Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
+-

Hello Lurker! Remove this ad and much more by logging in.


Groove on Corkscrew 504

No Life Club Posts: 2,633
Groove on Corkscrew
« on: March 18, 2019, 04:17:12 PM »
I've always thought the groove in older SAKs with the corkscrew was simply decorative. Until now.   According to Otter Messer, the reason they put the groove, or "core" as they call it on this particular variant of the Mercator is  "The core in the cork screw helix prevents the 'crumbling' of the cork" So, not decorative after all.

https://www.otter-messer.de/shop/Mercator-Knife/Mercator-Multi-10-440rg--490.html
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,038
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2019, 05:21:46 PM »
Learned something new today!

Barry
No Life Club Posts: 4,736
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2019, 05:57:56 PM »
This might have got lost in translation.
What Otter meant to express ist that the space inbetween the windings - not the space from winding to winding, but in the middle of teh corkscrew - is there to prevent crumbling.
In german it´s called "Seele", soul in english. Something that is not there but serves a purpose.
On older and cheaper knives you often see a corkscrew that looks like a screw with a coarse thread or a big wood drill bit. Those do not have a core or soul. As they displace more room, they sometimes make the cork crumble.
I hope I did explain that well enough in school learned english...
Sr. Member Posts: 282
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2019, 07:45:27 PM »
I can't see the corkscrew fluting as being anything more than decorative. Cork is too coarse in texture for it to make a difference. Also, the depth of the fluting varies so much: sometimes barely there, other times so deep and sharp that it digs into the thumb and back of the hand. I have a couple of Campers with CSs with this kind of groove and I don't enjoy using them for this reason.

Missing my dear friend Don Federico Cortés, His Lordship, the Boss.
Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,205
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2019, 07:58:35 PM »
This might have got lost in translation.
What Otter meant to express ist that the space inbetween the windings - not the space from winding to winding, but in the middle of teh corkscrew - is there to prevent crumbling.
In german it´s called "Seele", soul in english. Something that is not there but serves a purpose.
On older and cheaper knives you often see a corkscrew that looks like a screw with a coarse thread or a big wood drill bit. Those do not have a core or soul. As they displace more room, they sometimes make the cork crumble.
I hope I did explain that well enough in school learned english...

I think you explained it very well   :tu:   thanks !
No Life Club Posts: 1,565
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 02:31:26 AM »
Any possibility that the flouting was meant to serve as some sort of fuller or grooves of a santoku knife? Provideing some tiny bit of air flow to allow easier extraction without damaging the cork

They may have found, as time went by, that the little bit of added benefit was not worth the cost.

Does this type of flouting exist on any vintage or antique dedicated cork screws and wine openers with which we could verify?

If only we had a member here who might have an opportunity to observe a great many antiques who may have had a number of hundred year old cor screws pass through their hands...

.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,783 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 04:51:03 AM »
I suspect the flute was nothing more than a residual line after it was swaged from a stamped plate to a rounded section. No function. No decoration. Just a residual feature of the process.



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 4,243 Apparently it is possible to have too many tools;)
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2019, 11:37:01 AM »
I suspect the flute was nothing more than a residual line after it was swaged from a stamped plate to a rounded section. No function. No decoration. Just a residual feature of the process.

IIRC Vic found that making decent corkscrews economically was quite difficult, and they ended up buying corkscrews from elsewhere, but there seems to be some confusion over the identity of that source.  Maybe it was both (at different times) ?

France
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=43954.0

Japan
https://me.askmen.com/5-things-men-should-know/1034311/article/the-swiss-army-knife-5-things-men-should-know

babola: "Enjoy your tools and don't be afraid to air your opinion and feelings here, but do it in courteous and respectable way toward others, of course."
Hero Member Posts: 858
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 09:59:26 PM »
All the better corkscrews have that line. It gives extra grip, reducing the chances of the cork screw getting pulled through the cork and creating a great crumbling mess.
https://www.johnlewis.com/le-creuset-wine-accessories-waiter%27s-friend-bottle-opener-wood/p231329768?sku=231329768&s_kwcid=2dx92700040042509457&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImceU3IuP4QIVAZztCh35lQ_sEAQYByABEgILuPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,038
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 02:35:55 AM »
That makes sense to me.  I honestly thought it was machine marks.

Barry
No Life Club Posts: 1,048
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 06:40:05 AM »
All the better corkscrews have that line. It gives extra grip, reducing the chances of the cork screw getting pulled through the cork and creating a great crumbling mess.
https://www.johnlewis.com/le-creuset-wine-accessories-waiter%27s-friend-bottle-opener-wood/p231329768?sku=231329768&s_kwcid=2dx92700040042509457&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImceU3IuP4QIVAZztCh35lQ_sEAQYByABEgILuPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I dunno... :think:

I think lowtech is correct that a "helical" corkscrew design is less likely to create a problem with a cork than an "Archimedian" corkscrew design, and that this is what Otter is saying.



With regard to the groove in found in some helical corkscrews, there doesn't seem to be much agreement as to the function(ality), if any:

- Some claim it decreases friction:  https://www.johnlewis.com/le-creuset-wine-accessories-waiter%27s-friend-bottle-opener-wood/p231329768?sku=231329768&s_kwcid=2dx92700040042509457&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImceU3IuP4QIVAZztCh35lQ_sEAQYByABEgILuPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds & https://www.lecreuset.com/waiters-friend-wood

- Some claim it increases friction:  http://mixstik.com/how-to-choose-the-best-corkscrew/

- Some say it makes no difference whether the corkscrew is grooved or not:  https://txwinelover.com/2015/06/code38-a-high-end-corkscrew-from-down-under/

- Some say "there might be a small advantage to the grooved version, but it didn't make much of a difference" - https://www.smartknives.com/Swiss-Army-Knife-Tools/Victorinox-Corkscrew-Groove.htm

- Some say it makes a small difference, but only for older corks - https://www.foodandwine.com/wine/do-you-really-need-300-corkscrew-expensive

- Some say it is there to increase strength - http://www.corkscrewcollecting.com/introduction.html

Whew.


Considering the question, though, I believe it can be broken into two questions:
  • What purpose, if any, did cutting a groove in a corkscrew ever serve?
  • Why were grooved corkscrews discontinued on SAKs?

1.  After some consideration, I am of the opinion that a properly cut groove in a corkscrew (especially a corkscrew made of questionable steel and with questionable or no heat treat) might serve to stiffen a corkscrew, in the same way that a fuller stiffens a sword.  (Of course the other functions of a fuller in a sword, i.e. weight reduction and balance adjustment, are not really applicable to a corkscrew, but stiffness is.)

2.  Using modern steel with modern heat treat, however, resulted in corkscrews that were plenty stiff without the groove, and since the groove was an added cost, it was ultimately dropped.  It seems likely that the grooved corkscrews continued to be used long after any actual benefit had disappeared due to public opinion (i.e. people believing that quality corkscrews had grooves) and or tradition.  This last bit is probably why, as Sawl Goodman notes, the depth of the fluting can vary considerably; by the time those pieces were manufactured, it had become a purely cosmetic/ornamental feature.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,204
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 06:54:15 AM »
Loving el discourse  :popcorn:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Full Member Posts: 223
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 10:16:50 AM »
1.  After some consideration, I am of the opinion that a properly cut groove in a corkscrew (especially a corkscrew made of questionable steel and with questionable or no heat treat) might serve to stiffen a corkscrew
:iagree:
As for me, it's the only reason to cut groove in a corkscrew (to say nothing about the technological reasons).

2.  Using modern steel with modern heat treat, however, resulted in corkscrews that were plenty stiff without the groove, and since the groove was an added cost, it was ultimately dropped.  It seems likely that the grooved corkscrews continued to be used long after any actual benefit had disappeared due to public opinion (i.e. people believing that quality corkscrews had grooves) and or tradition. 
:iagree:
May be, marketing reasons are very strong now.
Hero Member Posts: 858
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 10:46:02 AM »
''The precision-cut grooves along the worm grips the cork firmly and also reduces the drag as it cuts through the cork, making it less likely the cork will crumble.''
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Waiters-Corkscrew-VINORIA-Bartenders/dp/B01JASG510
No Life Club Posts: 1,214
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 12:52:03 PM »
The problem I find with the theory that it reduces crumbling is, how would anyone ever think of this? It hardly seems like an obvious solution and it must be nearly impossible to actually test unless you pull thousands and thousands of corks. The trouble is only worsened by the unhomogeneous nature of cork.

I'm thinking, would you even look for a solution (especially one like this that I can't imagine will make much difference other than on a statistical level) and not just put any broken corks down to the cork having faults or cracks?

Looking closer at the base of the screw, seems to show traces of two different grooves, one on the outside and one on the inside making me think that the cut groove might be masking signs of the production method. It could easily see a scenario where the groove masks the signs of a superior production method to the point where the groove gets the credit or is generally connected to the better product in the eyes of the users.
Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,205
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 02:11:23 PM »
This thread is really groovy !     :D
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,038
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 02:33:32 PM »
Right on! :D

Barry
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,783 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 02:37:13 PM »
Pressing a blank from plate, and running through a pair of swaging rollers will flute it. Reswaging it with rollers at 90o will close that flute up if the rollers are very precise, but it's additional expense for no benefit other than cosmetic (depending what your aesthetic preferences are).

Cutting a blank from the right diameter barstock, and pressing the tang flat instead, will give a smooth finish without secondary processing.

Manufacturers who only have one process (and why would you do both - that's just two lots of machinery and tooling to do one job) will claim their corkscrews are best. From then it's just marketting BS.

  • A fluted screw displaces less material, and stresses the cork less.
  • A non-fluted has less cross sectional area and less friction.
  • Altering the diameter and cross sectional diameter affects both, rendering both claims moot.
  • I would suggest that the helix angle would affect strength and cork breakage far more than a measly tooling mark.

Oh, and removing material won't stiffen it, and can only increase the stiffness to weight ratio with a cleverly designed profile. Hardly a major factor for a corkscrew.

Much ado about nothing IMHO :salute:



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 1,048
Re: Groove on Corkscrew
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2019, 06:14:49 PM »
Owning only the non-grooved corkscrews myself, I can say that I've never had a problem removing a cork with one yet.  I'm happy to perform further testing on any and all bottles of wine anyone would care to send me.

 :D

 :drink:

 

Donations

Operational Funds

Help us keep the Unworkable working!
Donate with PayPal!
May Goal: $300.00
Due Date: May 31
Total Receipts: $110.00
PayPal Fees: $7.87
Net Balance: $102.13
Below Goal: $197.87
Site Currency: USD
34% 
May Donations

Community Links


Powered by EzPortal
SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.071 seconds with 22 queries.
© 2018 Defender Web & Tool