let them make 7,000 of them. It'll be easier for me to buy a couple of them and put one right in my pocket. Frankly, I'm not too worried about resale value and I can't give much credence to anyone who openly begrudges a company for souring it a little. It's way harsh to call it a scam, and I'd go so far as to say it's childish. They put out a bunch of 50-piece runs this year, many of which I missed out on. Certainly there's plenty of collectibility there to play around with.

If Elsener loved his Explorer, then I think this is a fair tribute. They could have just released a regular ruby one or something with a silver etching of his signature and a serial number on the liner like the LE Spartan. I much prefer the model they're making, regardless of the motive.

Lastly, I don't understand how one could begrudge a company for wanting to make money. Everything in the world is getting more expensive, and I'd prefer Vic do a LE like this one that turns them a profit instead of completely axing the 50-piece limited runs that may not be profoundly lucrative for them.

[felinevet]

Amen, well said!

If you don't like it - just don't buy one... Victorinox isn't the cheapest, but offers quality. We define the "limited factor" by how good it sells... An item limited to 100 pcs with butt-ugly scales/design doesn't sell and isn't realy limited, but if it looks good enough for the consumer it is very limited (black ice design- 2000 pcs). Respect for every opinion here! That's why it's a forum... 

[felinevet]

 

I have yet to see any company market a current day Damascus knife as ancient, or magical. If one is going to use that kind of standard to gauge whether or not something is "real" or "fake," then we're all speaking fake languages, eating fake food, taking fake medicine, and using fake knives to cut things.

To simply associate "real" with old world technology that used inferior steels to compose a solution of metals that would at all perform decently as an edged tool seems disingenuous. It's a standard that doesn't work with other things, and rightly so, since it's an unrealistic standard.

What lies exactly, are there? They call it Damascus, and by what I've read, that's all they've done. By today's production means of making Damascus steel, it isn't far off.

As for specialness, I can't agree. I've read that the Damasteel they use is run at 60HRC, and has similar edge retention as 154CM. I can't verify if that's true until I test it myself, but 154CM at 60HRC is pretty special. I'd say it's a better performer than the S30V that LM uses on their Charge, which I found at 57HRC the last time I had it tested. Could be different now, but that's beside the point. Is this stuff going to perform like S90V at 62HRC? Probably not, but why would anyone want it to? It's a SAK, not a hard use 4" folder.

Kershaw sold a Skyline in Damascus, and it was a limited run. They charged $50-55 for it. Chris Reeve sells (sometimes) a Devin Thomas Damascus Sebenza. Last one I saw at Blade Show cost over a grand. Why do their products sell? Because people want them. Knife manufacturers who are putting out limited editions using whatever Damascus steel they want don't need to lie to anyone to sell them. They make them, they advertise them (or in CRK's case, they don't), and they sell.

If you really are reading that Victorinox is publishing false information and lies about this product, then I'd like to see what sources of information you have that I don't. Not only do I say that they don't "outright say it is ancient damascus," I say they don't even imply it. Someone who hasn't read up on this stuff likely doesn't even know or care about the magical mystical properties of Damascus steel dug up by archaeologists and revered for how it cuts things like Superman's laser vision. To some people, it's a patterned metal that looks cool. In this case, it should perform very well.

I'm sorry, but your grudges and standards don't automatically equate to lies from a manufacturer and assumptions from a consumer base.

[burnside]

The Damasteel that Victorinox uses is very  worthy.

[rmagralha]

http://luxuryactivist.com/luxury/victorinox-explorer-damast-limited-edition-2013/

Man.....this waiting is killing me, even worse than waiting for customs for 2 months.....

[captain spaulding]

The Damasteel that Victorinox uses is very  worthy.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Man, You ain't kidding!!!! 

[ICanFixThat]

  I still can't wait to get mine.  It's still the plan that it will be my pocket knife for at least 2014 if not longer. I wonder which country will get them first?  It looks like Vic is very close to letting this one out in the wild.

[microbe]

Spotted one: http://www.ricardo.ch/kaufen/sammeln-und-seltenes/sonstiges/victorinox-damast-2013-blitzauktion/v/an725791926/

[TheCore]

My shop got it today, the Elsner is availible in Austria. I will go for it tommorow

[sticktodrum]

So...it's coming! 

[papercut]

I just want the Damascus Wenger White Ranger.  Now that is a sweet knife!  I'd pay $200 for that in a second :p

[Reinier]

I am trying to pre order one (or more ).
Ordered

It looks like only 80 pieces will be available here in The Netherlands.

[jaydar]

Maybe tomorrow in Switzerland ..... hoping for a phone call

[sir_mike]

I wonder when they will be available in the US?

[enki_ck]

I wonder when they will be available in the US?

Tim said in January

[sir_mike]

I wonder when they will be available in the US?

Tim said in January

Okay, thanks!

[SAK]

It's already available here in CH from the 14 dec, why do you still wait ?

If somebody has problem to get one (or to get a United Woods set), you can contact me and I can play the role of deputy service. So, no worry.

[TheCore]

I got it !!!

[sticktodrum]

Pretty.

[sawman]

Where's the toothpick and tweezers