Coloured alox Why??

[tosh]

Okay, I realise I sticking my head up here, but......

I really don't get why anyone would want to pay 3, 4 times the price for a coloured alox over a regular silver finish 

I'm totally at a loss. Vic doesn't appear to charge the markup on coloured celidor SAKs but the price difference on alox is just downright robbery. I admit, I know nothing about the anodizing process, but c'mon is it really that much more expensive to produce coloured anodizing.

Forgive me for saying this but I personally think it's just a blatant rip off.

Each to their own, I know. I'm pretty certain gerber didn't triple the price on the coloured mp600 variants.

I do quite like the coloured alox though, but would never buy for reasons given above.

If on the other hand victorinox used different metals for their upmarket range of alox, i.e titanium, brass, bronze etc etc. I could actually understand the price hike - but never for simply coloured anodizing.

[derekmac]

I love me some coloured Alox!  I wouldn't pay too much more for it, but a little is ok by me.


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[nate j]

I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that Vic (or their distributors) charge a premium for regular production alox knives simply because of the color.  As an example, I looked at Vic Money Clips on a couple of US websites, and found the following:

                      Plain/Silver                     Red                         Black
Site A             $31.20                           $28.76                    $31.06

Site B             $33.99                           $32.99                    $33.99

I think what you have observed is the following:
- With regard to discontinued knives, the color may impact the (real or perceived) rarity and or desirability, and thus the price.  In economic terms, since the supply is fixed or even decreasing (i.e. no more are being made or supplied at the manufacturer's price), the demand alone drives the price.
- With regard to knives that are limited production runs, distributor exclusives, or customs, it is that fact, rather than the choice of color, which may drive the price far above the cost of regular factory production knives.

[Luna Knife]

Some of the older colored ones were rare in the only 50-100 were made per year.  There is some good info on sakwiki.  Those new apolopse green ones are templing

[Mr. Whippy]

When it comes to Farmers, I canNOT refuse different alox colors

[Fattsgalore]

You may be seeing the price of those limited editions, at least red and black (2 great options) aren't priced to differently than the silver ones.

Limited run your paying exclusivity, doesn't matter the product, it's how it works. You should see what these kids are paying for basketball shoes these days. It's laughable since they are made in China for pennies on the dollar.

[condcup]

I'd like one in red, blue, orange, yellow, there so many colors.

 

[sticktodrum]

Someone would be straight up cray-cray if they paid good money for some junk like this:






 

[Mr. Whippy]

Someone would be straight up cray-cray if they paid good money for some junk like this:

(Image removed from quote.)

 

I Gots 2 of those 

[Syph007]

The process to do colored anodizing costs negligibly more in theory.  It's just adding dye that gets trapped in the oxide layer.  There is an issue though with a higher defect rate on colored anodize.  A tiny spec of silver showing though on standard clear anodize, youd never see it, but on red or black its very noticeable.

Other than that, there isn't an inherent extra cost to doing colors.  Hard anodizing is a different process though and has its own issue.

And as to why people pay for other colors... some are harder to find and more 'fun' to get I guess.  Plus if they only made them in silver thats not much of a pioneer collection.

[ColoSwiss]

Someone would be straight up cray-cray if they paid good money for some junk like this:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)


 

Guess I'm cray-cray plus. 

[glorn]

I wonder if M&Ms would be cheaper if they only came in gray.

[PTRSAK]

I wonder if M&Ms would be cheaper if they only came in gray.

arrrggg.  how could I eat the red ones last if they were all grey? 

[kirk13]

Tosh has a valid point...coloured Pioneers,a Farmers and Cadets cost more than Thier plain sisters.

They charge more,cos we'll pay it

[tosh]

TBH I'm going through a bit of a negative phase at the moment 

Don't really know what's started it off, but for some reason I've got the daggers out for victorinox. Their whiter than white reputation is beginning to look more and more like a shade of grey.

Due to marketing techniques they often left wenger in the shadows - yet I'm beginning to feel that maybe wenger were actually more passionate about their product than victorinox.

We all know wenger was light years ahead in the innovation stakes. Rumour has it that the business tool was actually the nail in the coffin. 

Their relentless search for the optimum tool designs has left us all a legacy to value and respect. Their limited editions were actually just that....limited.

Worth noting that the wenger heritage knife was restricted to less than 2000, victorinox on the other hand managed to quadruple that figure. That latest stunt by Vic', the Carl Elsener commerative knife - basically an explorer with wood scales and Damascus main blade (not true Damascus mind) is  a limited edition - wow  until I just read limited to 7,000!! 

I'm beginning to think that maybe the real winner here really was wenger.
This talk that victorinox wanted to keep wenger in Switzerland, preserve jobs etc etc. blah blah blah - cynical me doesn't buy any of that, more like they were acutely aware that wenger had the very real possibility to topple the mighty Vic off Its perch.
Can you imagine if someone like Tim came along. Young, full of enthusiasm and a real passionate desire to turn the company around,  to rewrite the book, so to speak. I'm beginning to think that Vic buying wenger was not unlike big consortiums buying new patents and locking them away, remove the threat, out of sight, out of mind.

But, like I say - maybe I'm just going through a negative phase...or maybe my eyes have been opened!!

[pfrsantos]

I like the different colours but won't pay 2x the regular silver price for them. Maybe if the sales weren't so good they'd lower the price...

 

[Lynn LeFey]

tosh, I think you might want to look at the color Alox knives in a different light. Vic had to diversify away from knives to stay alive, but they have a niche market for collectibles. So, they are producing what sells, and helps keep their knife line alive.

Those folks who buy a gazillion variations of the same knife in different colors are helping to keep the SAK industry going. They get a neat looking knife, even if the price is a bit elevated, and Vic gets to stay profitable, and keep making a quality product.

As for Vic being afraid of Wenger, I don't think so. Wenger was failing, or failed, as a business. Innovation and market success are NOT the same thing. I've seen that repeatedly. Better ideas don't win, better marketing and price point, with 'good enough' ideas do. That's not saying that I think Vic only had 'good enough' ideas, just that they are the epitome of caution, IMO, as opposed to Gerber's scattershot 'try everything' approach.

I am an absolute LOVER of plain silver Alox scales. I have a Farmer and Cadet, and think they're both great. I've considered a silver Money-clip. But I think it's great that Vic also makes a bunch of other colors, for folks that are into that. It's not my thing, but I'm happy for those folks who love it.

Just some thoughts.

[ducttapetech]

I kinda with Tosh on this one. Vic did buy Wegner to keep it in house, but that was not the only reason.  While Wenger kinda failed as a business, it did cause Vic to bring out the 111mm line to name one. Wenger has a lot of cool tech that we might see on some Vics newer Saks. But lets face it, Vic is a way bigger company with more resources to work with. Wenger on the other hand not so much. Its was a sad victim of a bad economy and it is not the only business that was powerless to stop it. If Wenger was able survive, I think Wenger wouldn't have overthrown Vic, but they would have gave Vic a serious run for there money and would have cause Vic to do some rethinking.
As far as the colored alox goes, yes I think some of it is a little over priced. I am not talking about the custom mods or limited runs. I love alox line, I got a farmer from Felinevet a few years ago for 30 bucks shipped but a black alox pioneers where going for 50 bucks everywhere else. I bought my bo LM Surge for $60 and it has a smurf ton more tools on it and a hell of a lot more metal in it. I know certain things drive up the price here and there, but damn.

 


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[CanadianLMfan]

I want the zombie green Pioneer but it's too much.

[AimlessWanderer]

Vic had to diversify away from knives to stay alive, but they have a niche market for collectibles. So, they are producing what sells, and helps keep their knife line alive.

Those folks who buy a gazillion variations of the same knife in different colors are helping to keep the SAK industry going. They get a neat looking knife, even if the price is a bit elevated, and Vic gets to stay profitable, and keep making a quality product.

As for Vic being afraid of Wenger, I don't think so. Wenger was failing, or failed, as a business. Innovation and market success are NOT the same thing. I've seen that repeatedly. Better ideas don't win, better marketing and price point, with 'good enough' ideas do. That's not saying that I think Vic only had 'good enough' ideas, just that they are the epitome of caution, IMO, as opposed to Gerber's scattershot 'try everything' approach.

Completely agree on this. Two similar products, but two different business models. One exercised caution in their primary product line and survived, the other took chances and failed. Of course it is feasible that the chances could have paid off and thing would now look different, but they didn't, and they don't.

Once Vic had bought up Wenger and was running them side by side, the innovation continued and Wenger were still willing to try new and different things, even under Victorinox's ownership. From that perspective, it's unfair to infer that Wenger was unfairly restricted by Victorinox to give Vic a commercial advantage. It's also naïve. Why would you own two separately operating companies, but only want one to thrive? You wouldn't. Unfortunately it came to a point where things needed to change, and a commercial decision was made based on what was best for the Company. Whether that decision is what I want to see or not is irrelevant, it's about making sound business sense and ensuring they move forwards on a sound footing.

[tosh]

I don't know if I agree with you Al on this or not. You obviously know more than I.

But, it's tragic that after 120yrs they stop production....but wait that's all they've done! The brand name still exists and the dies and casts too. Could it be brought back when the markets pick up??

If I had to choose between either of them today it would be without doubt wenger. I find victorinox bland and stale. Ooh, wow a coloured alox!!!....oh gawd...give me strength.

The current Vic line up  is basically same old same old. With wenger out, who's left with the genuine Swiss SAK? Who's their main rival? Nobody. So if you're looking for a SAK it's either Vic' or, or......


Let's go back in time...

Vic Butane Lighter
Vic MP3 Player
Vic Auto-Tool
Vic Sport Ratchet
Etc etc..

What is it today?    

What is it that most want??
Well off the top of my head I just know that a Farmer with both inline Philips and scissors would be very well received,
As would a Juice sized Spirit.

Do they know this..of course they do

Will they give it to us...no

Did wenger listen to its customer...yes they did actually!!

Its a shame that wenger were not sold to an overseas buyer (not  China) for no other reason than to give Vic the kick up the rear it needs.

The irony for me is that any new Vic lines that resemble wenger, will ultimately be wenger to me - NOT VICTORINOX, regardless what the bloody name says.

[enki_ck]

I think you're forgetting that Victorinox didn't just now take over Wenger. They did it 8 years ago. So quite a few of those cool designs and the new rangers, evo scales, different wood handled SAKs were all done while they were owned by Victorinox already. Same goes for the Heritage SAK you mentioned, done in 2008 when they were already owned by Victorinox.

How many companies in the world do you know would run a competing company right next to it's own line for 8 years? Can you imagine Apple buying Samsung mobiles and keeping the Galaxy models for 8 years?

As for the colored alox, the only ones that are priced high are the limited edition ones. Some of them have tools no longer available in the standard line, like the marlin spike for example. They only started selling those to the collectors in recent years. You won't find those in regular shops. Just a few selected dealers (our FelineVet being one of them) get to offer those for sale. And I don't even think the general public knows about them. Did you before you joined this forum?

The regular colored ALOX SAKs go for regular prices. THe red and black Cadets from last year are priced the same as the silver Cadets. The hunter green Cadets for Target were about $17 at the time they came out. The orange ones from a few years back also in the more sensible region. We had the Danish ALOX recently that was also listed at normal prices, might be higher than the US prices for regular silver ALOX, but those are the prices for most silver ALOX I see over here too. The italian black alox Farmer is priced cheaper than the silver Farmer available from a lot of european sellers.

I understand your sadness for losing one of the most important manufacturers in knife history, but I think your anger is directed the wrong way.

Hope your Woody Wengers arrive soon if they haven't already.

[sawman]

I've wanted a blue and green alox Pioneer for a long time but I'm not willing to pay $120 each for them. Therefore, I will not have them in my collection. That's pretty much all there is to it. It's not worth it to me, so I don't buy it. I have a few coloured alox pieces but not as many as I would like.

For what it's worth, I love silver alox by itself. The colours are nice, but not necessary. And one plus (depending on how you look at it) with silver alox is it keeps a newer appearance than the coloured alox.

I'm actually appalled by how much they're charging for the new "black ice" products and refuse to buy them. I want to  people who do buy them thus rewarding Vic for such an overpriced product. But I don't control the market and I must just tolerate it.

[AlephZero]

I think you're forgetting that Victorinox didn't just now take over Wenger. They did it 8 years ago. So quite a few of those cool designs and the new rangers, evo scales, different wood handled SAKs were all done while they were owned by Victorinox already. Same goes for the Heritage SAK you mentioned, done in 2008 when they were already owned by Victorinox.

How many companies in the world do you know would run a competing company right next to it's own line for 8 years? Can you imagine Apple buying Samsung mobiles and keeping the Galaxy models for 8 years?

As for the colored alox, the only ones that are priced high are the limited edition ones. Some of them have tools no longer available in the standard line, like the marlin spike for example. They only started selling those to the collectors in recent years. You won't find those in regular shops. Just a few selected dealers (our FelineVet being one of them) get to offer those for sale. And I don't even think the general public knows about them. Did you before you joined this forum?

The regular colored ALOX SAKs go for regular prices. THe red and black Cadets from last year are priced the same as the silver Cadets. The hunter green Cadets for Target were about $17 at the time they came out. The orange ones from a few years back also in the more sensible region. We had the Danish ALOX recently that was also listed at normal prices, might be higher than the US prices for regular silver ALOX, but those are the prices for most silver ALOX I see over here too. The italian black alox Farmer is priced cheaper than the silver Farmer available from a lot of european sellers.

I understand your sadness for losing one of the most important manufacturers in knife history, but I think your anger is directed the wrong way.

Hope your Woody Wengers arrive soon if they haven't already.

+1 This

Yeah I got the Green Alox Farmer, but that was just because I wanted it... I'm not going to say anything about Wenger, because I never really got the liking, but saying that Victorinox only bought them because they felt threatened.. thats just crazy talk, if they were threatened, they would have not been able to

[tosh]

I understand your sadness for losing one of the most important manufacturers in knife history, but I think your anger is directed the wrong way.

Hope your Woody Wengers arrive soon if they haven't already.

Thanks for the input enki, but even though what you're saying is perfectly logical, I still see it differently.
You are quite right that before I joined this incredible forum, I knew next to nothing about wenger. Yet, here amongst all like minded people it quickly becomes apparent just how much wenger and victorinox differed. You mention the 8yrs wenger has been owned by victorinox, I'm trying to think what victorinox has released within the last 8yrs.
Sorry, its still the same old same old. Only now in limited colours and scales 

It must be a huge boost to victorinox that their knives are issued to various armed forces. That virtually every single camping shop, tool shop, gadget shop etc etc seems to carry the victorinox line- fantastic marketing. I'm pretty certain with that amount of coverage brand wenger could have been pushed more and priced fairly.

I will shed no tears, why would I? Doesn't matter a jot to my life, but as I say, if a 3rd party had entered into the swiss mix it would certainly have pepped things up. As it is, victorinox is beginning to look as though its followed leatherman by way of example.

I bet CRKT would have stirred the pot no end given half a chance.- but that's just idle speculation, no one will ever know what might have been.

[CanadianLMfan]

I've wanted a blue and green alox Pioneer for a long time but I'm not willing to pay $120 each for them. Therefore, I will not have them in my collection. That's pretty much all there is to it. It's not worth it to me, so I don't buy it. I have a few coloured alox pieces but not as many as I would like.

For what it's worth, I love silver alox by itself. The colours are nice, but not necessary. And one plus (depending on how you look at it) with silver alox is it keeps a newer appearance than the coloured alox.

I'm actually appalled by how much they're charging for the new "black ice" products and refuse to buy them. I want to  people who do buy them thus rewarding Vic for such an overpriced product. But I don't control the market and I must just tolerate it.

This is a really good point. I think that sometimes Vic overdoes it in pricing. The Black Ice series is a good example. I would not pay $80 to $100 more just for a black blade and a new lanyard. I feel really bad for people who give in to these marketing ripoffs.

[AlephZero]

Just because

And yeah, I paid about 80 euros for mine

[nate j]

It must be a huge boost to victorinox that their knives are issued to various armed forces.

I'm sure Vic appreciates their military and government customers.  However, the company makes tens of millions of knives per year, so the numbers would suggest the bulk of their sales must be going into private and or commercial hands, rather than military.

Sorry, its still the same old same old.

Perhaps so.  But hey, if it ain't broke...

[papercut]

The white cross red alox is what attracts me. 

As to other colors, nail polish is a great solution, especially for a user!

[Etherealicer]

Wenger vs. Victorinox
First I don't think that the 111mm has anything to do with Wenger. Its the result of Switzerland being in bed with the European Union. This meant that the Soldier 08 Knife competition would have been open to companies from all over the world. Fearing that some Chinese manufacturer would outbid Vic, simply for the bragging rights, a decision was made to upscale the knife. Larger + OHO equals weapon and therefore was not subjected to international competition.

I think one huge difference between the two brands is where they originate from. While Wenger is from the canton (state) of Jura (French speaking) Victorinox is from the heart of Switzerland, canton Schwyz (German speaking).
So Wenger is by nature the more playful company. Bringing out more different products, probably even being more innovative. But ultimately if you have too many products when compared to the sales numbers profit diminishes and that is why Wenger failed.
Victorinox is almost completely resistant to change. They evolve very slowly but I dare say most of their products are winners. Also I find their products much more refined, e.g. the 111mm are much more comfortable to hold than the RangerGrip.

By default Alox scales cost the same for the same product. For example red/black/silver MiniChamp all cost the same. However, more exotic = rare lines differ with the simple mathematics, lower production number = higher price. And herein lies the contradiction. If you are unwilling to pay more for smaller production lines you ultimately doom them to fail, be it colored Alox or "exotic" Wenger Knifes. As a matter of fact, to me it appears to be the other way round. Wenger had to produce SAK at Victorinox price level without the same sales volume. No need for a degree in economics to see the problem there.

And yes, I think Victorinox could use a kick in the but to bring out some more innovation (like the sak with a measuring tape, seen in the museum). On the other hand I believe their main profit comes from Perfume / Cloth / Watches and Kitchen Knifes, so while the SAK's are important to their reputation they certainly are not their money cow.