Please consider this...

[plowboy]

I hope I'm not goofing up here, but I want to post a thread encouraging each of you to take important action.  Doug Ritter of Equipped to Survive has started an organization to help protect honest, law-abiding citizens rights to own knives and edged tools.  The organization was orginally named United States Knife and Tool Assocation, but the name has been changed to Knife Rights.  As of today the organization is accepting memberships.  I have joined.  Please go to www.kniferights.org to learn more about the organization.

If protecting your right to own and use edged tools is important, please consider joining.  Better yet, don't just consider it....Do it.

If I have violated any rule by posting this, forgive me and take appropriate action.  But, this is important so respond accordingly.

Thank you,
plowboy

[Grant Lamontagne]

At the very least, check out the company that has built the site, as MondayTech is partially owned by a prominent Multitool.org and SOSAK member...

And one who has busted his hiney like crazy for the past couple weeks to get that site up in time!

Def

[plowboy]

I knew that there were good and talented folks here.

MondayTech did a nice job.
 

[665ae]

How does Knife Rights differ from AKTI?

[bobofish]

Forgive me for the bluntness, and maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it a bit Chicken Littleish to "defend" our right to have knives in North America?
I mean, even in Britain, they couldn't possibly be so stupid as to finally ban knives. Just because some monkey is trying to do it, doesn't mean that even housewives will go for it. After all, what would they cut their cucumber sandwiches with?

I also think it's stirring up a fight that doesn't exist. I mean the rules on the books are pretty straight forward, reasonable, and have been there for a long time. Don't carry anything you can butcher a water buffalo with, and everything's ok. In Oregon, you can even carry a long knife or handgun concealed, as long as you are "on the way" or "back from" a hunting or fishing trip.

So forgive me, but perhaps all this effort is better spent trying to achieve our rights towards sound government rather than fighting a non-existent fight.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I agree for the most part, but then it's easy for me.  The laws concerning blades in Canada are simple (no gravity blades, no butterflies, no autos and no concealing anything) and you can pretty well carry a katana down the street.  I know- in my younger (and stupider) days I did it! 

State law and municipal law can supercede federal laws in the US about what is ok and what is not ok.  Two years ago, Michigan tried to ban SAKs and multis.  Amazingly stupid, but without someone to point out how moronic an idea like that is, it probably would have passed.  Imagine being wrestled to the ground by two burly cops, fined a thousand dollars and sentanced to six weeks jail time (to be served on weekends so as not to affect your job) simply because you carry a MultiPlier?  Really, really, unimaginably dumb, but that was almost the case.

So while I don;t believe there should be a need for an organization, and while there may be little for them to actually do right now, be glad they are there when you need them.  And don;t forget that there are many jurisdictions nowadays that have more accessable gun laws than knife laws, simply because someone was there to fight against gun stupidities.  In California for example you can pretty well carry anything that goes bang (or BANG, or bangbangbangbangbangbangbang etc) but Heaven help you if your hunting knife is double edged, your auto is over two inches, or components of your Leatherman are made outside the US.

Def

[CacherX4]

In California for example you can pretty well carry anything that goes bang (or BANG, or bangbangbangbangbangbangbang etc) but Heaven help you if your hunting knife is double edged, your auto is over two inches, or components of your Leatherman are made outside the US.
Def

Now that is funny!!!!

[J-sews]

At the very least, check out the company that has built the site, as MondayTech is partially owned by a prominent Multitool.org and SOSAK member...

And one who has busted his hiney like crazy for the past couple weeks to get that site up in time!

Def

I always wondered what it was like being a programmer in Argentina.....

[damota]

bobofish
Believe me, do not think that politicians of any party will ever back the silent, they want votes, that's how they get their money, by being in power. After a Killing of children at a school in the UK common sence went out of the window. Law abiding people are are harrased, sometimes jailed but the criminals still have their weapons and use them. After all if you are caught for 1 crime they might as well commit 2.
Just about any anti can get the papers interested, that gets the laws past (that are all knee jerk reactions) and once the laaws are there the police walk all over the people to make it easy for themselves. When handguns were banned over here the police now shoot anyone that looks like thet are carrying a gun. For instance, one of the people shot was into fast draw (in a club were it was known that blank firers were being used) was shot while practicing. The girlfriend of a farmworker was shot who was just garden pinking with an air pistol. then there was the well reported table leg incident and they say there is no shoot to kill policy. The police, police themselves so any mistake3s are overlooked.
It has been trailed that anything with a point is not needed in a kitchen (proposed by 3 doctors who stated they had contacted celebrity chefs and they had confirmed they were not essential to do cookingin the home). No names were mentioned, have you heard of any celebrity of any sort who would not want his/her name to be stated with a campagne like that? Total BS but it got media coverasge. I believe it was just a start of something that has yet to arise seeing that most stabbings are done in the home with kitchen tools.
The penelty is 2 years in prison if you are caught with a blade over 3" if it locks it is classed as a fixed blade automatic imprisonment becauuse any fixed blade is banned. The only defense you can have is upto you to prove that it essential to your trade and that is where you were going to or from when you were caught. If you are caught in a shop either going or returning from work you could lose that defence.
There are a myriad of anti organizations over here so there has to be more pro organization so for your own sake back it, I can only admire those folks that are getting it going and I am jealous that no organization like that was around when we needed it. If you do nothing there will be a trigger like Dunblane and you will not be prepared. Then you could be like us, only a blade allowed has to be under 3" in a non locking handle (no fixed blades whatever the length) all handguns banned no carrying of a rifle or shotgunwithin 20 yards of a public highway unless covered and empty (no dashing across the road to another field, any sort of hunting if not already banned probably will be in the near future.
This has lead to the perception that anyone carrying a knife or that has any interest in weapons is a potential murderer, stand in a pub with a rolled up news paper and you can be arrested for having a battoin!
FWIW A 3" safety tipped plastic knife could be used for cutting cucumber sandwiches. Just think of the sales pitch - a true stainless, rustproof cutting tool that only costs half the price of a metal knife, the gulable noninterested (there is more of them than there is us) would lap it up.  

Dave

[CQC-7]

I might be wrong but who is Stupid enough to suggest banning knives.  Apparently there are some people out there and I mean way out there that think it is a good idea.  My dad gave me my first pocketknife when I was 5.  I carried it everyday and everywhere, it was always there when I needed it as a tool.  I even carried it to school.  I never stabbed anyone.  Furthermore, all my friends carried knives as well.  At the rural school that I attended one of my friends carried a leatherman everyday on his belt and nobody so much as batted an eye at this. 

I may be going out on a limb here but some bean countin, desk jockey, weak, politician of a person is going to try to impose a ban someday.  AND, it is our DUTY as carriers of knives and tools, and some of us as Americans to flat out ignore the law if such a law should come to exist.  I carry a knife everyday not just for my job but for anything I need it for.  Half of our politicians probally never had a REAL job where their hands had to get dirty.  Off topic but somewhat relevant is the fact that the same politicians that passed legislation to collect student loan money from people who could not pay in fact defaulted on their student loans.  I am just trying to paint a picture of the people we are dealing with on the knife issue.  Also to note the same people that want to ban violent video games defend NAMBLA.  These people make no sense.

I worked at a hospital in the kitchen while in college.  Post 9/11 The hospital called for a ban on all "weapons."  I asked my boss "what are we to cut food with?"  I followed the rules only to keep my job, keeping my spyderco in my car.  However, If I wanted to harm someone could I not use my shoe laces as a weapon.  Impromptu laws and rules banning "weapons" and specifically knives and tools are total bull and anyone who would consider such a ban is just feeble minded and it is a wonder that they managed to survive and reproduce.  Such people should be sterilized.

Has anyone read the article in BLADE magazine about the british anti knife campagin?  IT is freakin scary.  I am not paranoid, I am far past it.   

[J-sews]

Has anyone read the article in BLADE magazine about the british anti knife campagin?

I believe that is what British member Damota is referring to in the previous post.

[bobofish]

Anyone who has read (and remembers) 1984 will know about "duckspeak." That is, the idea that in the future we could all just spout monosyllabic utterances from our throats, completely bypassing our brains for permission. Such Duckspeak is possibly what some of these politicians and special interest groups probablly practice in the bedroom.

I've thought for some time now that there are two abilities that make us human; the ability to cut things, and the ability to start and control fires. As a result, I carry a knife and a lighter, if for no other reason than that it makes me a card carrying member of the human species. The fact that I smoke and sometimes need to slice open packages is irrelevant. Frankly without the knife, there would be no tool development, including computers. Without fire, we couldn't have rockets. Therefore, out of nostalgia, if nothing else, everybody should carry a knife and a lighter. (or matches, or a ferro rod, etc.)

[Anthony]

I get the feeling America and civilized nations are disarming the general population.  They aren't outright BANNING guns and knives, but they are becoming harder and harder to buy and carry.

I read the knife carry laws for Rhode Island, and it contradicts itself IMO, therefore the police or a judge can 'follow' it however it suits them.   Since the law isn't CLEAR, an average citizen like myself has to think twice before carrying a knife, while the drugged up criminal who can gut me outside a gas station doesn't even realize there is a law.

Up is down, black is white...

[Tom Munch]

I'm intrigued by the whole pocket clip one-hand thing.  The argument in the WSJ article seems to say that clips & one-handedness were added purely to make knives a tactical weapon & to boost knife sales.  I'm not thinking of self defense primarily or even secondarily when I clip on a one-handed knife.  I just want to be able to get my knife out easily while my other hand is occupied - it's a more useful tool.  It bothers me that these conveniences may have been created to boost knife sales by making "scarier" weapons.  Therefore I understand how the general population could be afraid of tactical knives.  It scares me a little to think that some idiot could walk up behind me in a crowd & flip open & knife & stab me in a split second.  I think common sense will prevail, but I also think some knives (especially the fantasy stuff) are ridiculous & don't have any real purpose in our world.  I'm not for control, but I also understand that there needs to be some organization that can be vigilant & make sure the pendulum doesn't swing too far one way or the other.  If that's all this group is being created for then I'm all for it.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Now that's part of the silly mentality- that folks can "only" be stabbed by a tactical type knife.  Studies have shown that most stabbing victims (and this is the basis of the UK kitchen knife laws) are stabbed by kitchen knives.  Additionally, I have seen what a Victorinox Classic (one and a half inch blade for those who aren't familiar with it) can do to a person on a crowded dancefloor at a club.  It makes a serious mess, and very much life threatening.

To me, the definition of a "weapon" is something used to cause injury to a person or property.  This could be a knife, a gun, a car, a pipe, broken glass, aggressive mailings (paper and e-mails) and pretty much anything that one could use in order to deliberately cause harm.  With this definition, one would be free to carry a knife or virtually anything else, provided that they didn't intend to harm anyone with it.  Then, for those who do, have extremely harsh punishments.

I spent three years working in jails and dealing with everything from local drug dealers and bullies all the way up to serial killers and professional hitmen, and I'll tell you that jail is no deterrant anymore.  And, for those states that still have it, capitol punishment isn't a deterrant either because it's been made very comfortable and relaxed for inmates. 

Perhaps a look at some European prisons might help to convince folks to behave, rather than the country clubs you see here.

Def

[damota]

I get the feeling America and civilized nations are disarming the general population.  They aren't outright BANNING guns and knives, but they are becoming harder and harder to buy and carry.

I agree with you there, they do not need an armed public as helped at the start of WW2. If this global warming thing ever does become fact then the public will be the enemy, if they have weapons they will fight over food and water and will be harder for any government to put down and control.

Dave

[Tom Munch]

I guess it's part of paranoia & some part of prejudice, but how many of you trust everyone you know with a knife?  I don't even trust my wife with a knife (but that's another story).  Unfortunately both sides take this to the extreme in most cases - alternately one side trying to ban all knives while the other side tries to allow all knives.  When the professional spinners get involved then we all lose.  It's a part of human nature that I detest.

Def, I know we could just as easily be stabbed with a Classic as with a tactical knife, but what bothers me is the idiot that will carry a tactical knife for the cool factor, not the guy who carries a Classic for everyday uses.

[CQC-7]

I was just browsing the issue of Blade magazine again going over the article about the british anti knife campagin.  On page 42 the knife amnesty pamphlet cover on the lower right corner there is this:

                                      CROYDON
                                      COUNCIL
                                  cleaner safer greener

I agree with being cleaner, I believe in saftey, but what the heck does GREENER have anything to do with a council devoted to being cleaner and safer.  These people are COMMUNISTS and would probally be vegan hippie farmers working on some organtic food CO-OP if they were here in the states.  You know, the type of people that spend millions of dollars to find out if tomatoes scream if you cut them from a vine.  No wonder they want to ban knives, there are a lot of innocent tomatoes out there.  Perhaps they should clean their own minds instead of washing the brains of the young.   

I do carry a "tactical folder" I also carry a multi tool most of the time.  Pocket clips, black blades, and one handed opening are really cool but do not make a blade more leathal.  A classic SAK can be a weapon.  But so can a shoelace.  What about ballpoint pens?  Most higher end models have a pocket clip and deploy the ballpoint with one hand at the push of a button, and some even come in black.  I'd wager that a determined attacker can kill with a pen much quicker than a classic SAK.

In my home state.  "Any dangerous ordinance" is a weapon.  There are specific criteria banning gravity knives, switchblades, balisongs, and ballistic knives, but no referance to blade length.  However, if you are the guest of honor at a traffic stop and your case stockman folder looks dangerous to the officer he can arrest you, take your knife away, or let you go.  There is no law protecting you against the officers judgement because there is no standard you are at his mercy and law abiding citizens can and will comply with his judgment whether they agree or not.   
 

[plowboy]

Well, I haven't been online for approximately 20 hours and it seems there has been a bit of discussion here.  Honestly, there is more diversity of opinion than I expected...but that's okay.  It seems that some of you are concerned that this is a radical organization....I've thought this through and I truly belive it is not.  If I though it were, I wouldn't be a member.   What I think it is, is an organization that is responding to the loss of freedoms in some areas related to knives and edged tools.  The orginization is designed to preserve freedoms and to do this is an above board legal way.

While I accept some of your points that there is not much of a problem yet, it does seem that this issue is on the horizon.  Also, there was a point made about being stabbed in the back with a big tatical knife....IMHO, I think that all crime is behavioral.  As a result, the solution must also be behavioral...maybe I'm wrong...wouldn't be the first time....but that's what I think.

It does appear to me that many folks today, especially some politicians, are willing to sacrifice individual rights for corporate (or group) rights.  (And guess who defines what the corporate rights should be).  For example, and I'm not a smoker, the local city council just banned smoking in all public places...even bars.  I have strong feeling that smoking is BAD for one's health, but I was very opposed to the ban.  The ban makes it illegal to use a legal product in public places.  This, I think, is especially crazy for bars...who doesn't expect smoke in a bar.  Anyway....

All I want to do is to ask you to consider this organization.  If it doesn't fit, then don't join.  Just remember that if we do find ourselves with considerable restrictions on the carry and use of edged tools in the future, you had a chance to try to affect the outcome postiviely. 

And thanks for your honest input.

 

[plowboy]

How does Knife Rights differ from AKTI?

No.  As I understand it, AKTI is basically a lobby group for knife and tool manufacturers (I know that AKTI also take memberships from individuals too, but the focus in manufacturer lobbying).

 Knife Rights is an organization to promote the legal rights of end users.

 

[Grant Lamontagne]

At the very least, USKTI is an insurance policy against potential government issues.  Probably worth checking out whether you feel your rights are threatened or not, just as you probably feel safe in your car.  However, the one time you need them, you'll be glad they are there.  If they weren't a legitimate organization, I wouldn't have loaned them my programmer!

Behavior modification is important too, but I believe that's a seperate issue.  There will always be people either killing, or trying to kill eachother.  Removing knives is a great way to stop people from killing eachother with knives.  So, they'll get big sticks, a group of friends, broken glass, inbred pitbulls or some other means.

Of course, all of this hinges on a knife being a weapon.  A weapon is a tool that is used to harm, and can be anything.  Thus, my earlier definition of what should legally constitute a weapon- anything used to do harm.  If you use a cane to hit someone with, it's a weapon.  If you use a cane to walk, it's a tool.  Sure it's a reactionary description, but it fits in nicely with reactionary law...

Def

[Grant Lamontagne]

Oh, and just to confuse folks even more- I agree with Tom when he says some folks shouldn't have knives.  That's my biggest issue with the Right To Keep And Bear Arms.  I think it's a great idea, but should be governed by the NRA (or similar private organization because I don't feel that just anyone should have one.  One should be trained and prove a certain level of proficiency before being allowed to have one.

Gun control is using both hands, and better if those hands can aim the damned thing!

Def

[plowboy]

At the very least, USKTI is an insurance policy against potential government issues.  Probably worth checking out whether you feel your rights are threatened or not, just as you probably feel safe in your car.  However, the one time you need them, you'll be glad they are there.  If they weren't a legitimate organization, I wouldn't have loaned them my programmer!

Def

I'm only quoting part of Def's posting, but it supports my point that Knife Rights, Inc. (formely USKTI) is a legitimate organization.  Do take a look.

Thank you!

 

[NutSAK]

It does appear to me that many folks today, especially some politicians, are willing to sacrifice individual rights for corporate (or group) rights.  (And guess who defines what the corporate rights should be).  For example, and I'm not a smoker, the local city council just banned smoking in all public places...even bars.  I have strong feeling that smoking is BAD for one's health, but I was very opposed to the ban.  The ban makes it illegal to use a legal product in public places.  This, I think, is especially crazy for bars...who doesn't expect smoke in a bar.  Anyway....

Boy, that sounds familiar.  A city nearby my home town banned smoking in public establishments--in KENTUCKY!  Can you believe that?  One of the cities in a state where a large portion of the economy comes from the tobacco crop has banned tobacco in public establishments. 

I feel sorry for the bar owners in that area....

[ausjulius]

Anyone who has read (and remembers) 1984 will know about "duckspeak." That is, the idea that in the future we could all just spout monosyllabic utterances from our throats, completely bypassing our brains for permission. Such Duckspeak is possibly what some of these politicians and special interest groups probablly practice in the bedroom.

I've thought for some time now that there are two abilities that make us human; the ability to cut things, and the ability to start and control fires. As a result, I carry a knife and a lighter, if for no other reason than that it makes me a card carrying member of the human species. The fact that I smoke and sometimes need to slice open packages is irrelevant. Frankly without the knife, there would be no tool development, including computers. Without fire, we couldn't have rockets. Therefore, out of nostalgia, if nothing else, everybody should carry a knife and a lighter. (or matches, or a ferro rod, etc.)

doublespeek,  was the word, and it was part of "newspeek" the new insog language,
good ol orwell was a smart guy,  good book,
thing is they use these techniques in politics now, and  it is quite apparent in  u.s. where political spin doctoring is most developed,

politicians are an eveil race, and one that must be  constantly watched ,, and occasionaly purged,

[mcniac]

I knew that there were good and talented folks here.

MondayTech did a nice job.
Smiley

thanxs for your words!

I always wondered what it was like being a programmer in Argentina.....

LOL it is not that good but is kinda fun sometimes


about the laws, here we don't have any restriction about knives specifily, but you cannot carry nothing with the intention to hurt someone, the main issue is that the police officer is the one who decides if you are carying that knife (or anything else) to hurt someone or not, anyway most of the times i don't get a problem 'cos that, but if you use a knife you were carrying to defend yourself, you in a big problem, better not to! at least that is the reality here

Esteban