The Second Great Space Race?

[Don Pablo]

I added the Saturn V photo (attempting to account for the not visible engine nozzles), the BN3 booster/SN8 starship photo overlay was done by someone else.   

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Edit: perspective is a bit off between the starship booster and the Saturn V. Additionally the photo of the upper starship part was taken nearer to the ground, so it's not as angled as it should be.
If someone were to provide a Saturn V photo with the same perspective as the starship booster (aka straight on view from the ground at a fair distance), I could fix the whole thing.

[Nix]

And size isn't everything.

That Starship is likely to be reusable is pretty darned impressive.

[Nix]

Do more? Well, do more, then.

Ford Model T: goes down the road.
Bugatti Chiron: goes down the road.

Like you, Beagle, I'm not impressed by sending a man into space. It is not an accomplishment. I'm not sure it ever was. 50 some years ago we put a man on the moon. What did it accomplish?

Nothing. It was neat. Like climbing Everest. Which also accomplishes nothing. But is neat for everyone who does it now.

I think it is a mistake to focus on putting people into space. Life support systems and living space is a waste of space and weight that could go toward other payload. The focus should be on scientific exploration using robots and rovers. Automated experiments. Automated observation.

Why do wee need a fleet of space shuttles? We don't. And that's why we don't have a fleet of Space Shuttles.

A lunar telescope might be useful. But a moon base? With people hopping around doing little experiments and drinking Tang in a low-G environment?  We need that? I'm guessing not. Otherwise we would have built it by now.

The first "space race" was about ideological ego. The current space tourism rush is about personal ego. Like climbing Everest, but a bit easier. Material exploitation of space resources is next.

We live in an age where people seek external experiences and recognition to define themselves and fulfill a sense of purpose and relevance. Maybe this was always a trap, ever since the Sagas. Floating around in "Zero G" is the new thing. And what does it accomplish?

I'm impressed by the new technology. It is truly exciting to watch a Starship launch and land. The prospect of dozens or hundrends of Starships launching and re-launching on a regular basis is mind-blowing.

But I have to ask, as SeaMonster hinted, what will it truly accomplish?

[pomsbz]

But I have to ask, as SeaMonster hinted, what will it truly accomplish?

To provide distraction for the human psyche? Not sure it will work though any more, it's not a 'first'.

[Don Pablo]

I'm impressed by the new technology. It is truly exciting to watch a Starship launch and land. The prospect of dozens or hundrends of Starships launching and re-launching on a regular basis is mind-blowing.

But I have to ask, as SeaMonster hinted, what will it truly accomplish?

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/18/1026556/nasa-bioprinting-artificial-organs-space/

https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/kilopower

Just two example avenues of research that could improve our lives down here.

But, for example, how would you print a million hearts on the ISS? The required infrastructure like such as big space labs is something that starship could enable if we're lucky.

Send up stem cells and get a new stomach within a month, or your money back!™

[Nix]

"Could improve our lives down here."

Promises, promises..... A vague rationalization. And that phrase is loaded with assumptions. It is can be a somewhat dangerous rationale for pursuing individualistic goals. History has demonstrated that millions of people have been killed in an effort to "improve our lives".

Could the push to explore space lead to new tech spin-offs?  Sure. Solar panels are a decent example. (But there was nothing stopping us from developing solar panels independent of space exploitation!)

If we see that there are areas where we need to improve now, why not focus on those issues directly? Why hope that something nice will fall out of space exploitation? Perhaps we could "improve our lives down here" by focusing on that right now, down here.

[Don Pablo]

In the case of printing or growing organs, the case isn't closed, but the evidence points to needing to do it in microgravity so they don't come out wonky. We might figure out how to do it on Earth, but that would be one of those vague promises you don't like.

There are almost 8 billion people in the world, we could focus on millions of things simultaneously if we really wanted.
It's not fair to simply curb the things that smart people are currently trying because of what the technical evidence is pointing to, just because it "doesn't seem right".

[Chako]

Wow. Before all these Billionaires decided to get into a pissing contest, space was the sole purview of Governments. I think it is a good thing that we are reaching for the stars, and that these billionaires are having that pissing contest. Eventually, it will get cheaper, and who knows if we start colonizing other planets down the road. If we do not take care of our planet, we might be forced to down the road anyhow...and I personally think it is a great idea to expand our horizons. The big thing here is that space will eventually get commercialized. Is that a good think or a bad thing...the jury is out on that one because it is very early in the game. May I remind you all that the space race of the 60's is what drove NASA to even land on the moon...directly competing with the USSR of the time. If it was not for that, we would never have landed anyone on the moon, let alone see advancements that we have seen since then.

[Nix]

It's not fair to simply curb the things that smart people are currently trying because of what the technical evidence is pointing to, just because it "doesn't seem right".

I don't think there is any effort to curb space exploitation. We're on our way. Weeeeeeeeee......

We don't know what the consequences will be--although already the night sky is littered with manmade space debris. I'm just not holding my breath waiting for benefits.

Here I'm betraying my preference for scientific exploration over commercialization: Send up tools of inquiry and knowledge collection. Minimize extra-terrestrial pollution. And don't expect that the challenge of living a fulfilling life on Earth will be made easier by a mining camp on Mars.

[Nix]

May I remind you all that the space race of the 60's is what drove NASA to even land on the moon...directly competing with the USSR of the time. If it was not for that, we would never have landed anyone on the moon, let alone see advancements that we have seen since then.

Man on the moon. So what?

How did putting an astronaut on the moon make a difference in your life?  How does someone climbing Mt Everest make a difference in your life?

I grant you, it is exciting. It is cool. Like a kid doing flips on a skateboard.

There is probably a reason that we didn't go back: there was no point.

I do not think that any "advancements" made since the lunar landing were dependent on the effort to get Neil Armstrong's boot prints made in the lunar dust.

[Aloha]

Its about their goals IMO.  What exactly are their goals?  They are under no obligation to further mankind, granted.  If mankind is furthered then great but its always at an expense.  That said, I see it as wealthy men with massive egos.  If what we read is true about their personalities then its certainly about ego.  Don't get me wrong ego is not altogether a bad thing and no I don't believe everything I read.  I understand one goal is simply space tourism?  At the current cost for the "privilege" I'm not sure how long before its affordable as they say for the masses? Then what?  Colonize Mars?  Why? 

At then sums of money they each have I'd imagine its the next big rush for them all.  Sure there might be some ( I'm struggling to find the right word ) "positive" outcome  . 

The Space Race is well documented between US and USSR.  I wont get into what, when, why, or any of that.   

Call me pessimistic but it seems the wealthiest are now embroiled in make money, boost ego, and who knows what else. 

[Aloha]

Sorry folks. 

[glenfiddich1983]

While launching some people to just over a 100 kilometers above the surface for a few minutes of zero gravity doesn’t sound like an incredible achievement like landing on the moon and building space stations, it does feel like this (private enterprises getting involved with “space business”) might be the beginning of a new age in humanity’s expansion in -and maybe some day beyond- our solar system.

Things are developing so fast now. It was really amazing watching that massive New Shepard booster-rocket fall back to the surface and then safely landing upright on a landing pad… wow. Don’t care about Bezos in his capsule, for me it’s the booster landing that stole the show. Really impressive!

It’s times like these that I wished I was born 200 years later. Who knows where we will be by then.

[Aloha]

While launching some people to just over a 100 kilometers above the surface for a few minutes of zero gravity doesn’t sound like an incredible achievement like landing on the moon and building space stations, it does feel like this (private enterprises getting involved with “space business”) might be the beginning of a new age in humanity’s expansion in -and maybe some day beyond- our solar system.

Things are developing so fast now. It was really amazing watching that massive New Shepard booster-rocket fall back to the surface and then safely landing upright on a landing pad… wow. Don’t care about Bezos in his capsule, for me it’s the booster landing that stole the show. Really impressive!

It’s times like these that I wished I was born 200 years later. Who knows where we will be by then.

 

[Nix]

might be the beginning of a new age in humanity’s expansion in -and maybe some day beyond- our solar system.

We have gone beyond our solar system: Voyager   

It is theoretically possibly that humans will leave the solar system....or be generated outside the solar system....but the challenges in that are enormous, possibly insurmountable from a practical perspective.

I think we might do better taking better care of the current base station, than hoping that we'll be able to establish a happy colony on Teegarden B.

[Aloha]

I should add.  If the furtherance of mankind is one of the goals then further it.  I am often reminded of these words. 

“When I was a young man, I wanted to change the world.

I found it was difficult to change the world, so I tried to change my nation.

When I found I couldn’t change the nation, I began to focus on my town. I couldn’t change the town and as an older man, I tried to change my family.

Now, as an old man, I realize the only thing I can change is myself, and suddenly I realize that if long ago I had changed myself, I could have made an impact on my family. My family and I could have made an impact on our town. Their impact could have changed the nation and I could indeed have changed the world.”

Unknown monk, c. 12th century

Does that mean these men wont influence change?  Did the Space Race influence change?

As I said in my first post, initially I was  then  . 

My partners son was privileged to attend NASA space camp.  We all have trying to keep up with everything.  I was born in the 60s and can remember much of what was going on tho I couldn't understand it all.  Not saying I do now  . 

I try to read as much as I can and found this paper, while admittedly sided, its interesting.  This is but one paper mind you.  Solar panels are great however the early cost were for the most part cost prohibitive for many.  Its taken decades and only seems like a dent has been made in technology and reduction of costs.  Recently I've seen our school district use them.  A few solar farms have spring up.  Here in California with lots of sunshine you'd think every home would have them, NOPE.  Oh and by the way PV cells were not invented by our race to space.  Vastly improved ok and certainly more improvements made over the decades but I cannot say they have improved mankind. 

[Syncop8r]

Many advancements in technology are brought about by war.
I guess the Space Race was part of a war of sorts. 

[ThundahBeagle]

Ford Model T: goes down the road.
Bugatti Chiron: goes down the road.

Like you, Beagle, I'm not impressed by sending a man into space. It is not an accomplishment. I'm not sure it ever was. 50 some years ago we put a man on the moon. What did it accomplish?

Why do wee need a fleet of space shuttles? We don't. And that's why we don't have a fleet of Space Shuttles.


The first "space race" was about ideological ego. The current space tourism rush is about personal ego

The first space race was not about ideological ego in my opinion. It was about "air superiority" between the USA and the USSR. Why do you think China is sending exploration devices into space and to Mars? They even plan a moon exploration. There was a time when holding high ground was the advantage in ground based war. Then seagoing ships held the advantage. At least until the airplane was invented, and it soon was the God of war on land and at sea.

Space was the next level of military superiority. The higher you are, the more you can see. The more you can see, the more you can control. Satellites, GPS. ICBM's controlled or steered from the ground but via satellites in space. GPS didnt come about by accident. It came about as a way to more accurately map the earth and use that map and satellites to reach targets with our land based and submarine based nuclear missiles.

What did the moon landing accomplish? It put the Soviets on notice that we were on higher ground than they were, just as they had done to us with Sputnik prior. Who knows. We may have had to build some sort of satellite relay up there if the arms race had continued.

But you are right about one thing:
If it was worth being there, we would be there. Theres nothing up there of value that is easily enough attainable.  And if it were mined too much, it might throw its orbit off, which would affect our ocean tides. And I dont think anybody wants that.