Bumping an old Spirit non-locking thread

[pingu]

A side issue to my currently non-consummated interest in the Spirit, maybe of interest to UK'ers -

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=18884.25

Perhaps the disappointing outcome is that the expressed hope that Victorinox would wise-up regarding locking blades on Swiss Tools has come to nowt.

[toolguy]

Instead of hoping that Victorinox would make tools specifically for the British buyer,why don't you petition your representatives in your Parliament to do away with those ridiculous laws ?

No good has ever come from a society that has been disarmed and cowed by restrictive laws meant to leave its citizenry helpless and defenseless.

[pingu]

Instead of hoping that Victorinox would make tools specifically for the British buyer,why don't you petition your representatives in your Parliament to do away with those ridiculous laws ?

Yes, he says in a resigned and submissive tone.

Actually its the stupidity of the lawmakers and that they will NEVER admit to.  We can carry, by our standards, some pretty scary looking sub 3" non-locking folders but not the "butter" knife on a Spirit.  Actually the legal statute doesn't prohibit locking, what it did was enable folders.  The locking restriction was an unfortunate legal case which in our system sets a precedent that locking meant non-folding.  More stupidity when what was wanted was that locking Spirit butter knives or sheepsfoot designs generally could be considered non-threatening.   Instead of which we have legal pointy non-locking folders with deep finger choils. 

Sadly that is how our system works and on this there is little to choose between our political parties.

[toolguy]

If I didn't make my point clear,allow me to do so now.Although I didn't spell it out,I was inferring that your lawmakers,who act more like your overlords rather than your representatives,are certainly responsible.That statement also doesn't completely exonerate the electorate,they have to share some responsibility for electing these overlords.

Having made my point more clear let me share this thought.We in America,have been engaging in the same struggle to keep our God given rights to self protection.There has been,for almost a century, a small but vocal cadre of soSmurfpillsts/communists/liberals,progressives/democrats that have been working tirelessly to disarm our citizens.This struggle is universal in its scope.All citizens of the world have a moral imperative to protect themselves and their families.Our overlords believe that we aren't smart enough to be trusted with this responsibility while they have security teams armed with sub-machine guns.This is the level of hypocrisy that we face in or own nation.

I wish and pray for your best outcome while I hope you will do the same for the citizens of my country.

By the way,I've listened to Daniel Hannan and he is the voice of all men,who wish to be free of tyrannical governments throughout the world.

This man is a shining example of a few men in your government who truly understands freedom.

[bmot]

This is sounding very political to me... 

[enki_ck]

This is sounding very political to me... 

Agreed.  

And politics is a big no-no here on MTO. It just gets people arguing and getting angry about things they can't actually change.

Let's try to steer this discussion back to the non locking Spirit thread.

I just had a look at the Spirit locking system and I think it may be fairly easy to make the blade non locking. Seeing as the Spirit actually has a backspring system should be advantageous in this to keep the blade open and to operate as a regular slipjoint.

Maybe if the lower cutout on the tang of the blade where the baskspring lock in would be ground down with a dremel, it wouldn't lock anymore.

I'll have to find a picture of the locking system and backspring, we had a few of them taken apart, I think J-sews and Metro.

[enki_ck]

OK, if one were to round this notch up so the locking system wouldn't engage, I think that would make the Spirit blade a non locking one.

Maybe one of our modders who had the Spirit apart could verify. I thin the rounding could be done even without taking the tool apart.

[pingu]

Let's try to steer this discussion back to the non locking Spirit thread.

I just had a look at the Spirit locking system and I think it may be fairly easy to make the blade non locking. Seeing as the Spirit actually has a backspring system should be advantageous in this to keep the blade open and to operate as a regular slipjoint.

Maybe if the lower cutout on the tang of the blade where the baskspring lock in would be ground down with a dremel, it wouldn't lock anymore.

I'll have to find a picture of the locking system and backspring, we had a few of them taken apart, I think J-sews and Metro.

I'm familiar with making LM locking bar designs non-locking by filing a ramp on the individual tool back-catch.  But then that is a vertical motion on a pivot. Easy.

The Spirit lock slides in a groove.  I'm not convinced a ramp easily converts to enough horizontal motion unless its very long.  Maybe a long enough slot in the locking bar?  I agree its a semi or weak slip-joint and the tool shouldn't flop around like it would if it was a Gerber.

Unfortunately and stupidly I boxed up my Spirit without making notes.  Anyway its a riveted tool so that's beyond my skill level.

I'm intrigued how this could be done but first I have to source a non-misaligned handle example.

[pingu]

OK, if one were to round this notch up so the locking system wouldn't engage, I think that would make the Spirit blade a non locking one.

(Image removed from quote.)

Seen the pic on my travels, thanks for posting it here.

I think "rounding the notch up" requires material to be removed from the entire rear of the tang.  Quite a bit.

My last foray into a similar lock was a Gerber Evo a few years ago.  There the locking bar moved quite a distance over a flat portion of the tang preventing rotation.  At the time I couldn't see the answer.  I removed the bar and the tools flopped around.

I think the best solution for the Spirit is a slot in the locking bar.  Thoughts anybody?  And is it possible without dismantling?

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks for getting this back on track Enki  Earlier comments weren't helpful or appropriate

Seen the pic on my travels, thanks for posting it here.

I think "rounding the notch up" requires material to be removed from the entire rear of the tang.  Quite a bit.

My last foray into a similar lock was a Gerber Evo a few years ago.  There the locking bar moved quite a distance over a flat portion of the tang preventing rotation.  At the time I couldn't see the answer.  I removed the bar and the tools flopped around.

I think the best solution for the Spirit is a slot in the locking bar.  Thoughts anybody?  And is it possible without dismantling?

A slot in the locking bar would make more sense than rounding off the tang. Due to the action of rotation, the locking bar wouldn't be pushed back by a radius. That method only works on tools which "latch" such as the Wave/Charge screwdrivers. The only other way to do it would be to infill the area on the tang where the locking bar would engage - TIG welding maybe? Though it's doubtful that this could be done with the tool assembled.

My own personal approach is to carry the Spirit when I deem it appropriate, and carry something like the Balance or something knifeless at other times I really like carrying/using the Spirit, but would rather be selective about it's use than mod it, as I know my modding skills aren't going to leave the tool in a good enough condition to not feel I've ruined it. Each to their own though 

[Syph007]

There are a few ways to make the blades non locking and I know I can do this without even taking it apart.

The last time I brought this up some people felt it wouldn't matter that the blade was modified to not lock, since it was still a locking tool.  So I dont know what the heck is right and wrong as it seems the entire law is open to interpretation.

The question to answer is simple though.  If I have a lock blade MT, but modify it so that it is 'irreversibly' (i think irreversible is important since they could argue you could change it back at will while carrying) charged to non locking.  Is that considered legal for UK carry?  IF yes, then I can definitely come up with a solution.

[pingu]

The last time I brought this up some people felt it wouldn't matter that the blade was modified to not lock, since it was still a locking tool. 

I've snipped most of the post just to concentrate on the above.

My understanding is as follows.  Blades (of any length) are not legal carry without good reason and wanting to carry a MT for the heck of it is not "good reason".  However no "good reason" is required to carry a folding "pocket knife" with a blade cutting edge length of 3" or less.   The law does not state it must be non-locking but...  a precedent set in a court case found that locking meant fixed i.e. non-folding.

So far far so easy.  The law says "folding pocket knife" not folding blade contained in a MT.  The law rambles on about "offensive weapons" and gives weapon examples.  I think it says that a sharpened or maybe even non-sharpened screwdriver - used as a weapon - is an offensive weapon.   I am not convinced that an awl, not deployed in an offensive manner, is a "offensive weapon" just because it is as sharp as the sharpened screwdriver.   In respect of the awl, locking or non-locking has no legal relevance (AFAIUI).   I'm personally happy to take a chance on that basis. It would require a court case and without embarking on trivial cases the authorities are not keeping on top of their workload.

So in summary, I am comfortable carying a MT with a "irreversably" non-locking folding blade of 3" or less.  For example my Juice S2 and Kick are intrinsically non-locking, my Fuse and Rebar have non-locking blades.  (Don't ask what happens if I jam something temporarily under the lock.  Well you know ).  Should I choose I could make my Fuse and Rebar bladeless.  I might if I ever get a diamond file, but that's another matter.

So I'm interested in how to approach making the Spirit blade only "irreversibly" non-locking.  And I haven't totally ruled out making a Spirit bladeless.




   

 

[Syph007]

Gotcha.  If I was in the UK I would personally be fine with carrying a modified spirit so the blade was non locking as well.  I have a spirit that has a pivot with screws replacing a rivet so its easy for me to take it apart to inspect and think about.  My thinking is modifying the part of the lock bar where it engages the blade notch.  I would grind it from a 90 sharp corner to a smooth slope.  The blade catch would fail to engage and the blade would close smoothly. 

Now I remember thinking I could do this while assembled, but maybe that's being optimistic.  Even if it has to come apart though, getting 4mm pin stock to rivet back together is no problem.

When I get a chance I will take my spirit apart again, and do some high res photos of the mechanism for discussion.   

[AimlessWanderer]

There are a few ways to make the blades non locking and I know I can do this without even taking it apart.

The last time I brought this up some people felt it wouldn't matter that the blade was modified to not lock, since it was still a locking tool.  So I dont know what the heck is right and wrong as it seems the entire law is open to interpretation.

The question to answer is simple though.  If I have a lock blade MT, but modify it so that it is 'irreversibly' (i think irreversible is important since they could argue you could change it back at will while carrying) charged to non locking.  Is that considered legal for UK carry?  IF yes, then I can definitely come up with a solution.

You're quite right Robert, there is an element of interpretation to it all. For the most part, making the knife blade non-locking would satisfy the boys in blue - particularly if the user had gone out of their way to have a mod done to make it legal - though in theory they could still angle that the awl or saw is locking should they have a troublesome scroat they are trying to deal with, and it would be a court issue to argue out whether it's being carried as a weapon or not. For the majority of law abiding citizens though, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't go to that trouble.

I do however think there's a bit too much made of all this for the purposes of online discussions all around the web. There are fully legal choices to be had, and other tools can be carried when circumstances "permit", but even carrying something like a Vic Classic would be a no no in certain sensitive areas. However I have now had four decades on this rock, and only once has an officer of the law questioned me about a knife, or even seen that I have a bladed item on me. That guy was actually a customer of mine who is a "special" (voluntary officer), and was just trying to have a bit of fun with me as I was in a circumstance where I could have had a locking blade on me anyway (I had the wings slipit at the time). I think he was quite surprised how much knowledge I had on the matter 

I have had locking blades in my pocket when I didn't really need them, and I don't always religiously remove tools with locking blades from my pocket and lock them up in the boot of glove box as is prescribed. I do however carry and use tools with discretion so as now to cause alarm or draw attention to myself. Common sense will gain far more milage than difficult tool modifications. If you are found with a fully legal UK legal knife in your pocket at a football match, expect questions at the very least. Being found on your way to work with a Wave in your backpack will likely be received with less suspicion, and I've recently got back from a long drive with a car full of multitools, axes, parangs, machetes, fixed blade knives ......

Wisdom, discretion, civility and courtesy will appease far more than carrying a tool that's theoretically legal and then loudly and vehemently arguing about it's legality till you're blue in the face 

/rant (not aimed at anyone specific BTW )

But back on the topic of making the Spirit "safe"  another option would be to completely blunt/round off the blade to make it a non-cutting "palatte knife" or "butter knife" if another "UK legal" knife is being carried for cutting tasks