Bad Swisstool Spirit?

[3rdpig]

My Spirit lines up perfectly so it's apparent that it's not misaligned as a design requirement, it's just the amount of tolerance that's allowed when holes are being drilled.

The misalignment doesn't bother me on my Rebar that I paid $40 for, but it might on a Spirit I paid $100 for.
Victorinox has spoiled me, I expect their tolerances to be considerably closer than anyone else's. And let's face it, part of the enjoyment of any Victorinox product is the satisfaction we get from an extremely well made product.  If the misalignment takes away from that you'll never be fully satisfied with it.

[Monrogue]

Every Spirit I've seen has this issue.  My first one was misaligned, and I sent it back to Amazon for a replacement, and it too has the same issue.  I didn't bother sending this one back though as it really doesn't hinder anything, it's more just a minor annoyance when I set it down on a flat surface.  I also bought one through work for keeping in a tool drawer, and it also has the same issue.  I have yet to see/handle one that isn't misaligned to some degree.  It's odd that there seem to be so many like this, but at the same time, many that are perfectly aligned   It wouldn't hurt to try to get a replacement.  You may have a 50/50 shot, but either way, you can rest assured that it will still more than likely be an awesome tool

[Thunderpants]

"let's face it, part of the enjoyment of any Victorinox product is the satisfaction we get from an extremely well made product.  If the misalignment takes away from that you'll never be fully satisfied with it."

That's it, in a nutshell.

Well, I will probably keep this one in the car on the off chance I break down and somehow am able to rebuild the entire engine and gearbox just using a Swisstool and a pack of Wet-Wipes...

The aesthete in me really yearns for a Spirit RT -- though the idea of paying 129 euros for one doesn't thrill me. That's a lot of cat food...
And if I got a wobbly RT I'd be really cheesed off!

[AimlessWanderer]

My RT does NOT sit flat, and I still think it's perfect 

I have just been looking very closely at my S model for signs of where this may originate, and by design they are assymetrical. Handle pieces wrapped to sit one above the other beneath the spring plate, assymetrical backspring plate, fractonally differentthicknesses of flange either side of the void where the pliers pass to stow ... Plus, everything has been done with such a good fit and finish, that a tiny sqareness variation at the pliers will be amplified at the other end. The place where the two handles connect to the pliers is roughly 1/20 of the overall length of the tool. If each hole drilled in the pliers was given a squareness tolerance of 0.05mm (0.002"), this will be amplified 20x at the opposite end of the handles so 1mm (0.040") per handle, meaning a potential offset of 2mm. Note: I am just making these manufacturing tolerances (of 0.005mm) up for the sake of illustration. That's not taking into account that the handles themselves are just stamped/pressed pieces of sheet, NOT precision machined components.

Slight digression ... When I first started working in engineering, it was in the drawing office designing sheet metal working machinery. I know from professional experience that despite the level of machine resolution and repeatability you manage to attain, every batch of material responds slightly differently as regards memory/springback during cold working. Back on track ...

If the pliers are a sloppy fit in the handles, or the pins are a sloppy fit in the holes, there will be movement for that to be taken up. If it's a smooth operating and close fitting assembly, less movement will be permitted. Just how precise do you expect these manufacturing tolerances to be? Do you think they should make some pieces a sloppy fit and compromise how well the tool works just so that the tool sits flat on a piece of glass?

With respect to all, I'm looking at this from a practical perspective and having at least some appreciation of manufacturing processes, costs, and what is achievable. I feel that this unease with the tool's inability to sit flat is less a reflection on Victorinox's design and standards of manufacturing, and more a reflection of the owner of the tool.

I mean no offense whatsoever by these comments, but this whole topic is like complaining that the heads on Sunwaymans high powered torches get warm

[Thunderpants]

"I feel that this unease with the tool's inability to sit flat is less a reflection on Victorinox's design and standards of manufacturing, and more a reflection of the owner of the tool."

Lol! You got me. I have a secret fetish for putting random objects onto smooth pieces of glass so I can test for wobbles...

I get what you're saying about the manufacturing process. It just seems to me that Victorinox and other companies routinely make stuff to an astonishing level of accuracy. Most objects (and this is in the bible so it must be a fact) regardless of who made them tend to sit firmly on a flat surface. Every time I read a review about, say, a cell phone, the reviewer goes ballistic if the phone doesn't sit flat. If I bought a printer, or a chair, and it wobbled, I'd think this is sloppy. So a precision tool either should act like any other ordinary object and sit still on a wobbly table, or it should be clear that that is the intended design. (If that is the intended design, it's an odd decision. And if it's an accidental by-product of the manufacturing process, it looks sloppy. To me as an outsider - this is my first multitool - it came as a surprise to find my Spirit doesn't abide by the same rules of design as pretty much every other object ever made by man.

It is my learned opinion that the only things that should wobble in this world are breasts.

But I still like this Swisstool thing.

[AimlessWanderer]

It is my learned opinion that the only things that should wobble in this world are breasts.

 

[AlephZero]

It is my learned opinion that the only things that should wobble in this world are breasts.

 

+1

[firiki]

I’m glad 50ft took the time to write this post. It treats on matters I couldn’t talk about coherently in English, not that I’m in any way educated in actually designing anything. After I brought my Spirit at home I gave the issue we’re discussing some thought, having also seen my Swisstool’s handles go slightly diagonal when unfolded –one part of each handle sitting a little higher that its counterpart. 

I came to the conclusion that this difference on the Spirit, is either part of the tool’s design or well within its limits. The pliers jaws meet perfectly all the way and the handles work just fine though they are slippery. Actually, I think this effect could be attributed to the fact that this is a folding pair of pliers, each handle being tightly fastened on a jaw of which it is supposed to be a straight extension. When unfolded they come in place with no noticeable misalignment. I don’t know the cause of this -that I call a curve- but it is present on both tools and manifested in another way. These are my observations and could be very far from the truth.

Some remarks. I try to put the Spirit down on one handle so as to avoid unnecessary strain on the lock tabs. However, these 2mms of space under my finger make it easier to pick the tool up. I honestly believe that if anyone else were offering such good craftsmanship they would be asking a way higher price. Butt cheeks also wobble sometimes. 

[Thunderpants]

"Butt cheeks also wobble sometimes."

Now there's something I'd like to have carved on my gravestone!

Yep for the price it's pretty ridiculous - it seems crazy to complain. It's just that we're talking about perfection and expectations of perfection. It's like growing up expecting to marry Marilyn Monroe and ending up with Heidi Klum. Takes some getting used to...

As I said, I'm learning to love this little Spirit. Looks great, works great... let those butt cheeks wobble, the hooters look great on this thing.

(For the record, I don't usually talk like a sexist idiot. Just on this forum, for some reason...)

[Taxi Dad]

you'll be led into all kinds of bad habits here sir 
Welcome to 

[Thunderpants]

I know. Before you know it I'll be talking like a sailor and own 73 different types of Swisstool...

[jerseydevil]

Damn you people.     I had to go check my Spirit X after reading through this thread.  Yes, it wobbles a tiny bit.  No, it doesn't bother me one bit.  I didn't even notice it until 20 minutes ago.  That being said, I agree with Al 100% in his ramblings above.  Not sure if that's a good thing or a scary thing....   

[AimlessWanderer]

Damn you people.     I had to go check my Spirit X after reading through this thread.  Yes, it wobbles a tiny bit.  No, it doesn't bother me one bit.  I didn't even notice it until 20 minutes ago.  That being said, I agree with Al 100% in his ramblings above.  Not sure if that's a good thing or a scary thing....   

Be afraid, be very afraid 

[pingu]

Following up here and not here...

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,9743.msg931526.html#msg931526

...because my Spirit is boxed-up and winging its way back to Amazon.  Not in the owners club any more.

Overnight my disappointment has changed to a touch of anger at being let down by what I thought was the epitome of MT engineering.

Looking at my LM MTs none of them are misaligned but my first NIB Juice had pliers jaws which jammed between the drivers and others complain of Rebar plier jaws which jam if the awl is deployed.   Can't test that myself as I moved my Rebar tools around before checking.  Anyway I consider that an annoyance as the problem can be avoided and when closed up the tools look "perfect".

I realise that mechanical engineering tolerance build-up is at work here.  With my inboard tool LMs the plier jaw needs to be removed from the handle before deploying the tools but with the Spirit the tools get deployed with the plier jaws in situ.   The tools are well crammed in, a much tougher design and tolerance challenge.

I'm convinced that a production "go/no go" test is not handle alignment but plier jaw centering in the handle - and there is a production stage which if necessary centres the plier jaw possibly leaving the handles slightly misaligned.  Can't quite bring myself to spell out how that might be done but I imagine it hurts .  Considering the number of misaligned handles reported (50%?) the handle alignment "go/no go" test is passing the product at 2mm.

So the search continues for the perfect MT.  It's just not going to be the Spirit.

[zoidberg]

So the search continues for the perfect MT.  It's just not going to be the Spirit.

Its a shame you're ruling it out over something so small that has no effect on its function.

[pingu]

So the search continues for the perfect MT.  It's just not going to be the Spirit.

Its a shame you're ruling it out over something so small that has no effect on its function.

Well, for function I have Juice S2 and Rebar with Kick and Fuse in reserve as well as a couple of perfectly engineered SAKs.

Unlike the LMs because of the riveted construction I do not feel up to removing the blade lock so it was never going to be an ideal EDC for me.

I wanted a "perfect" Spirit for the owning pleasure.  I'll confess to sorrow but not shame.

[zoidberg]

So the search continues for the perfect MT.  It's just not going to be the Spirit.

Its a shame you're ruling it out over something so small that has no effect on its function.

Well, for function I have Juice S2 and Rebar with Kick and Fuse in reserve as well as a couple of perfectly engineered SAKs.

Unlike the LMs because of the riveted construction I do not feel up to removing the blade lock so it was never going to be an ideal EDC for me.

I wanted a "perfect" Spirit for the owning pleasure.  I'll confess to sorrow but not shame.

That changes things a bit. I do hope that one day you come across a mint one to take home and enjoy.

[Monrogue]

Bummer about your Spirit issue and how it has somewhat soured you on them   Handle misalignment bugs me as well.  I sent my original Spirit back to Amazon as well, but got another one with the same issue, but not quite as severe, so I accepted it.  It's odd too, because when the pliers are opened, the handles look perfectly aligned, but not when closed

[pingu]

Bummer about your Spirit issue and how it has somewhat soured you on them   Handle misalignment bugs me as well.  I sent my original Spirit back to Amazon as well, but got another one with the same issue, but not quite as severe, so I accepted it.  It's odd too, because when the pliers are opened, the handles look perfectly aligned, but not when closed

There are a quite few comments about this on Amazon.de.  This is one -

"The offset of the clamps was even more pronounced in the replacement! Angry, I then turned me to customer service by Victorinox. Here is an excerpt: . "Tongs for the SwissTool and SwissTool Spirit are produced by precision casting A slight misalignment of the two handle halves within the production tolerance and can not be avoided "

Originally in German and translated by Google.  Some translations are worse...

A theme is that some of the German reviews express engineering bewilderment.   I'm also bewildered at the (alleged) Victorinox "can not be avoided" explanation.  I note the (alleged) Victorinox explanation does not state the handles are purposely misaligned but is a tolerance issue.   I think we are all MT enthusiasts here and want to *understand* a "can not be avoided" explanation for an issue that I have never seen on a Leatherman.

Rant over.  This is off my purchase list and I am at peace.  Perhaps on reflection its the riveted construction which has been fatal to my interest.  Crunch looks tempting...
 

[Humppa]

Sorry, I don´t understand that german-english translation. But I just looked closely at my Spirit and it had the same issue.

But it doesn´t bother me at all! When it´s closed it doesn´t fit 100 % but when opened it´s perfect. It´s a tool and that´s it. Not a piece of art.    

[comis]

Bummer about your Spirit issue and how it has somewhat soured you on them   Handle misalignment bugs me as well.  I sent my original Spirit back to Amazon as well, but got another one with the same issue, but not quite as severe, so I accepted it.  It's odd too, because when the pliers are opened, the handles look perfectly aligned, but not when closed

There are a quite few comments about this on Amazon.de.  This is one -

"The offset of the clamps was even more pronounced in the replacement! Angry, I then turned me to customer service by Victorinox. Here is an excerpt: . "Tongs for the SwissTool and SwissTool Spirit are produced by precision casting A slight misalignment of the two handle halves within the production tolerance and can not be avoided "

Originally in German and translated by Google.  Some translations are worse...

A theme is that some of the German reviews express engineering bewilderment.   I'm also bewildered at the (alleged) Victorinox "can not be avoided" explanation.  I note the (alleged) Victorinox explanation does not state the handles are purposely misaligned but is a tolerance issue.   I think we are all MT enthusiasts here and want to *understand* a "can not be avoided" explanation for an issue that I have never seen on a Leatherman.

Rant over.  This is off my purchase list and I am at peace.  Perhaps on reflection its the riveted construction which has been fatal to my interest.  Crunch looks tempting...
 

It is rather conflicting to understand, isn't it?  On one hand, I always marvel at how precise is my Spirit made, and how each individual tools can be easily opened and closed like 'butter', yet the misalignment is part of the tolerance allowance.

But in reality, I don't plan to put the tool and trying to level it all day, so it is still by far my favorite MT to use/play with.

[pingu]

Sorry, I don´t understand that german-english translation. But I just looked closely at my Spirit and it had the same issue.

But it doesn´t bother me at all! When it´s closed it doesn´t fit 100 % but when opened it´s perfect. It´s a tool and that´s it. Not a piece of art.    

Hi Humppa

I was going to leave this thread having made up my mind to spend the money on a Crunch (or perhaps a Wenger Evo 18).  Something to make me feel better.  But since you are from Germany perhaps the German original is interesting to you and your comments useful to English speaking members.

I did not think the Google translation was easy to understand.  Here is the full review in German...

oder ... bemerkenswerte "Produktionstoleranzen" einer Schweizer Präzisionsmanufaktur.

Schade!
Das Produkt macht egtl. einen sehr guten Eindruck: Verarbeitung, Haptik, Optik alles sehr gut.
Leider weisen die Griffhälften einen deutlichen Versatz auf. Offensichtlich kein Einzelfall. Das Austausch-Tool wies ebenfalls einen vergleichbaren Versatz (s.Fotos) auf.

Eine Anfrage beim Victorinox AG Kundenservice war ebenfalls wenig hilfreich: "[...] Die Zangen für das SwissTool und das SwissTool Spirit werden im Feingussverfahren hergestellt. Ein leichter Versatz der beiden Griffhälften liegt innerhalb der Produktionstoleranz und ist nicht zu vermeiden." Meine eingesandten Fotos wurden "an [die] Qualitätskontrolle weitergeleitet"
Eine Rückmeldung der Qualitätskontrolle erfolgte -erwartungsgemäß- nicht.

Wer dieses Multitool also in der Hoffnung kauft eine bessere Qualität als beim großen amerikanischen "Vorbild" zu bekommen, wird -entgegen der sonstigen Qualitätsanmutung des Werkzeugs- im Bezug auf den Versatz der Griffhälften mit einer Produktionstoleranz "belohnt", die offenbar deutlich über der von 15-Euro-Baumarkt-Tools liegt.

Anmerkung: Versand und Rücksendung über Amazon wie üblich perfekt.


Can you explain a better context for "can not be avoided"?

I struggle to understand why parallel grinding and vertical drilling isn't producing better results.  I think that is something that Leatherman manages on every tool I have seen.

One of the Amazon.de reviews speculated about a bad batch.  My open question is what happens to the significant number of returns to Amazon?

[AimlessWanderer]

Sorry, I don´t understand that german-english translation. But I just looked closely at my Spirit and it had the same issue.

But it doesn´t bother me at all! When it´s closed it doesn´t fit 100 % but when opened it´s perfect. It´s a tool and that´s it. Not a piece of art.    

Totally agree! No other tool comes in for that kind of scrutiny either 

Tell you what - for those who baulk at buying a Spirit with slightly misaligned handles, go and spend exactly the same money (if not slighly more) on a Juice XE6 instead. That way you'll have a blunt awl, ineffective can opener, corkscrew assist that chips bottles, horrible floppy scissors, most likely a saw that dives in behind the awl when stowed, stumpy screwdrivers that cut you, a pointlessly undersized knife blade (newer models) AND handles that aren't level ...

At least that way you'll have something worth whining about for your money  Sorry guys, but this really is a lot of fuss about nothing IMHO

[pingu]

Sorry guys, but this really is a lot of fuss about nothing IMHO

But not IMHO, and the point is its my money.   I've done some "wise after the event" research and many agree.

BTW I have a "warty", one handle thinner (but perfectly aligned) Juice S2 .  I like it.  It was supplied with the usual flaws but none I couldn't address.

[zoidberg]

Can you explain a better context for "can not be avoided"?

I struggle to understand why parallel grinding and vertical drilling isn't producing better results.  I think that is something that Leatherman manages on every tool I have seen.

The Leathermans I use have handles made from one piece that is folded.
Extras like the blade safety locks and locking tab spring are riveted onto this folded piece.

The handles on the Spirit have separate sides that are riveted together with the tools spring piece.
Then there is the folded insert for the pliers, which is thicker and has four raised bumps as the plier contact area.

The issue with the handle alignment on my Spirit however comes from the plier pivot.
It has the slightest wiggle as most of my pliers do but it is enough to allow the handle to move out of line.

I have Leathermans with worst handle alignment. Not to mention other isues like the file rub or safety locks.

[Syncop8r]

So the search continues for the perfect MT.  It's just not going to be the Spirit.

Third Law Of Multitools: There is no such thing as The Perfect Multitool.

[colt 1911]

Mine does not lay flat, one corner is off the table.


Sak's  rule !

[pingu]

Can you explain a better context for "can not be avoided"?

I struggle to understand why parallel grinding and vertical drilling isn't producing better results.  I think that is something that Leatherman manages on every tool I have seen.

The issue with the handle alignment on my Spirit however comes from the plier pivot.
It has the slightest wiggle as most of my pliers do but it is enough to allow the handle to move out of line.

Thanks for the useful technical feedback, something I had been hoping for.  I wish I had taken some pictures before returning mine but have gone again to Nutfancy.

Wow, that is some complicated and dimensionally challenging angled plier handle bush.    It doesn't look like there are parallel surfaces to grind.

Oh well I guess there is a design reason but the result doesn't suit me.  My prerogative, moving on.

[zoidberg]

Can you explain a better context for "can not be avoided"?

I struggle to understand why parallel grinding and vertical drilling isn't producing better results.  I think that is something that Leatherman manages on every tool I have seen.

The issue with the handle alignment on my Spirit however comes from the plier pivot.
It has the slightest wiggle as most of my pliers do but it is enough to allow the handle to move out of line.

Thanks for the useful technical feedback, something I had been hoping for.  I wish I had taken some pictures before returning mine but have gone again to Nutfancy.

Wow, that is some complicated and challenging angled plier pivot.    It doesn't look like there are parallel surfaces to grind.

Oh well I guess there is a design reason but the result doesn't suit me.  My prerogative, moving on.

Just pointing out that when I said plier pivot I was meaning what joins the two plier halves together.
Not the plier to handle rivet area.
Sorry for not being clear with my words.

[pingu]

Just pointing out that when I said plier pivot I was meaning what joins the two plier halves together.
Not the plier to handle rivet area.