Question for the gun/military history buffs

[kirk13]

Coming back from this mornings comp,my shooting partner was saying he'd been watch a YouTube video about sniper rifles(as you do)

The vid ended with a question: When did sniping start?

Don't peek,I'd like your answers

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My guess is with American militia during the War of Independence,or perhaps during the Canadian campaigns against the French during the Seven Years War,in both instances with Pennsylvania  Long Rifles

[Higgins617]

I read about union sharpshooters during the Civil war over here. I can't imagine this is the first time, but the argument that weapons prior to this were too inaccurate and unreliable seem to make it seem a bit more solid.

[Zed]

Back in the time of crossbows 

[Aloha]

I was watching something recently about the Civil war and the advances of weapons during that time.  I recall rifling of barrels happening allowing soldiers to shoot more accurate and further so I'd say sniping was started at this point. 

[Gareth]

French Indian Wars (Seven Years War)?  I'm thinking Rodger's Rangers etc.

[kosmo]

I peeked.  I would have thought it was much earlier, but after reading the Book of Knowledge (wikipedia) on the subject, it kind-of makes sense.

[Gareth]

The answer might depend on how we define the difference, if any, between Sharpshooting and Sniping.

With that in mind I might hedge my bets a little and say that Sniping as we understand it today probably came about in the First World War.

[Smashie]

The answer might depend on how we define the difference, if any, between Sharpshooting and Sniping.

Ah semantics, the term sniper came from India around 1770 iirc, Sharpshooting and Marksmanship probably came earlier.

Now the difference between a Sniper and a Designated Marksman is? Also define a a 'Sniper Rifle'. Two questions that will generate lots of opinions and controversy.

[greenbear]

I may be being naïve but surely the act of "sniping" as we know it arrived with the rifled barrel?  Prior to that nothing would have the accuracy required.  I'm saying Seven Years War 

[enki_ck]

Only sniping I know is the eBay one.

[Smashie]

I may be being naïve but surely the act of "sniping" as we know it arrived with the rifled barrel?  Prior to that nothing would have the accuracy required.  I'm saying Seven Years War 

The act of yes, but not the term 

[Grathr]

Back in the time of crossbows 

I agree with you on that one Zed. Sniping soldiers on the wall with crossbows was, as far as I know, common during sieges.


Sent from a device made from star dust using tapatalk

[Noa Isumi]

Records of individual marksmen go back to David and Goliath. Hercoilbuss (sp) and rifled fowlers appear in the early/mid 1700s
And snipe hunting was popular around that same time. Snipe being a small English bird fond of walking and hiding in brush, not the American joke to get first time hunters lost in the woods at night. Hence "sniper" due to the difficulty finding and shooting such a small target at range.

There was a sniper unit during the American Revolution called Penn's Rifles that the Discovery and MH Chanel credits as being the first dedicated sniper unit with 70-100 members, all passing a test of 3 shots on a 4x4in target at 100yrds. Remember many malitias of the day had members that were long hunters who lived by their rifle, some had previous experience in Rogers Rangers the often recognized as the first special forces battalion several years earlier during the French and Indian War(7yrs war).
Rogers however was a true rainger orginazetion and operated at full battalion strength usualy with 2-3 battalions of British regulars not too far behind as backup.
Rogers would move to England after the war but come back to try and join the Continentals but was rejected by Washington who was unsure of his loyalties. Snubbed he would return to England and form the Queens Royal Rangers and fight for the British.
Rogers developed the first dedicated sniper rifle, a screw breach that loaded with paper cartrages that were crushed open when you closed the breach.
He supposedly had a shot at Washington (though without optics id is historical not live)but didn't take it as it would be dishonorable to kill an officer in such a way.
Several of Rogers rifle s are on display at the armory museum in London.

Sorry about spelling my phone's auto correct is trying to drive me mad.

[cbl51]

Rogers developed the first dedicated sniper rifle, a screw breach that loaded with paper cartrages that were crushed open when you closed the breach.
He supposedly had a shot at Washington (though without optics id is historical not live)but didn't take it as it would be dishonorable to kill an officer in such a way.
Several of Rogers rifle s are on display at the armory museum in London.

Sorry about spelling my phone's auto correct is trying to drive me mad.

I think you are confusing him with Major Patrick Ferguson who was the inventor of the screw breech Ferguson rifle. It was Major Ferguson who refrained from sniping General Washington as he considered shooting an officer un-kosher.

[ironraven]

That is almost a philosophical question. I could make an argument that scouts/rangers/jeagers/etc have been acting in the recon and selective targeting of enemy assets and personnel ever since the start of war.

As all ready discussed, "sniping" goes to the Raj, and the term used in WWI by the Brits. "Marksman" goes back to when you aimed at a mark and had to hit near it, but if you could hit it, you were "shooting the mark" and thus a "marksman".

"Sharpshooter" goes to the US Civil War, where the Union Army itself had the Sharpshooter Regiment, basically a ranger unit, under the command of Colonel Berdan, and they used the Sharps rifle which was more accurate and faster (along with some foreign arms such as English Whiteworth and some custom peices). It is notable not only did they not carry the Springfield, but also they were one of the few units that were actually Union forces rather than state forces under Union command, and if you were good enough to qualify, they called you a "Sharp shooter". They also got the spiffy green uniforms that were devoid of shiny brass. 

Designated marksman is a bit more specific. It is someone who is NOT a sniper. The DM is a good shot, usually the best shot in a unit, who is sent to learn how to be a better shot (in some militaries), counter sniping (in some militiaries), how to get the most of thermal or light enhancing sights (in some militaries), and is equipped with a rifle of greater penetration, range (and sometimes accuracy) than those issued to the average rifleman (actually, carbines are what most folks are issued). This soldier then returns to his squad or platoon and supports it with aimed fire past the range of the typical rifleman or those behind cover that the typical rifleman's weapon can not defeat; in this way, they are an organic support weapon much the same way one would think of a grenadier or an MG team. An fairly typical example of this is the old Soviet infantry model where just about everyone has an AK and is expected to be able to shoot it out to 400m, while the marksman is issued a SVD (Drugenov) which has an reasonably effective range of 800m and is equipped with a 4x scope. The SVD lacks the accuracy to considered a true marksman's rifle IMHO, nor does it need to be- 2ish MOA is sufficient for this, making it similar to the accuracy of an M-14 (not an M-21) or G-3, topped with an OK but not great hunting scope similiar to the more budget entries from Bushnell, for example.

[Noa Isumi]

I'm just glad someone else remembers the screw breach answer Washington not shot story.  Even if I remembered a little off.

[ColoSwiss]

A lot of interesting info here. 

Little to add except a minor quibble that some sources say 'sharpshooter' predates Berdan's Sharpshooters.

Also during WWII U S troops tended to call any individual enemy soldier a sniper, whether he was specially trained and equipped or not. For instance Japanese troops in the tops of palm trees were invariably referred to as snipers.

[Noa Isumi]

I probably am confusing Rogers with Furgison it's been awhile since I saw the documentrey. 
Wasn't Furgison a member of the Royal Rangers though? Memory fuzzy been 7yrs at least.

[ColoSwiss]

Here's some info on Ferguson. The article suggests that the senior American officer may have actually been Casimir Pulaski, a Polish nobleman serving with the Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Ferguson

[jerseydevil]

Ferguson was killed by an American rifle ball at the Battle of King's Mountain.  Interestingly he was the only British soldier on the field.  His troops were all Loyalists.

[Smashie]

That is almost a philosophical question. I could make an argument that scouts/rangers/jeagers/etc have been acting in the recon and selective targeting of enemy assets and personnel ever since the start of war.

As all ready discussed, "sniping" goes to the Raj, and the term used in WWI by the Brits. "Marksman" goes back to when you aimed at a mark and had to hit near it, but if you could hit it, you were "shooting the mark" and thus a "marksman".

"Sharpshooter" goes to the US Civil War, where the Union Army itself had the Sharpshooter Regiment, basically a ranger unit, under the command of Colonel Berdan, and they used the Sharps rifle which was more accurate and faster (along with some foreign arms such as English Whiteworth and some custom peices). It is notable not only did they not carry the Springfield, but also they were one of the few units that were actually Union forces rather than state forces under Union command, and if you were good enough to qualify, they called you a "Sharp shooter". They also got the spiffy green uniforms that were devoid of shiny brass. 

Designated marksman is a bit more specific. It is someone who is NOT a sniper. The DM is a good shot, usually the best shot in a unit, who is sent to learn how to be a better shot (in some militaries), counter sniping (in some militiaries), how to get the most of thermal or light enhancing sights (in some militaries), and is equipped with a rifle of greater penetration, range (and sometimes accuracy) than those issued to the average rifleman (actually, carbines are what most folks are issued). This soldier then returns to his squad or platoon and supports it with aimed fire past the range of the typical rifleman or those behind cover that the typical rifleman's weapon can not defeat; in this way, they are an organic support weapon much the same way one would think of a grenadier or an MG team. An fairly typical example of this is the old Soviet infantry model where just about everyone has an AK and is expected to be able to shoot it out to 400m, while the marksman is issued a SVD (Drugenov) which has an reasonably effective range of 800m and is equipped with a 4x scope. The SVD lacks the accuracy to considered a true marksman's rifle IMHO, nor does it need to be- 2ish MOA is sufficient for this, making it similar to the accuracy of an M-14 (not an M-21) or G-3, topped with an OK but not great hunting scope similiar to the more budget entries from Bushnell, for example.

Nailed it 

And yes I agree it is a more philosophical question, I have seen far too many many people arguing from a point of ignorance. 

With regards to the old Soviet model their doctrine relied on you average infantryman getting as many rounds out to 400M as possible. Select fire AK's go from safe -> full auto - > semi, NATO was safe -> Semi -> auto. They didn't have the best technology so they tried to beat it by sheer volume. Also the reason they hung onto old and outdated artillery and tanks. 

[ironraven]

With regards to the old Soviet model their doctrine relied on you average infantryman getting as many rounds out to 400M as possible. Select fire AK's go from safe -> full auto - > semi, NATO was safe -> Semi -> auto. They didn't have the best technology so they tried to beat it by sheer volume. Also the reason they hung onto old and outdated artillery and tanks.

They could have had something very M-14ish, wouldn't have been hard- Russian engineering is usually based on "good enough" but they do make some true precision rifles. But their doctrine was based on the success they had with their various SMGs in WWII in the hands of motorized infantry working directly with (and riding on) tanks, combined with some top down, whacky communist dogma. It really is hard to argue with the success the Commies had with this concept while killing Nazis. Then found out it had issues, so they issued some SVDs and replaced the RPDs with PKMs (that and the RPDs kinda were glitchy as I recall).

What I don't have is a good date for when they made that decision, and if twas just a matter of "Thank God, Stalin's dead so we can actually do some smart stuff" or if it was actual battlefield results that led to that, maybe the border bickering they had with the PRC. Or lessons learned by their "allies" (is "flunky" too harsh a term?) in the Middle East?

[ironraven]

Little to add except a minor quibble that some sources say 'sharpshooter' predates Berdan's Sharpshooters.

If you got a source for that, I'd love to take a look at it. Although the Sharps rifle did predate the war, and it was one of the most accurate rifles of the day, so... maybe it was still there for the Sharps rifle even it predates the Sharpshooter Regiments.

[ColoSwiss]

Little to add except a minor quibble that some sources say 'sharpshooter' predates Berdan's Sharpshooters.

If you got a source for that, I'd love to take a look at it. Although the Sharps rifle did predate the war, and it was one of the most accurate rifles of the day, so... maybe it was still there for the Sharps rifle even it predates the Sharpshooter Regiments.

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.) says the term dates to 1802.

Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (2nd ed.) says it dates to 1795-1805, and comes from the German 'Scharfschutz'.

I also recall reading it in several military history/weapons books, none of which come immediately to hand. Most of my books deal with 20th Century history and weapons.

On the subject of Sharps. Thirty-some years ago I knew two of the three foremost Sharps collectors in the country. One of them was a high-powered attorney who also owned a local gun shop. When the other collector was going through a nasty divorce he sold his collection on paper to the local dealer and stored the guns in the dealer's vault, to make sure the soon-to-be ex didn't get ahold of them. That must have been an incredible accumulation of rare firearms in one place.

[greenbear]

I may be being naïve but surely the act of "sniping" as we know it arrived with the rifled barrel?  Prior to that nothing would have the accuracy required.  I'm saying Seven Years War 

The act of yes, but not the term 

Ah, yes, see where you're coming from Smashie