Where is the line between preparedness and insanity?

[ducttapetech]

I was gonna write that all in the 3rd person, but part way through I said smurf it.
;D

[Steinar]

I like the idea of crank flashlights, but I think battery technology is both too good and too bad for them. Too good because lithium batteries have long shelf lives and excellent capacity. Too bad because there is only a limited number of life cycles for that battery in the "battery less" crank flashlight. Combine that with having wear yourself out for a (in comparison to that Lithium powered one) dim light...

"We need light! Just give me a minute with the crank!"

[Millhouse]

I agree with you on the crank flashlight. My car kit has 2 lights, both with lithium batteries. In an emergency situation, you may need light quickly, and you may need it bright. Also if you are injured, cranking may not be possible.

[ironraven]

Like anything, when it unbalances your life, it's a problem.

Step back, ask yourself "do I want to be the guy that is known for XYZ", and adjust your plans.

[Aloha]

The line is blurred it seems but for me I see the insanity of it all when it's all someone does.  It has taken over their lives and has become what they do and they are defined by it. 

Its all well and good these people have planned to stay put as I also don't feel most will head out to the woods and have a go at primitive living.  Theres no real BUGGING OUT there's evacuation and to where? Or theres the more realistic BUGGIN IN and like the thread I started, HOW LONG WOULD YOU SURVIVE?   

When I spoke about fitness I'm not talking in extremes.  I honestly asking can the average joe/jane walk 10/15/20 miles to and evacuation site?  Now add all the BOBS and BAGS on their backs and crying kids to the mix.  If you have a pet that doesn't walk on a leash then add that in as well.


The fixed blade "issue" is mute IMO as we carry what we like.

I had wild fires hit my area and I saw some massive evacuations happening with very I'll prepared people.  We all saw Katrina and those that stayed out of necessity and those that evacuated and how each worked out. 

Here's my plan,

Earthquake- no damage to my house meaning gas or other issues.  I may or may not have services.

Fire- My area is prone to wild fires and in this case we either get voluntary evacuation or mandatory.
 
I was voluntary last time and I chose to stay my former sis in law was mandatory as well as many friends.

I honestly am not thinking about civil issues where the "rule of law" is obliterated.

We have seen LA taken over for weeks ( riots ) and if the "bad guy" is hell bent on taking your stuff well he's going to.  I don't see a sole family holding off a mob over the course of days.

I dont see holding off ninjas, rogue operators, assassins, zombies or anyone else looking to harm you specifically for any lengthy amount of time alone.  You would need a small army among other things.
 

I live in a very large city and what my preparedness is about a few things.

1. Staying put unless I am forced to go.

2. Evacuation to a family members home or friends home.

3. Evacuation to a site.

4. Evacuation to a neighboring city.

My goal for 1. is to be able to self sustain for 3 months.  I want to be able to cook, wash, and most difficult to relive ourselves in a sanitary way.  Waste is what's gonna be hard in a city landscape, where do you put it?  I guess I could go to the park and dig holes?

2., 3., 4., are to have some comforts and be somewhat self self reliant and not to much burden those I am housing with.  I'd bring my supplies and resources so we as a family could better cope.

Now imagine road closures, my nearest relative is 40 miles away.  I can make the trek on foot but certainly not with the amount of supplies for my family to lesson the burden of my hosts.  This is my situation yours is different so if you don't need to walk then great.  I'd bike BTW mine is being set up for this very situation.   

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it and if you take medication or you are a regular drug user ( illegal or not ) you need to be honest with yourself and ask how long could you go?  If you drink to excess then this also needs to be accounted for.   

As an example I have switched to propane for my fuel source so I can continue to cook and heat water.  Propane has a longer shelf life and a few tanks should last but I'm also prepared with food that don't need cooking.

These are just my thoughts and preparations but I  live in a sunny climate so freezing temps or heavy rain is not a concern for me.       



         

[jekostas]

When it takes over your life.

My preparedness kit runs along the lines of a good mickey of rye, a pair of sunglasses and a credit card.  I feel that should prepare me for... most things.

[comis]

Crank flashlight is an inefficient lighting solution, most requires a fair amount of cranking to light up a single or few 5mm or 3mm leds, only good for very close proximity.  Instead, I would suggest the idea of solar panels if you are driving or just at home, with a few hours of charging, it will at least charge up cell phone or any AAA or AA batteries.

@ Lynn, while some skills from Bushcraft are helpful in being prepared, but make no mistake, I do not view them as one and the same. I do bushcraft for fun. I can start fire from flint and steel, make cord from inner tree bark, but again, I do it for fun. Being prepared is for just in case. And my kits are vastly different. Why make cord when I can use paracord or twine. I can use my ferro rod or a lighter to make a fire. Also, my post ealier was about the point of fixed blades. But I do hunt. Part of it is for fun. The other part does help feed my family. Deer is cheap, healthy and taste good. However, my 3 day pack, has food in it. I know from experience, hunting is not easy as walk in the woods, see deer, shoot deer, drag deer home.

Nate, I see your point and I too do like bushcraft(or just plain old camping for the old timers).  Often times it is easy to get confused why anyone would still want to learn friction fire or make shelter, when you have lighter or a tent.  To me, it's the same as asking why climb mountains when you have step machine/treadmill in the gym.

There is major difference between a bushcraft kit vs a survival kit, and of all people, I would think most experienced bushcrafters/outdoor enthusiasts would know that difference and be well prepared for a real 'survival' situation.  Will those bushcraft skills be able to prolong lifespan and up the chances for being rescue?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it will be delusional to think those skills could replace many essential gears in a good survival kit. 

Personally, I only wish I am at a more convenient location, so I could learn and practice more bushcraft skills.

[nate j]

Borrowing heavily from the DSM IV, it crosses the line into insanity when "avoidance, anxious anticipation, or distress...[of]...the feared situation(s) interferes significantly with the person's normal routine, occupational (or academic) functioning, or social activities or relationships."

I also believe it helps to think about scenarios in terms of likely vs. (not likely but) possible vs. not realistically expected to occur.  I then try to think about my needs in the scenarios I judge likely or possible, often guided by the rule of threes, and to consider what is truly practical for me.  Some examples:

Primary residence loses electrical power for several days - I rate this scenario as likely, given that it has happened to me at least twice in my life thus far.  Accordingly, I try to be prepared with flashlights, batteries, blankets, coats, water, and non-perishable food that doesn't need to be cooked.

Primary residence catches on fire - I rate this possible, and am prepared with working smoke detectors, an exit plan, and insurance.

Due to inclement weather, poor planning, accident, or mechanical failure, I have to spend anywhere from one night to a couple of days in my car. - I consider this possible, and am prepared with blankets, heavy clothing, water, and some food.

Go on a day hike, and due to injury or miscalculation, must spend the night in the woods - If one goes on day hikes, this would at least be possible, if not likely, and should be planned for accordingly.  If one never goes hiking, then probably not realistically expected to occur.

I need to extricate myself (or someone else) from an automobile wreck (yes, I'm aware non-professionals should not attempt this unless there is imminent danger, e.g. the wreck is on fire) - I rate this scenario as possible.  I am generally prepared to break out a window and or cut a seat belt, but it wouldn't be practical for me to carry a Jaws of Life.

Hostile parties enter or attempt to enter my home, or pose a credible threat of serious bodily harm elsewhere - I consider this possible, and am generally prepared to call law enforcement to my aid, as well as being armed and prepared to defend myself.  However, I'm realistic enough to know that any potentially violent encounter has the potential to end badly, and that anyone who has visions of himself successfully taking on the manpower and firepower equivalent of a police SWAT team or infantry squad single-handed has been watching too many action films.

The United States is invaded by a hostile foreign power, A.K.A the Red Dawn scenario - Given the state of things here in 2014, I'm comfortable rating this as not realistically expected to occur.  Living in a different country, or in the US at some other point in our history, I might rate it possible or even likely.

The world is attacked by hostile extraterrestrials, A.K.A. the Independence Day scenario - Not realistically expected to occur.

The world is laid waste by a pandemic, or plunged into nuclear winter, or some other event leads to TEOTWAWKI (zombies optional), A.K.A. the Mad Max scenario, A.K.A. the Walking Dead scenario, A.K.A. the Book of Eli scenario, A.K.A. ... - Not realistically expected to occur, and would be extremely difficult to plan adequately for anyway.

While some scenarios are unique, common patterns of needs begin to emerge in many of these likely or possible scenarios: 

• We know that, at least in some environments, we cannot survive three hours without shelter.  Hypothermia can be a real threat, so adequate clothing and blankets become a priority, and perhaps a tarp or tent.
• We know we can survive about three days (or less) without water, so this is a priority.
• Food certainly lifts our spirits, but the reality is a normally healthy person can go at least a couple of weeks without food, so it needs to be prioritized below shelter & water.
• Being able to make a fire has the potential to help us with all of the above, i.e. keeping warm, sanitizing water, melting snow or ice for water, cooking food
• A knife and a few tools, or at least a MT or two, can be helpful with all of the above tasks.
• Having some protection against two-legged and or four-legged predators is probably wise, though nothing is a panacea for personal defense.

With regard to the utility of fixed blades vs. folders, that could be a thread unto itself.  A folder that is as strong and rugged as a proper fixed blade simply doesn't and can't exist (some manufacturers' claims to the contrary notwithstanding), and fixed blades also have a clear advantage in ease of cleaning up after a messy job.  That said, while I consider a heavy duty MT a must for a 72-hour kit, I consider a fixed blade optional.

[Lynn LeFey]

Nate, you touched on it a bit in your post, in describing events in terms of probability to occurr, but I thought I would add that some prepper folks also prepare for low likelihood but high stakes situations. For instance, the odds of being threatened with violence is low, but the cost, should it happen is high, so they prepare for it. Being caught in nuclear fallout is low, but the resulting radiation exposure is extremely dangerous, and therefore they prepare for it. Same with biological/chemical attack. etc., etc.

This mostly isn't my method, but I get the point of it. I'd add that cost comes into play. For instance, I find the odds of needing a filter mask pretty low, but I carry two anyway, because they're inexpensive, weigh very little, take up virtually no space, and could be used for other filtering tasks. The odds of me needing to start a fire are low, but I have means to make it. Again, inexpensive, and doesn't take up much space.

In truth, on a day-to-day basis, the odds of me needing a philips screwdriver are actually pretty low. Outside my home, I might need one once a year. I still like to have one on me, though.

[Aloha]

@Nate

Great post and well said.  It's thru these type discussions that we all grow and learn.  Good idea for a thread Lynn.

[David]

Good post Nate!

[sir_mike]

Good read Nate!
 
I do think a MT is a necessity and will allow for most bases to be covered but I also think a fixed blade could be a necessity too given one location, activities, etc. like your day hiking example if something were to happen it could help immensely with shelter, fending off animals if at night or whatever.  I live in the city, well just outside but still have a fixed blade as it can do things that folders are not good at!  That said, I dont think you need a 400 dollar custom one as a $15 Mora will more than handle most things!  As Lynn said "inexpensive and not much weight/space".

I do think these concepts are very dependent on location where you live and also I have seen the Prepper show before and do feel quite a bit of that is overkill but to each there own!! 

[nate j]

Thanks all   

Nate, you touched on it a bit in your post, in describing events in terms of probability to occurr, but I thought I would add that some prepper folks also prepare for low likelihood but high stakes situations. For instance, the odds of being threatened with violence is low, but the cost, should it happen is high, so they prepare for it. Being caught in nuclear fallout is low, but the resulting radiation exposure is extremely dangerous, and therefore they prepare for it. Same with biological/chemical attack. etc., etc.

This mostly isn't my method, but I get the point of it. I'd add that cost comes into play. For instance, I find the odds of needing a filter mask pretty low, but I carry two anyway, because they're inexpensive, weigh very little, take up virtually no space, and could be used for other filtering tasks. The odds of me needing to start a fire are low, but I have means to make it. Again, inexpensive, and doesn't take up much space.

In truth, on a day-to-day basis, the odds of me needing a philips screwdriver are actually pretty low. Outside my home, I might need one once a year. I still like to have one on me, though.

Good point about cost factoring in, not only dollars but also weight and bulk.  This is more or less what I meant by "practical" vs. "not practical" to have or to carry.

Normally, when the subject of preparedness comes up, I'm not thinking about being prepared to avoid inconvenience (though of course I would like to avoid that too).  I'm thinking more about preparing for scenarios in which untimely death is a potential outcome, and whether one is killed in a car accident, dehydration, fire, mugging, hypothermia, or NBC attack, one is equally dead, so I would argue the stakes are generally the same (i.e. life) in most relevant scenarios.

Thus, we are left with likelihood as the primary differentiation between scenarios we're going to prepare for and scenarios we aren't going to prepare for.  You rate the probability of a threat of violence as low, and the probability of nuclear fallout as also low.  I think we can probably agree that while both may be unlikely, the chances of having to deal with nuclear fallout are orders of magnitude less than the chances of having to deal with the threat of violence.  According to my system, then, I'll rate the threat of violence as "possible", but nuclear fallout as "not realistically expected to occur", so I'll prepare for the former but not worry about the latter.

[Lynn LeFey]

I think we can probably agree that while both may be unlikely, the chances of having to deal with nuclear fallout are orders of magnitude less than the chances of having to deal with the threat of violence.

Absolutely, and I'm the same. I have had people threaten me with physical violence. 2 attempted muggings.

So far, zero nuclear holocausts. 

I mean, maybe it's not a laughing matter, but I don't stay up nights worrying about nukes. As a city dweller, being mugged or worse is just a reality. Low likelihood, but certainly possible.

I was thinking about some of the more clinical definitions of sanity given, and started to wonder about things like 'functioning alcoholics'. You can still be functional in society, AND be insane. I understand 'insane' isn't a clinical term, but I think most folks will get my meaning. I wonder if there's any Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in some of the prepper stuff. I have a Myers Briggs personality type of INTJ, which generally make good problem solvers and predictors. I could see how I could take contingency planning to absurd levels if I were more obsessive.

[David]

I've a confession to make as I may have crossed that line. There is one thing I have stocked up on more than any thing else. I have a good stock of hot sauce just in case things go pear shaped.   

[Higgins617]

I think we can probably agree that while both may be unlikely, the chances of having to deal with nuclear fallout are orders of magnitude less than the chances of having to deal with the threat of violence.

Absolutely, and I'm the same. I have had people threaten me with physical violence. 2 attempted muggings.

So far, zero nuclear holocausts. 

I mean, maybe it's not a laughing matter, but I don't stay up nights worrying about nukes. As a city dweller, being mugged or worse is just a reality. Low likelihood, but certainly possible.

I was thinking about some of the more clinical definitions of sanity given, and started to wonder about things like 'functioning alcoholics'. You can still be functional in society, AND be insane. I understand 'insane' isn't a clinical term, but I think most folks will get my meaning. I wonder if there's any Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in some of the prepper stuff. I have a Myers Briggs personality type of INTJ, which generally make good problem solvers and predictors. I could see how I could take contingency planning to absurd levels if I were more obsessive.

I'm sorry if it's a touchy subject, but attempted muggings? Does that mean Lynn broke out the ninja skills to foil yet another evil plot?

[Lynn LeFey]

I'm sorry if it's a touchy subject, but attempted muggings? Does that mean Lynn broke out the ninja skills to foil yet another evil plot?

Ahahahaaaaa!! No.

The first time was in Pittsburgh. I was an art student, and honestly a 'starving artist'. Some guy on a bus told me 'Give me all your money'. I laughed in his face. 'I don't have any money'.

The second time was some crackhead. I think he was armed with a stick or something. Same thing. "Give me all your money". Only, I was in a bad mood that day and told him I was about to take that stick and shove it up his @$$. I guess that was enough to dissuade him. He took off looking for someone less hostile.

[Higgins617]

I almost just spit out my iced coffee! That's great!

[Aloha]

That's awesome Lynn tho the second smurf could have been whacked out but glad it went your way.  He might have actually thought OH SMURF THIS LADY IS CRAZY  !

[nate j]

I have had people threaten me with physical violence. 2 attempted muggings.

Don't forget at least one dog attack you would have been justified in using force to repel.   

[Lynn LeFey]

Yeah, I've had those dogs charge me repeatedly.

a year and a half ago, I started that thread on CCW, and got pepper spray when i started that thread, thinking it'd be great against dogs. I have since revised my opinion. It stops them... after about half a minute. That's about half a minute too slow, IMO.

I had been told by some folks that there are people who are also not incapacitated by pepper spray, and at the time I had trouble believing it. Now it seems a lot more possible. if you're able to function through pain, then Pepper spray isn't going to stop you. At most, it will decrease your vision.

Still, it seems a good non-lethal option. I say non-lethal, understanding there HAVE been a few oddball cases of people dying from breathing related issues after being pepper sprayed. So... less than lethal... or whatever they call it.

[babola]

As with most matters, you are not insane as long as you look good doing it..
Some pictures to clarify the above point.

SANE:
(Image removed from quote.)

Sane, you say?  Maybe for launching a full frontal an attack on your local army garrison?   

[comis]

I'm sorry if it's a touchy subject, but attempted muggings? Does that mean Lynn broke out the ninja skills to foil yet another evil plot?

Ahahahaaaaa!! No.

The first time was in Pittsburgh. I was an art student, and honestly a 'starving artist'. Some guy on a bus told me 'Give me all your money'. I laughed in his face. 'I don't have any money'.

The second time was some crackhead. I think he was armed with a stick or something. Same thing. "Give me all your money". Only, I was in a bad mood that day and told him I was about to take that stick and shove it up his @$$. I guess that was enough to dissuade him. He took off looking for someone less hostile.

Mentality rules!


Nate J, enjoyed reading your posts to how best approach this subject without being obsessive. 

[nate j]

Nate J, enjoyed reading your posts to how best approach this subject without being obsessive. 

Thank you.   

I've a confession to make as I may have crossed that line. There is one thing I have stocked up on more than any thing else. I have a good stock of hot sauce just in case things go pear shaped.   

While I'm not sure it would be at the top of my list, hot sauce isn't at all a bad thing to have around for some of these situations.  After all, it makes unappetizing food more palatable (although if your concern during an event is whether your food is seasoned to your taste, you must be surviving the event very well overall), generally has a long shelf life even with an open container and no refrigeration, and (if you've chosen your hot sauce properly) a little can go a long way.

Yeah, I've had those dogs charge me repeatedly.

a year and a half ago, I started that thread on CCW, and got pepper spray when i started that thread, thinking it'd be great against dogs. I have since revised my opinion. It stops them... after about half a minute. That's about half a minute too slow, IMO.

I had been told by some folks that there are people who are also not incapacitated by pepper spray, and at the time I had trouble believing it. Now it seems a lot more possible. if you're able to function through pain, then Pepper spray isn't going to stop you. At most, it will decrease your vision.

Still, it seems a good non-lethal option. I say non-lethal, understanding there HAVE been a few oddball cases of people dying from breathing related issues after being pepper sprayed. So... less than lethal... or whatever they call it.

I like the term "less lethal", as I feel it implies an approach less likely to result in a fatality (vs. "deadly force", which is something reasonably expected to cause death, e.g. shooting), as opposed to "less than lethal" or non-lethal, which imply there is no way use of a given tool could result in a fatality.  (Yes, I have been called anal before.   )