One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...

[AimlessWanderer]

And finally ....  The one that really surprised me.

I only discovered the real star of the show in respect of pliers ergonomics fairly recently, and even so it wasn't until I started putting this comparison together (or at least preparing for it) that I really noticed just how good these pliers really were in comparison to it's competitors in terms of ergonomics. Some of you will not be happy about this though.

It's a Gerber ....

... and it's a Chinese made one at that ....

Ignore all those purile "Chinese garbage" stereotypes though, just put all your prejudices aside for a moment, and take a look why for me the Gerber Diesel is probably "best in class" of all the 4.1/2" framed pliers based multitools when it comes to comfort and control when using the pliers



The longer wire cutters move the main gripping area forward, meaning the pliers don't need to open as wide to grip something the same size, and the handles start from a sensible position too. Added together the Gerber Diesel offers better control and ergonomics not just over it's 4.1/2" competition, but also many tools in the 4" frame size too.

For a direct comparison of the frame size, let's pull back up the photos of the Swisstool and ST300 from the beginning of this thread ...



As you can clearly see there is a massive difference in the control and comfort of these tools. In fact I probably have more purchase on the Diesel handles when gripping a 17.5mm diameter object, than I do on the Swisstool and ST300 when they are in the CLOSED position ...



Obviously this is merely one factor of this particular tool. Some people may absolutely have to have the indexable cutters of the ST300, or the pry capabilities of the Swisstool, or the reach of the screwdrivers of either tool - but when it comes to using your pliers for applying gripping force and your hands not feeling like a tank has run over them by the end of the day, the Diesel here is a big winner. Here is a full framed multitool which actually allows the user to harness the full potential from the tool's pliers.

The hand is working well within the efficiency range, the forces from the hand are applied effectively and efficietly to the handle, the load is spread comfortable everywhere is contacts the hand, it's not pinchy, there's minimal hotspots .... why the bloody hell can't anyone else make tools like this? For the fans of the MP600, this close relative also offers a woodsaw (absent from all other models), and the drivers (albeit no full 3D Phillips) offer a bit better length than the MP600. It kind of leaves me wondering not just why other companies aren't making tools this ergonomic, but why it took me so long to zone in on this tool and realise that a solution to the problem of the "legs akimbo" handle trend was already out there.

To be honest, I only really discovered this gem after the fate of the boat had been sealed, and so I haven't had to use this in the heavier applications that I had to subject other tools to. In all honesty I don't know how durable the teeth on the pliers are. I don't know how durable the wire cutters are ... though there is no hard wire notch provided, so I suspect these might be easily damaged in hard wire cutting, especially considering the acute edge geometry. That said, this is still a tool I am really glad to have bought to try, and one that I hope will serve me for a long time because I know my hands will be subject to far less wear and tear as a result of using them over more expensive alternatives. It might not be the best tool for every job out there, but I have every confidence I will get good service from it

Thanks for bearing with me this long through my rambling. Hope it was worth it 

 

[Crow]

You gave us very good points here. Good reading, thank you.

[SteveC]

Great job !  I'm sure this will be very helpful for people 

Maybe you could have the title of the thread Include "Comparisons of handle spread of various pliers in multi tools" so someone searching for this info could find it easier.

[Monrogue]

I had considered the Diesel way back when I was debating what Gerber MT to get for my second one.  Now you're making me want to get one just to check it out

[Etherealicer]

This is a great overview

[AimlessWanderer]

Excellent series of posts, 50ft-trad.  I concur with several points concerning the ease of using Gerber vs. non-Gerber pliers, but I think the majority of your analysis addresses gripping larger objects.

For me, the Gerber MP400 and MP600 series don't do as well as the competition when gripping small objects.  In that case, I find their handles are too close together.  They are so close together that it's difficult to keep a finger in between, a technique I use to better control the gripping action of smaller objects.  Perhaps spring loading the pliers would help there.

While most people sing the praises of the Leatherman Wave, the sharp top edges of the handles and tools chafe my palms when using the pliers.  Plus, the knife spine can pinch my palm sometimes when using the pliers.   I had the same chafing problem with the Surge (and it was just too big and heavy).

The Skeletool pliers has drawbacks, too.  The asymmetric handles restrict you to holding them in only one position instead of two, and the curvature of the bottom handle forces my hand to slide towards the plier head.

I had a bad pinching experience with the original Gerber Multi Pliers several years ago.  That led to using a long succession of Leatherman multitools with a few Victorinox and Shrades thrown in.  More recently, I've acquired current versions of the Gerber MP400, MP600, and MP800 and have been pleasantly surprised in many respects.

My most comfortable multitool pliers at the moment are the Crescent ToolZall (aka/Bear Jaws), Super Bear Jaws, and Victorinox Spirit.   The Gerber M600 blunt nose seems pretty good, too, but I've not had sufficient experience with it yet.

Just revisiting this post again, as I didn't pay it full attention before ...

The Skeletool is actually a tool which doesn't suffer from the handle splay as found on so many other Leatherman models. For me it is a tool which suffers a host of other problems instead. The concave handle is quite slim and there is very little spread of load across the fingers, which means the gripping force is focussed in a small area. I also find that my fingers end up uncomfortably scrunched together and instead of force being transmitted to the handle, most of it just coes into contorting your hand. The spiky lump on the convex side doesn't help matters either. It's a fantastic example of how NOT to design plier handles in my opinion.

You are right, the Ye Olde Mr Pinchy was another great example of "what not to do". I think the tool I sold to Gareth was in my posession for less than 15 minutes before I decided I had to get rid of it. What a nasty bitey vindictive piece of equipment. As soon as I picked it up it bit me, and then once I'd looked at the tools inside and closed it up, it bit me again ... and didn't stop biting me until I put the bloody thing down  Evil!

The original Bear Jaws tool I had was very good for comfort, but I ended up letting those go in favour of a more refined toolset. Whilst the handles were very comfortable, I just felt the tools were just a little too agricultural. They did the job, but it wasn't everyday user material when thre were so many other options that weren't as clunky.

As to sprung pliers, the Strata might be worth a try for you if you don't use your pliers too hard, but please do note my comments on the hollow plier head. I know Tom (Jerseydevil) is a big fan of the Strata and I believe it's one of his primary multitools. When he gets back he'll be able to give you a better insight than I can (the standard Strata is also very slightly different to the BG variant)

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks guys  I really appreciate the comments 

[AimlessWanderer]

I do not own one to check with,  but the OHT might be closer to the gerber when it comes to handle seperation.  (since they basically used Gerber's design concepts)

I checked, you are right about that

Any chance you could offer up any comparison pics with one of the other tools that I have shown? Obviously your hands will be different to mine, but if there's a "like for like" shot with one of the tools I've covered, we should get a good enough idea of how it compares 

[AimlessWanderer]

This is an amazingly well thought out post, and I tend to agree with you.

SOG also is able to be used in the closed position,  with the handles and head pointed the same way, but I feel the same way about it in that configuration- the handles just open too wide to be of much use.

Def

Sent from my smurfing hunk of techno sorcery

Thanks Grant 

I agree on the "head inwards" configuration too. In fact that way, you might be able to get a bit of gripping force, but no leverage to turn/pull/twist or do anything with it.

Considering how bad the ergonomics are on the "Power" range of tools (particularly those with exposed "gears of madness", it's quite surprising how good the ergonomics were on some of their other tools. The Toolclip looks like it should be a bloody horrible tool to use, but is surprisingly comfortable and robust too. As for the Switchplier, that has got to be the best multitool EVER when used as a screwdriver. Mine has the bit adaptor (as you know  ) and I don't think there's another multitool that I have owned that has come anywhere close to being as comfortable in "driver mode". It's just a humongous shame that the pliers are so flawed in their strength/integrity due to that pathetic little cast noggin taking all the load

[AimlessWanderer]

I can better appreciate the shape of the Spirit/Swisstool (and normal pliers) now - to prevent hands slipping towards the plier heads. Spring loaded pliers would also help solve this.
I find the Skeletool usable both ways around but a spring would improve it a lot IMO.

Are you going to compare with a Wave? I imagine it would be similar to the Surge which I find very comfortable.

As I mentioned earlier (reply #35) I just can't get on with the Skele at all. To me it needs the same corrective maintenance that Harley gave the Camillus/Less Proud tool    But if other folks find it suits their hand, then that's all well and good 

I'll dig out my Wave and see just how dismantled it is at the minute  I started looking at doing some more tweakification to it not long back, but I can't remember what state I left it in. From fairly recent memory, the grip is better than the Charge AL as it is slightly slimmer, but also not as angular.

I do know from meeting up with the UK guys, that the Surge was in the realms of the ST300 for me, and could never be as efficient for me as the Wave. Trying to use it was a bit like wearing boots three sizes too big  It did the job, but so many other tools would do the same thing a heck of a lot better

[AimlessWanderer]

Adjustable arc joint and slip joint pliers overcome the problem of having the handles too close or too far apart when gripping an item.  That's why I often carry a Knipex Cobra pliers.

Incorporating that into a reasonably sized multitool which also has a wire cutter would be interesting.

... and I'll dig out the Wichard tool too ... This has slipjoint, chrome plated, forged pliers ... and I'm pretty sure it has a small wire cutting area too. Unfortunately it's a bit limited with other tools. A flat driver/pry thing on the end of the plier handle, a semi serrated blade, and a can opener/caplifter

[AimlessWanderer]

This is my main complaint about the Wingman.  The plier handles are wider open than the Wave's by a significant margin so the tool feels too big in the hands during use.  That coupled with the spring action and the smooth steel grips means the tool slides backward in your hands during use.  None of my other Leathermans seem to suffer that problem.

I must express a dissenting opinion regarding small tools, though.  Compare a Squirt to a Dime.  The Squirt is a better tool by far.  The pliers are much grippier, the wire cutters work, the blade holds an edge, and the bottle opener isn't anywhere near as obnoxious.  Only thing I liked about the Dime better was the paint.  The Squirt's anodized coating feels much easier to scratch off.  They're about equal in scissors; I don't really like the leaf spring design.  Maybe if it worked more like a Wingman in that spring tension is removed when the tool is closed, but meh.

I agree 100% with your comments on the Wingman. It's almost like they went out of their way to make that tool unwieldy. Assymetrical, heavily splayed, and uncomfortable pokey bits too.

Squirt vs Dime? Well, I agree the pliers are significantly better on the Squirt. For a start they don't have the weakness of the hollow head (like the MP700 and Strata mentioned earlier, but also the backsprings are much better supported. As regards the rest of the tool though, I personally prefer the Dime and consider it to be overall a better pocket tool (again ... for me).

Opinions generally seem to be split about 60/40 in favour of the Squirt I believe, but as this thread (hopefully) highlights, we don't all rate tools on the same sliding scale. I also still don't think it stands out as prominantly from the competition as the ST300, Surge or MUT do

[Zed]

Its funny as the only leathermans that hurt my hands are the ST/ST300 and the pst/pst2 and pulse,ive never felt that my old wave is that uncomfortable in plier position,oddly prefer it to the charge,i did find the mp800 comfortable if not a tad too chunky,

[AimlessWanderer]

Its funny as the only leathermans that hurt my hands are the ST/ST300 and the pst/pst2 and pulse,ive never felt that my old wave is that uncomfortable in plier position,oddly prefer it to the charge,i did find the mp800 comfortable if not a tad too chunky,

It's been ages since I've had a go with an old style Wave. Do the handles sit differently to the new style?

[AimlessWanderer]

Great job !  I'm sure this will be very helpful for people 

Maybe you could have the title of the thread Include "Comparisons of handle spread of various pliers in multi tools" so someone searching for this info could find it easier.

I'm not sure how big a title can be  Maybe the mods will suggest something if they feel it needs to be easy to search for .....

[gregozedobe]

Adjustable arc joint and slip joint pliers overcome the problem of having the handles too close or too far apart when gripping an item.  That's why I often carry a Knipex Cobra pliers.

Incorporating that into a reasonably sized multitool which also has a wire cutter would be interesting.

... and I'll dig out the Wichard tool too ... This has slipjoint, chrome plated, forged pliers ... and I'm pretty sure it has a small wire cutting area too. Unfortunately it's a bit limited with other tools. A flat driver/pry thing on the end of the plier handle, a semi serrated blade, and a can opener/caplifter

Schrade also used to make an MT with slipjoint pliers: the Schrade ST5 (and the Craftsman Professional 45471 re-labelled version).  The pliers are reputed to be quite robust due to the laminated and overlapping construction of the jaws.

http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-index.php?page=ST5E+Tough+Tool

[AimlessWanderer]

I had considered the Diesel way back when I was debating what Gerber MT to get for my second one.  Now you're making me want to get one just to check it out

I think I was trying to sway you when you were looking at the Flik (?)  but you wouldn't listen 

[AimlessWanderer]

Adjustable arc joint and slip joint pliers overcome the problem of having the handles too close or too far apart when gripping an item.  That's why I often carry a Knipex Cobra pliers.

Incorporating that into a reasonably sized multitool which also has a wire cutter would be interesting.

... and I'll dig out the Wichard tool too ... This has slipjoint, chrome plated, forged pliers ... and I'm pretty sure it has a small wire cutting area too. Unfortunately it's a bit limited with other tools. A flat driver/pry thing on the end of the plier handle, a semi serrated blade, and a can opener/caplifter

Schrade also used to make an MT with slipjoint pliers: the Schrade ST5 (and the Craftsman Professional 45471 re-labelled version).  The pliers are reputed to be quite robust due to the laminated and overlapping construction of the jaws.

http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-index.php?page=ST5E+Tough+Tool

I never realised that tool had slipjoint pliers 

Wasn't that one a hellish tool to try and use?

[AimlessWanderer]

  I am going a different route and carry a pair Channel Lock slipjoint pliers with a Crater knife or SAK.

I've had my eyes on a couple of the smaller knipex pliers for a while now.
I keep finding something else to spend the funds on though 

[Monrogue]

I had considered the Diesel way back when I was debating what Gerber MT to get for my second one.  Now you're making me want to get one just to check it out

I think I was trying to sway you when you were looking at the Flik (?)  but you wouldn't listen 

Yeah you were   Maybe someday when I feel the need to buy another MT to try, I will get the Diesel.  I think it will be at least one of the ones I consider anyway.  I really don't think I have much need at this point to get anything else, unless there's something new someday that really appeals to me. 

[gregozedobe]

Adjustable arc joint and slip joint pliers overcome the problem of having the handles too close or too far apart when gripping an item.  That's why I often carry a Knipex Cobra pliers.

Incorporating that into a reasonably sized multitool which also has a wire cutter would be interesting.

... and I'll dig out the Wichard tool too ... This has slipjoint, chrome plated, forged pliers ... and I'm pretty sure it has a small wire cutting area too. Unfortunately it's a bit limited with other tools. A flat driver/pry thing on the end of the plier handle, a semi serrated blade, and a can opener/caplifter

Schrade also used to make an MT with slipjoint pliers: the Schrade ST5 (and the Craftsman Professional 45471 re-labelled version).  The pliers are reputed to be quite robust due to the laminated and overlapping construction of the jaws.

http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-index.php?page=ST5E+Tough+Tool

I never realised that tool had slipjoint pliers 

Wasn't that one a hellish tool to try and use?

I haven't put mine to heavy usage as they are a bit rare these days, but I haven't noticed any particular issues. They are fairly large and heavy.  If you can remember what specific problem there was I'll check it out on my examples.

[parnass]

I never realised that tool had slipjoint pliers 

Wasn't that one a hellish tool to try and use?

The individual blades on my Sears Craftsman version were very difficult to open. They were riveted so no adjustment was possible.  That's why the Schrade version is known as the Schrade Tough to Open tool.   

The pliers worked OK.  Though the photo doesn't show it, the pliers was a slip joint affair with 2 positions.

Link to user manual: http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=393

[Zed]

Its funny as the only leathermans that hurt my hands are the ST/ST300 and the pst/pst2 and pulse,ive never felt that my old wave is that uncomfortable in plier position,oddly prefer it to the charge,i did find the mp800 comfortable if not a tad too chunky,

It's been ages since I've had a go with an old style Wave. Do the handles sit differently to the new style?

there rounded and smooth as no  inches/mm ruler and they dont have the cover that goes upto the pliers,very comfy though,i personally still cant find a mt that compares to the old wave ,its the mt i judge others by,

[AimlessWanderer]

Greg ... I can't remember what the specific problem was. I remember something about being difficult to grip because of the angle on the handles, but I thought these was something else too ... 

parnass ... Thanks mate 

Paul ... Cheers mate  Can you remember if the handle spread/angle is about the same on the new and the old?

[AimlessWanderer]

I was thinking earlier about the Leatherman Leap, and wondering what kind of a job they did on that with the tool being designed for hands much smaller and weaker than mine. Did they make the same "errors", or have they had the foresight to make amendments to how they do stuff. I don't have a Leap, but there's some great photos on here from Chako, which compare the tool to a Juice.

I hope he doesn't mind if I borrow a couple ...



This photo of Dan's shows that despite having far less tools than a XE6, they have somehow bulked the handles up to the same size. The fact there are plenty of "soft" edges for a comfortable grip is great, but surely they could have made it a bit more size efficient for a smaller hand. However, from another one of Dan's pics, it looks like they did do a couple of things which may make the Leap rate better than the Juice in this thread if I had photographed it the same way.

Let's have a quick reminder of the Juice first though ...



... and now a look at Dan's side-by-side shot ...



The first thing I noticed is that the handles on the pliers in the closed position seem to be more parallel than they do on the Juice. This means that whilst gripping something, the hands will be less inclined to try sliding forwards to the pliers head. Possibly even more so based on the materials used. The second thing is that the main gripping section is further forwards away from the pivot. This also means that the pliers have to open to a lesser angle on the Leap to hold something the same size. I don't know how much thought they put into this aspect, based on the fact the handles seem fatter than they need to be, but at least they did improve the grip slightly for smaller hands in other ways.

Two out of three isn't bad I suppose 

[Yalius]

You're using your pliers wrong. You'll get much better leverage and a more controllable grip if you slip your pinky off the handles entirely and use just your index, middle, and ring fingers, but as close to the ends of the handles as possible. Use the plier handles as a lever to gain maximum mechanical advantage and remember that a little extra lever length is much more useful than your pinky being in the most advantageous position.

[Etherealicer]

You're using your pliers wrong. You'll get much better leverage and a more controllable grip if you slip your pinky off the handles entirely and use just your index, middle, and ring fingers, but as close to the ends of the handles as possible. Use the plier handles as a lever to gain maximum mechanical advantage and remember that a little extra lever length is much more useful than your pinky being in the most advantageous position.

If I understand you correctly, then you are suggesting to grip further back. However, the whole point of this thread is that the handles need to open very wide, gripping further back only intensifies the issue.

[AimlessWanderer]

You're using your pliers wrong. You'll get much better leverage and a more controllable grip if you slip your pinky off the handles entirely and use just your index, middle, and ring fingers, but as close to the ends of the handles as possible. Use the plier handles as a lever to gain maximum mechanical advantage and remember that a little extra lever length is much more useful than your pinky being in the most advantageous position.

If I understand you correctly, then you are suggesting to grip further back. However, the whole point of this thread is that the handles need to open very wide, gripping further back only intensifies the issue.

^^^ This!

I took all this photos the same way (with the wrong hand) for illustrative purposes just to show the amount of grip I have/haven't got available on the various tools. I will obviously adjust my grip according to what I'm doing, but if the grip is too splayed, or gripping further back on the handles takes the grip out of efficiency, then that's not going to offer any advantage whatsoever. Probably the reverse. In fact if you look at the photos, I would be unable to achieve that grip at all on many of the items shown ... and that's with size 9 hands. People with smaller hands would find them even worse.

[dks]

 


http://www.amazon.com/Morris-Costumes-741545002967-Finger-Extensions/dp/B0052U4XMO

[Chako]

No issues with the photo borrowing. All MT.O members can borrow them.

As for the finger extensions...classic.