Gold And Silver Stacking/Investing

[N_N_R]

So... for a couple of years I've been thinking about that. Two years ago I bought a few tiny pieces of metal.. and by the time I realized this was something good, the prices of metals have already skyrocketed  Especially here, especially given our salaries and the price of the dollar going uuuuuup. So it's getting more and more hard to buy shiny stuff other than steel.

Anyway, what do you guys think about such kind of an investment?

- Do you do it?
- What do you think is better to invest in/buy, gold or silver?
- Any other thing you may think of


That's gonna be a really huge & broad topic, so you're welcome to share your thoughts. I'm interested in hearing all sorts of opinions - people favoouring metals as an investment and people thinking that's stupid and believing in the good old cash.

I am really no stacker in any way, mostly because of the prices. I've got like 8 miserable silver coins and several gold ones (mostly smaller sizes). It's really hard and takes time to set aside enough cash to buy gold. I wish I had bought as much as I could back in November 2013... (when I first started thinkig about that).

[wjruth]

Precious metal is an asset class - during downturns it can do well. It's main hindrance is the fact it does nothing for you and depending on your storage methods can cost you.
Silver moves quicker than gold and can be bought for less per Oz so it is a good starting place. Gold is a storage of value and moves less. The gold / silver ration should give an indication as to when silver value as it relates to gold makes changing some silver to gold. The prices today are closer to production cost than they were a year and a half ago, making it easier to acquire.
Overall, I think it's good to diversify.

[N_N_R]

Silver moves quicker than gold .......... Gold is a storage of value and moves less.

I've read other people say so, too... but on the site of the only company that sells investment products here, it seems to be the other way around. The prices of silver bullion coins may remain stable for days, while the prices of the gold products may change every half an hour.  I wonder if this has to do with some conversion rates and stuff again ....

[wjruth]

Use other charts - http://www.kitco.com/market/ to get an overview. Dollar amount it looks like gold moves more, but percentage wise, silver does.

[Mr. Whippy]

So in the US, this is how people tend to use investments.

US stocks have the best return on investment overall (better than real estate, better than precious metals, better than collectibles).  It is the most reliable way to built your assets long term.

Land/real estate can do as well or better DEPENDING on location, location, location.  If it's in a hot location, you do great.  If the location is not in high demand or becomes unpopular, you can lose a lot.

Precious metals is how many people secure financial assets to avoid taxes (you can hand over bricks of gold to a relative and the government will never know, but transfer money, land or stocks and the government will be there with a hand out) and to keep up with inflation.  The value of the dollar may drop, but gold will tend to maintain its value (relatively speaking)

Collectibles are a riskier version of precious metals.  If an artist or style goes out of vogue, the value can plummet.

And that's all I know.

[captain spaulding]

I think Gold and Silver can be a great investment if bought at the correct time.

the prices of metals have already skyrocketed  Especially here, especially given our salaries and the price of the dollar going uuuuuup. So it's getting more and more hard to buy shiny stuff other than steel.

I am a bit confused. In the United States the price of Gold and Silver has significantly dropped compared to a few years ago. For me it would be a excellent time to buy. That is if I believe the price will rise to what it was a few years ago. The great thing about Gold and Silver is it is very easy to sell. If you want cash or just want to sell it is not a issue. I am talking physical Gold and Silver here not stocks. I assume, since you mentioned only owning a few pieces and money being tight that you would buy a few pieces here and their to build up your stash. You have to remember when buying that when you walk into a coin store and buy "scrap" silver or bars they will charge you a premium over current price as to make a little on their end. When you sell they will give you less than current price is. Its good to talk to a few shops in town and see what their percentage is. If I were you I would probably start out with buying silver. I'm not sure how it goes around their, but here we used to produce our coins in silver so buying those is a safe bet. What I mean is you know 100% it is silver and what exact content it is. With bars you never really know.

[ironraven]

Is this to go with your nascent bug out bag, or pure investment? So, real world preparation first- have three months of normal expenses in the bank, or better split between 3-4 banks, and a couple weeks worth in cash stashed away where it is easy to get but hard to spend. Some people like pickle jars full of cash buried under the roses, but I keep my crisis roll wrapped in plastic, and frozen in the middle of a block of ice. If I have to bug out, it goes in the cooler with some meds and food, and a hammer- sometimes you need the money NOW. The money in the bank is there in case a job gets lost or someone gets hurt. Say.... drops a knife, and nails her foot to the floor with it.

As an investment, they are more concentrated, volume-wise, than cash. That is the reason I have some silver and a smaller some of gold. Coinage, rounds, small bars, all good, so is simple jewelry. But if you ever have to sell it, you'll never get anywhere near what you paid for it. If you need to sell it RIGHT NOW, forget it, you'll get a lot less.

But if you are needing it as "escape money", gold and silver have a couple of things going for them. Everyone knows what they are. And avarice gets very excited when it sees gold and silver. Things like large link bracelets and chains that you can pry apart with your fingers (or multi), simple rings and earrings, etc. Jems, less so- before cubic zirconium, small diamonds had fast trade value, but a tenth caret CZ looks a LOT like a diamond of the same size and cut. Thats a cultural based call. Watches are good, to, but we have to be talking Rolex, Breitling, Cartiers, etc. But cash is king.

[N_N_R]

@Mr.Whippy,

Yeah, land is good, too. Just for me.. you can't grab your land and go anywhere, it's just there, stays there That's also a factor for me. haha.


@Captain,

The prices here go up because of your dollar  I guess we/whoever buys gold in USD and since the USD went up, so did the prices here.

Yeah, when I watch YT vids, it really looks easy to sell there. I'm not sure how easy it is to sell HERE. The most likely buyers would be the same company you bought it from and a couple of banks. And of course pawn houses. So you must usually wait for the price to go high very much for you to be able to sell it at the price you bought it or minimal loss (what you said, actually). I'm not a lot into this and don't know a lot yet, but I think that buy buying silver and trying to sell it later here, you'll lose more...  For example, if you buy 1oz silver (50 bgn) and you sell it back immediately, they'll buy it for (30 bgn), that's almost 50% loss. While with gold, despite the higher prices, if you buy something and sell it immediately, your loss will be a loooot less.



@ironraven,

Well, yeah, I do have some cash around for emergencies and such. I don't understand the people who spend everything they have on metals. It's so much harder, not to say impossible, to sell them or exchange them for goods immediately.

And they do stay in my BOB, lol. It's nowhere near a real BOB, I couldn't bring myself to creating one. But because the metals are a really small amount now, I put it there. So if SHTF, it goes with me, hopefully.

This ... breaking jewellery into parts for smaller cash sounds interesting. I'd never occurred to me. In fact, a few months ago I got rid of some old borken jewellery and exchanged it for a small gold coin.





My general idea is ... value preserving over time. When I counted that only since I was born (within 27 years) our currency has changed four or five times.... and they've been speaking about introducing the Euro soon.. so that's kinda scary. In most cases this didn't affect people much, but during one of the processes, when I was still a little kid, whatever caused hyperinflation and lots of people went poor. My mother has told me that at that time dollars were accepted as a legal payment method here, lol. So that's what I want to avoid maybe: having 1000 of whatever currency one day and it turning into 10 of the same currency on the next

[dks]

As we talked about in another thread the exchange rate of the dollar and the Pound affects a lot of things.

So, if the price of gold in US dollars goes down by 10% BUT the US dollar value goes up, compared to the Euro by 12% if you are getting paid in/using Euros gold will be more expensive to you (and any gold you have will be more valuable).

If you are using or are getting paid in US dollars then Gold becomes cheaper for you  (and any gold you have becomes less valuable)

That is why a lot of products that were traditionally marked in equivalent US dollars (eBay) appear cheaper, in dollars, but if you convert the dollar to your own currency they will be the same or more expensive (You can use this trick/technique to fool people into thinking that you have lowered your prices)

The price of gold, in general seems to be getting lower or staying about the same (depending on which currency you use).

The mad rise in prices of the past decade has stopped, at least for now.

However, any limited resource will go up in value as time passes and less of it is available, BUT there is always the chance that more will be found affecting the supply or that a replacement will be found affecting the demand. These will affect the price.

Finally, bear in mind that the prices of all commodities (and currencies) are not really operating in a free market economy (which really exists in theory only) but are regulated and controlled by various international organisations/companies.

[ironraven]

This ... breaking jewellery into parts for smaller cash sounds interesting. I'd never occurred to me. In fact, a few months ago I got rid of some old borken jewellery and exchanged it for a small gold coin.

My grandfather wore a bracelet of large, soft gold link s(forget the grade, but soft enough he could pry out one if needed) , along with a good watch, cash and a couple of gold and silver bars (about the size of a postage stamp). He had a story about needing it when trying to get out of Egypt in 1952.

[Mr. Whippy]

This ... breaking jewellery into parts for smaller cash sounds interesting. I'd never occurred to me. In fact, a few months ago I got rid of some old borken jewellery and exchanged it for a small gold coin.

My grandfather wore a bracelet of large, soft gold link s(forget the grade, but soft enough he could pry out one if needed) , along with a good watch, cash and a couple of gold and silver bars (about the size of a postage stamp). He had a story about needing it when trying to get out of Egypt in 1952.

This really illustrates the real reason many families had "The family jewelry"  It was a convenient and useful way of carrying wealth.  Much easier to quickly move on with several gold chains than a trunk full of cash, valuable paintings or some such.  With so much political turmoil, and relatively insecure banking institutions, it was the best you could do.

[N_N_R]

That's my tiny collection of silver so far And I guess I'll keep buying coins, but just as infrequently as I do now. They're really pretty, but I bet I must wait for decades to see any profit if any at all. It's different with gold somehow. It's far more liquid than silver here, I think.

These coins' numismatic value may make them more expensive in future, not their silver content. Moreover, you're almost forbidden to open the capsules and enjoy the coins fully because of microscopic scratches you may make... or the silver reacting to the air and changing its colour. It seems this isn't a problem in the USA, though - I see so many videos on YT where people touch their coins, the coins come in tubes without any fear of scratching them.

So, yeah, they're pretty, but I do hope I won't have to rely on THEM for money one day

[N_N_R]

My grandfather wore a bracelet of large, soft gold link s(forget the grade, but soft enough he could pry out one if needed) , along with a good watch, cash and a couple of gold and silver bars (about the size of a postage stamp). He had a story about needing it when trying to get out of Egypt in 1952.

That's interesting. You mean he ALWAYS had that much gold on him? The bars... depending on the weight, the size you're describing sounds like 5-10gr bars and that's a lot for the gold ones, I think.

[dks]

   http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=10862&lang=en

Help a fellow EU country by buying some coins NNR 

[N_N_R]

We'll see


I was contemplating those zombie versions of popular silver coins, actually

[wjruth]

Unless you store your coins in an airtight container within another container that has low humidity, your coins will tone. The airtite capsules you have are a misnomer. They help protect the coin but they are not air tight. The videos you see of people touching their coins- they are hurting the value. They are treating it as bullion and plan to sell it as such. If it is a collector coin then any marks will detract and cause lower prices. 
Your buffalo coin is a bullion coin - unless graded the American silver eagle is also a bullion coin. The maples if kept in mint state could be worth something but check them within 3 years and you will most likely see milk spots on them.
The kookaburra coins do have collector value as they change each year. Pandas are the same - they change each year. Philharmonic is more of a bullion coin but tends to sell for a few dollars over spot. Look at eBay and other online places to sell when you finally do as it sounds like it would be hard in your country.

 

[N_N_R]

Unless you store your coins in an airtight container within another container that has low humidity, your coins will tone. The airtite capsules you have are a misnomer. They help protect the coin but they are not air tight. The videos you see of people touching their coins- they are hurting the value. They are treating it as bullion and plan to sell it as such. If it is a collector coin then any marks will detract and cause lower prices. 
Your buffalo coin is a bullion coin - unless graded the American silver eagle is also a bullion coin. The maples if kept in mint state could be worth something but check them within 3 years and you will most likely see milk spots on them.
The kookaburra coins do have collector value as they change each year. Pandas are the same - they change each year. Philharmonic is more of a bullion coin but tends to sell for a few dollars over spot. Look at eBay and other online places to sell when you finally do as it sounds like it would be hard in your country.

I've wondered about the "air" issue myself, because these capsules aren't vacuum or anything, but that's what Tavex sell them in and tell me not to open them every time I buy one.

Well, I'm not sure what I plan on selling these as, actually. I think bullion, too, though right now the selling price is too low. And since the only company to buy them back is the said Tavex, I'd better do what they say  I'm not sure how much "regular" buyers are interested in buying silver.

I think I can touch the Buffalo as much as I want - a friend bought it for me from the CZ Republic and the coin has visible scratches and such. It had been taken out of a tube, the friend said.

I think one of my Maples already has these darn milk spots 

As for the kookaburras ... right now at that company I talk about, the kook from 2012 sells for 2.5 more than it was worth two years ago. However, if you were to SELL your 2012 kook to the company, they'd buy it for just as little as the other regular current silver coins. That's annoying. So, for potential profit, one has to seek buyers elsewhere, on eBay or some local such sites - it's kinda hard in my country, indeed. That's why I prefer buying gold when/if I can - gold's always .. gold.

[SAK Guy]

We used to travel with a little wallet of gold and silver coins....after the fire, had to sell the gold.  It was a "get out of a jam on the road" option back when as a young couple we didn't have a lot of credit cards/cash for emergencies/repairs. I had the coins before we were married.

These days, I keep some silver in it...mostly for nostalgia I guess.

[wjruth]

NNR - each coin that is in a capsule, didn't start out that way. The pandas ship from the factory in a capsule but the ASEs and Maples came in tubes. 20 and 25 respectively. Someone then pulled them out of the tube and placed them in the capsule.
The ASE is placed in a tube, then the tube is placed in a box - 500 coins per box. The US mint sells these to the big distributors at spot price plus $2. The big distributors then sell to smaller dealers. Each level gets a cut. In the US you can find them being sold at small shops for $5 over spot. You seem to be getting them for $10 over spot.
I can sell to a local place but to get the most money I need to sell online. The brick and mortar store has more overhead so they pay less.
I too carry silver coins with me. Always a silver dime and a silver dollar - sometimes more but at least that.

[N_N_R]

@SAKGUY,

That's another interesting story. So you did carry gold & silver with you all the time/often? And eventually you managed to save some of your fortune when that fire happened? That's a good example of how gold & silver come to use even in modern times. Thanks for sharing. I hope you weren't badly hurt or something ((



@wjruth,

Thanks for sharing! Yeah, I've seen those monster boxes on YT, but it never occurred to me that those we get HERE actually come from these tubes So they can't really be 100% protected from scratches and stuff.


You guys now make me think if I shouldn't carry some silver on me, too..... hm. Just again, who'd accept that from me here, not sure. Jewellery shops and pawn houses would take the gold at some minimal price, but for the silver.. they'd buy a coin for its weight. Silver goes about 0.5 BGN for gram here. That would make less than 16 BGN for a coin which I paid about 40- 50 BGN originally for

[SAK Guy]

@SAKGUY,

That's another interesting story. So you did carry gold & silver with you all the time/often? And eventually you managed to save some of your fortune when that fire happened? That's a good example of how gold & silver come to use even in modern times. Thanks for sharing. I hope you weren't badly hurt or something ((

-snip-

Carried that wallet traveling out of town but carried a Morgan silver dollar daily for about 25 years, mostly as a good luck piece.

It was my parent's farm that burned, but my coins were out in West Texas with me. All the silver/gold I had given Mom/Dad over the years (probably $50.00 face and a gold Panda gifted for their 50th anniversary) was lost in the fire. I cashed in my 2 gold eagles and replaced some things lost in the fire (we had tons of stuff stored there).

[wjruth]

That's a rippoff - by my quick math, silver value should be 27 BGN. I'm guessing they pay less because there is less buyers for it. I will say, storing assets like PMs, requires you to have an exit plan and know your market. You might be better off having a 14k gold ring that you can sell than a few silver coins.
Unless you are in a bind, never take less than spot for a silver coin. It is already assayed and backed by a company. The weight and purity is stamped on many of them. If in a bind, all bets are off because your then dealing with local market prices. 

[N_N_R]

Haha, yeah, I also had the idea that a golden ring + a pawn shop would do me a bigger favor. Plus, a ring is "stored" on a different location, so to speak, than a coin which would go in my wallet. So... in case of theft or something, I'd still hooooopefully have the ring.


I just counted.. I've managed to get allllmost 2oz of gold.


Imagine one day nobody wants gold or silver, though  Nobody wants it = it has no value = 

[Mr. Whippy]

Haha, yeah, I also had the idea that a golden ring + a pawn shop would do me a bigger favor. Plus, a ring is "stored" on a different location, so to speak, than a coin which would go in my wallet. So... in case of theft or something, I'd still hooooopefully have the ring.


I just counted.. I've managed to get allllmost 2oz of gold.


Imagine one day nobody wants gold or silver, though  Nobody wants it = it has no value = 

Hasn't happened in the last 4-5000 years.  I suspect you're pretty safe. 

[N_N_R]

LOL

I've been wondering... WHY is it needed/wanted. Because it's used in industry? Because it's just a limited amount? Because it's shiny and pretty? Or because everyone else wants it? Or all of these?
WHO in the first place thought of using gold for trade?

[Mr. Whippy]

Scarcity, beauty, workability.  There have been other substances that were once highly valuable that we would scratch our heads about now. (Salt, amber, glass, aluminum)

Gold remains valuable in part from its history, part from its rarity, part for its beauty (that doesn't tarnish or corrode) and part because of its industrial uses (as a conductor).

Other elements are actually more valuable now (Platinum, rare earths etc).

[ironraven]

Why is wanted? Becuase it is. It is rare, and it is pretty, and gold and silver both have value, but we are culturally programmed to "oohhh shiney- me want!" when we see it. Platinum, worth more, but most people don't know what it looks like. You say "platinum" and they go huh, what?

Honestly, I can think of a lot of scenarios where gold isn't worth that much to me. But they are all pretty heavy TEOTWAKI ones. For that case, I want to horde wire goods- pins, needles, nails, fish hooks.

That's interesting. You mean he ALWAYS had that much gold on him? The bars... depending on the weight, the size you're describing sounds like 5-10gr bars and that's a lot for the gold ones, I think.

The bracelet and watch came off when he was working in the shop or with a chain saw, that kind of thing, but then they were in his pockets. The little golds and silvers, he had them rubber cemented to a thin sheet of plastic, and stuck in his wallet, at least after I was born that was how he carried them. Not sure how he did it before then. I think they were 2 or 2.5g gold bars, there was a couple of those, and a couple more the same size silver.

Keep in mind, this was at gold prices 30 years ago, and he'd been collecting it since the end of WWII.

[N_N_R]

Honestly, I can think of a lot of scenarios where gold isn't worth that much to me. But they are all pretty heavy TEOTWAKI ones. For that case, I want to horde wire goods- pins, needles, nails, fish hooks.



The bracelet and watch came off when he was working in the shop or with a chain saw, that kind of thing, but then they were in his pockets. The little golds and silvers, he had them rubber cemented to a thin sheet of plastic, and stuck in his wallet, at least after I was born that was how he carried them. Not sure how he did it before then. I think they were 2 or 2.5g gold bars, there was a couple of those, and a couple more the same size silver.

Keep in mind, this was at gold prices 30 years ago, and he'd been collecting it since the end of WWII.

Well, yeah, if the end of the world comes... I doubt anyone would be interested in metals and money Well, still, I think some would, some who'd hope to get away with everything and live.. after the end of the world if there's where to live then, lol.

That with the tiny gold & silver bars is interesting and a good idea. It could maybe serve as additional "insurance" like the gold ring(s) we mentioned above.


The fact he carried gold AND small amounts of silver made me wonder about something different last night:

- What do you think about junk silver? It's supposed to have .. less pure silver in it, so to speak and therefore be cheaper in value. Do you think it's useful to have it in case all currencies have gone down, for example, you need to buy something small.. and instead of handing in a whole 1oz bullion coin to exchange for some low-value goods, you give them a piece of junk silver... i.e. can junk silver act as today's cents? 

And lastly I wanna rant about our metals companies here - they are TWO. The second one which I havne't bought yet from doesn't have a big variety, in fact, they have just... less than ten coins available, I think, but they at least ship to the rest of hte country. The second one which I buy from regularly.. they do NOT ship to the rest of the country using regular mail/courier.  You have to go to their office and buy whatever you want to buy. If you do insist on having some gold or silver delivered to you, they use those bullet-proof bank trucks and the costs are extremely high. So, if I want to buy a 1oz of silver for 50lv, I have to pay 50lv for the delivery as well. If not, I have to go to their office and buy my coin. (Which is what usually happens, I live just a couple of hours away, thank God)

[David]

NNR having some gold and silver is wise. It is real money. Fiat currency is worth the paper its written on. There is to much debt associated with it. As the Keynesians are about to find out you can not print your way out a debt.

[N_N_R]

@David,

Yeah, I hear this all over the place. What's strange here, in my country, is that our trust in the dollar is never-dying. I mean, when you say "dollar" here, everyone goes nuts. It's considered to be the most stable thing in the world. Having dollars is considered wise and so on. So it was very strange for me when I started watching these gold & silver investing/stacking vids on YT. At times I think if it isn't just some bank-created and... self-inflicted paranoia to make people buy gold & give money to the banks when they/the banks/ need to pay off some huge amounts of money

On the other hand, yeah, I also wonder.. WHO decided that paper money was worth something? What is it in its essence? Just a piece of paper. Why is it worth so much they say it is...

What do you think about the recent high rates of the dollar, btw? What if that's also someone's attempt to make people do or don't do something finance-wise? I mean, the dollar was pretty low since 2001 and kept the low rates for a long time. And now it suddenly went up within a couple of months or so Who? How?