Whats Going on in Greece?

[N_N_R]

They just mentioned on the news that our BGN will be used/accepted in Greece ?! Or that's just the usual trick to attract the viewers'  attention?

[N_N_R]

I'm afraid our fellows will dig themselves deeper in crap... :-/

[kkokkolis]

It is difficult to describe the situation. I'll just say that all Earth is beautiful (or we are made to find her so) but I could never live without the aegean breeze, the warmth of our sun, the whiteness of our marbles and limestones, the holy water of our mountains. But Greece is one thing and Greeks another. Our country is one thing and our state another. As European culture is one thing and European capital is another.

Switzerland was one of the poorest countries in Europe for most of its long history. Not because Swiss were lazy, silly or bad people, we know now they aren't but the exact opposite. Think about that.

[Whoey]

I really get the impression from what I've seen here in Spain that the media both in and outside Greece has been twisting the whole referendum. A lot of scaremongering going on.

Without getting too political, congrats to the people of Greece who made their own decision in spite of the bullying from the EU.

I've always thought that you need to spend money to make money, and so much austerity cannot help rebuild an economy, only drive it further into the ground.

[AimlessWanderer]

I'm torn...

On the one hand, a country asking it's people for their opinion before committing them to an arduous and specific path. The people come together and democratically reject a situation they feel will do more harm than good. A peaceful stand against a perceived oppression by an outside force.

On the other hand....

A needs to borrow money from B. B is very concerned about A's ability to repay. B says I'll lend you the money if you do X, Y and Z to give me a bit more confidence we'll get our beer vouchers back. A says NO! Why should B loan the money if it doesn't think it'll get repaid. A needs to come up with a bloody good proposal to B to convince them they're not going to piss it up against the wall, and come back in 6 months and start the saga all over again.

If I was Greece, I wouldn't want to accept the demands

If I was a lender, I wouldn't want to lend a penny more without some concrete assurances, and a committed plan that has me convinced and confident.

I'm no economist, and I REALLY hope somebody a lot cleverer than me can find a way forward that's actually works for all parties.

[N_N_R]

I'm torn...

On the one hand, a country asking it's people for their opinion before committing them to an arduous and specific path.

I was thinking the same. Although that's democracy and so on, I'd feel like the politicians have made ME take the responsibility for whatever crap follows so that they stay clean from the whole situation.

Thinking the way you do, if I was Greece.... well, if I was Greece, I'd probably want more loans, because the people won't agree with having their pensions and everything reduced. But if I, as me, was Greece (lol), I'd run away from everyone who offers loans.

It's really hard to believe that in this modern society someone will let a country collapse, so I still think they'll find a way to get out of the mess.

[Corwyn]

Aaaand the referendum said NO.
Still shocking, even if not unexpected....
This is Marketing 101 - "Do you want extra taxes and decreased paychecks or do you want freedom and to stick it to those silly Europeans ow so high and mighty?" What would you say if you were asked this? This is why government decisions aren't taken via referendum, this is why you need strong responsible leadership, to take charge and adopt measures, even if painful and unpopular... pure democracy is a myth or an illusion... it only works on Pacific Islands where bananas and coconuts fall from the sky and tourists bring in themselves and start throwing money at you... Greece is only a small part carefree tropical paradise...

I tried to contain myself, but we all went through this, Italy, Spain and especially Portugal and Ireland... I'm not even going to start on Eastern Europe which can barely breathe... we had some awful years, pensions were cut in half, unemployment was everywhere, taxes doubled, but we fought on, endured and stuff is starting to get better. Taxes are becoming smaller, pensions returned to normal, my company went from 75 to 300 employees in the last year (and we work in B2B with EU customers).

Now with this whole Greece thing, the RON is dropping like crazy, so is the Euro and I can see prices increasing daily...

Just saying, Greece has triple our paychecks and double our pensions and yet the GDP per capita is comparable ...

We might be poor, but our Public Debt is 37% of GDP while Greece's is a whopping 161%. This is just unsustainable...

Sorry for the bitter rant and I'll stop posting in this thread, just finding this unfair, we all suffered and had to pull the belts in the last few years... (I'm not even going to touch on the WW2 debt and "loaned" state treasury to our friends from the North-East that was never returned and our parents worked overtime and Sundays for 25 years to pay the debt and fill in the void...)

Once again, I love Greece and really like the Greek people but I really hate the decisions their leaders are taking and I think they will drag us all back in the crisis... 

[kkokkolis]

Just saying, Greece has triple our paychecks and double our pensions and yet the GDP per capita is comparable ...

That's true. But most politicians don't dare to take decisions based on real data, they usually say what people like to hear. If they don't they won't be elected a second time and others that flatter the public will in their place. An inherent problem of democracy, it was the same in the ancient times and they had terms for it. Demagogues, Sycophants etc.

[Whoey]

Funny: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146

three years ago and we're still no further ahead... 

[Pacu]

this and russia wants the baltic states back while over in the Ukraine...

Things are headed south guys and gals.  I'll stop right there.

[tosh]

I don't really understand what's gone on here. I've read various snipits on the web and obviously the national news here in the UK.....but  I always get the feeling I'm being told what they want me to believe.
I don't trust the media, they love stuff like this....stories of misery brings £££ signs to their eyes!!
But I really do feel for ordinary Greek citizens, to have the rest of the world lecturing on how you should live when in reality they can't do a bloody thing about it. If like Britain its almost as if the media sways public opinion which in turn dictates the governments we end up with.

[AimlessWanderer]

^^^ I agree! The media is responsible for a lot of what is wrong in the world! Freedom of speech is fine when dealing with discerning people, but combined with the gullibility of the masses, it's a very dangerous premise. They ought to be more accountable, and hysteria creating journalists should be subject to a public wedgieing for whipping up public smurfstorm frenzies just for viewing figures and hopes of promotion

The general populous of Greece and the wider European community are the ones who will ultimately be picking up the pieces for the mess that ensues.

[tosh]

The general populous of Greece and the wider European community are the ones who will ultimately be picking up the pieces for the mess that ensues.

Exactly my thoughts too Al
 

[firiki]

Too tired to talk about every point that has come up so far, you'll have to wait till tomorrow. 

Regarding media, here's a compilation of things that aired this past week in TV. The troubles of live broadcast 

Image speaks for itself from minute 2:44 to 4:08. It all started when the happy young man in the pink shirt realised the senior citizen wasn't going to start complaining about Syriza government and the 120€/week withdraw limit after all... The next reporter was out of luck too 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=289&v=_xVn23RMTCI

Needless to say a prosecutor has stepped in to investigate copious violations of the law concerning media during elections as well as intentional fearmongering. Lots of lawsuits from citizens too.

[N_N_R]

They keep saying the Greek fellows are allowed to withdraw only 60 EUR daily from the ATMs. So, I'm wondering... how much money is this for Greek? If that were in BG, most people would be able to withdraw their salaries in like 4-5 days this way. But how much is 60 EUR per day for the average Greek person? Is it a serious limitation or the banks just did it so that people don't drain the bank system at once?

[enki_ck]

They keep saying the Greek fellows are allowed to withdraw only 60 EUR daily from the ATMs. So, I'm wondering... how much money is this for Greek? If that were in BG, most people would be able to withdraw their salaries in like 4-5 days this way. But how much is 60 EUR per day for the average Greek person? Is it a serious limitation or the banks just did it so that people don't drain the bank system at once?

Yup, same here. For an average Croatian worker, he could withdraw his whole paycheck within a week.

[AimlessWanderer]

Possibly due at least in part to what happened here. In the financial crisis of 2007/8 it was media hype (yes, those irresponsible turds again) that led to a mass run on a bank called Northern Rock. The bank was indeed struggling, but the hysteria that the media created ensured there was no coming back and depositer's money was at serious risk. The bank was nationalised in an attempt to create some stability, but that cost the country (the humble taxpayers) a humongous amount of money that we could well have done without paying. If that happened over there at the current time, the situation could quickly get a lot worse.

[kkokkolis]

They keep saying the Greek fellows are allowed to withdraw only 60 EUR daily from the ATMs. So, I'm wondering... how much money is this for Greek? If that were in BG, most people would be able to withdraw their salaries in like 4-5 days this way. But how much is 60 EUR per day for the average Greek person? Is it a serious limitation or the banks just did it so that people don't drain the bank system at once?

In fact we can withdraw just 50 euros each day, because we run out  of 20 euros bills.
Now, what it  means?
An unemployed (over 1.500.000 people, 25-28% of Greek workforce) earn 0 euros a week, 0 euros a month. They still have to pay property taxes for their house though, and for eating of course. Usually their parents pay for those things from their pension.
In private sector a young worker might gain anything from 200 euros a month to  600 euros a month if he is very lucky. That's 4-12 days.
A usual pension goes between 500 and 1200 euros (the earlier you got it the better). That's 10 to 24 visits.
A psychologist in  my public organisation, 15 years of experience, earns around 1000 euros. That's 20 visits.
I earn the maximum public salary as a doctor of 20 years of experience. That's around 1750 euros a month, that's 35 visits.
Bread costs 60-90 cents, cofee 1-2 euros, rent 300 euros for the smallest hole in Athens, monthly bus and metro card 30 euros (1.20 euros per ticket), a  souvlaki 2 euros (something like a hot dog  for Greeks), cigarettes 4 euros  per package (it is usual to smoke 2 packs each day, that's 240 euros per month!!!), a meal in a  restaurant (not the  most expensive) 15-25 euros, around 7-10 euros in a Fast Food, a Pizza 13 euros, a cinema ticket 6-7 euros, a typical X'mas toy for children 50 euros, my daughter studying in Syros 1000 euros a month, the loan for her house another 1100 euros a month (for 20 years), gas for my car 120 euros a month etc.
With my salary and the taxes and prices I would be a very poor doctor.
Fortunatelly (?) I can work another 6-7 hours per day in private practice (doing pro bono too) where I roughy triple my earnings and my wife (general director in a private school) earns a double salary. With those we live with dignity but not luxury, working more than my European colleagues who earn more in their one salary (Germany 3800-7500 euros, Belgium 6250 to 16600 euros, Romania is the lowest in Europe though, 400 to 750 euros, you are right Corwyn).
If we live with dignity with 5 salaries for a family of 4, you can imagine the typical family of the unemployed where one to two persons 20-40 live with their old parents and by their pension (in many families only the father has a pension) which is 1/2 to 2/3 of one salary.
Most of our politicians and many other people of the high society have hundrends of thousands or millions of euros in Swiss, German and Austrian banks though. They are the ones who shape our financial policies.
Some of them received dirty money directly from European factories and brands to buy Siemens nationwide telecommunications networks, Leopard armored vehicles, Type 209 and faulty Type 214 submarines, Reihnmetal, Krauss Maffei and STN Atlas weapons, Eurofighters (in the future), MEKO frigates and stuff. Can you spot the similarity between those pieces of equipment?

[tosh]

First off - thank you so much kkokkolis for replying to NNR's query with such honesty and clarity. By reading your post I have learnt more than all the other media stories we've been bombarded with over the past few weeks .

I'm fully aware that MT'o discourages any political talk, but given the complexity of what we are witnessing in Greece maybe they'll allow this thread to continue.

May I ask what your own views are on the current situation and what are the real consequences to Greece (and indeed the rest of europe) if Greece were forced out of the euro?
Where did Greece go wrong in your eyes??

I now sense the real despair of what Greek citizens must be feeling right now. I'm guessing there must be an almost  unbelievable sense of isolation amongst the Greek population with regards to her fellow European neighbours.

[kkokkolis]

First, we stopped most agricultural production (tobacco, cotton etc) under EU directives. Then most of our navy (1st in the world in the recent past) is now under numerous flags, coordinated by Londoner ship owners of Greek origin. Finally our significant light industry (textiles, plastics, clothes, cigarettes, cement, electric appliences etc) died under Chinese pressure and changes in EU policies.
Then we failed to use money EU gave us to turn to industrial production. Two main reasons: inexperience and the uncompetitive salaries (very strong syndicates) given the Chinese and third world alternatives.
Much of the money were used for comforts and luxuries Greeks were not used to until about the Millennium, from air-conditioning to Porsche Cayennes.
Not much production means that imports are more (much much much more) than exports. Our euros went to other countries with Germany the winner by a wide margin. You can see more Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen cars in Greece than Germany itself, and most of our weapons, electric appliances, luxury items are German too. The rest are Japanese or Chinese, never local.
Then there is a fixation of greek people with science. We have more doctors, lawyers, engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc than almost any country in EU per 100000 citizens. So our workers are Albanians, Bulgarians, Russians and recently Asians. They aren't Greek citizens (our fault) so they sent their euros to their families back home. They spend just the minimum here. Most Greek scientists work in education and paraeducation so they don't do research in Greece (with the exception of those that migrate in EU and US) and no innovation is born here. Many are unemployed, or get the degree for prestige and then work in the family businesses (most of which are now bankrupt and closed).
Things change. GB was once the most industrial country on Earth. Now it isn't but you now have a high grade academic education. Most wealthy Greeks (and people from all over the world) study in England and Scotland. Your ability to change keeps you alive.
There are many other factors but these are the main in my humble opinion. Without tourism we would be dead long ago.
PS: Did I mention a huge public sector and corrupt politicians that get bribes from EU companies and the fall of the Soviet block that made us suddenly neighbors to many Balcan states with ultra cheap workforce (exploited by most EU states)? And that in the modern world the smallest the state the worst its position? And the US Ponzi schemes that produce imagined money and collapsed some years ago with a domino effect, hitting the weakest economies first (guess who)? And that there is an observable difference between European North and South whith Portugal but even the big nations of Italy (a G7!) and Spain having similar financial problems with us? We just fell first.

[powernoodle]

to have the rest of the world lecturing on how you should live

I hope not to offend.  But chronic spending in excess of revenue always - in every circumstance - results in a bad outcome. Until this reality is fully embraced, the pain will continue.  The current situation was both foreseeable and avoidable, and bad consequences are necessary as they are the only thing that alter future behavior.  It seems that no one is willing to accept the undeniable reality that spending in excess of revenue always leads to pain.

Everyone seems to cast blame for this situation on lenders or the media or elsewhere, but are not the Greek citizenry ultimately responsible for the actions of those they elect?  Perhaps this sounds harsh, and I would be very pleased to be wrong in this circumstance, but this appears the be at the very center of the current crisis.  From my remote perspective it appears that the Greek people wanted a high level of social spending that the revenue could not support, and that is what they got.  I know it is not that simple, but ultimately one cannot evade the principle that uncontrolled spending is never sustainable.

We each have our own biases, and mine is a strong dislike (hatred, really) of both personal and institutional debt. But I will never fear the lender, because I have chosen to have no debt.  It is possible that I am not the sharpest multitool in the drawer, but if I can live within my means, our respective countries could do so as well.  They just don't want to, and therein is the root of the problem.

Mr. kkokkolis, I empathize greatly with your situation, and appreciate the candor of your posts. 

[firiki]

Without tourism we would be dead long ago.

And tourism our creditors want(ed) to terminate with 23% VAT when other competitive countries like Turkey, Cyprus, Malta, Portugal, Spain have a VAT of 10% or less on those services. Can you smell something vindictive here?

Where to begin synthesising from

Oh, yeah, bailing private banks out with taxpayer money, that's a good starting point. SoSmurfpillsm for the rich, if you like. I agree with most of what kkokkolis said and there's a whole lot more to add if things are to be put into perspective. Whether this can be done conformingly to forum's rules rests to be proved. I know I don't know everything and that I'm neither an economist nor a political or social scientist, that I'm just a very concerned citizen and father of one. I'll do my best to keep it real and sober and I apologise for the inevitable long post aforehand.

Of course, I won't pretend Greek governments or the Greek people are not to blame, too, myself included -though I don't think I've ever usurped public funds nor avoided paying my taxes. What I have always avoided was debts. I'm happy with just a few simple things, really, so Mr. "We ate the money togethar" Pangalos can skip it. Lots of things need to be said to give some context here. I'll start by criticising those who criticised the referendum arguing that "simple people shouldn't be voting for such complex matters". I heard that more than once. Right, let's just hand the power over to technocrats and bureaucrats and stick our heads in the sand, let's dismiss any and every obligation that comes with civic rights. Such views ultimately belittle the importance of democracy, state sovereignty, self-determination of countries and individuals.

Whatever happens in the end, the Greeks have sent a clear message that they do not wish for their country to be a banana republic despite what spin doctors might think of it. To me, the stance several EU officials took during this whole referendum thing was no surprise but rather a disgrace to the values they pretend to embrace. Talk about bullying. A look at the things they said after the referendum was announced reveals that there's something rotten here to those who can stand to see it. There are certain people that should be brought before a disciplinary board to answer for acting way out of jurisdiction. Most media didn't call them out for that, as they haven't been telling the whole story either. There's a reason why mass media are called the fourth power, after all. Do notice that despite coverage by the media there's a disturbing lack of transparency through publicity (or glasnost, if you will) in the negotiations taking place. I mean, I may very well not like what I mostly see during our Parliament's sessions but I like the fact I can watch them on TV, unlike those negotiations.

Without getting into details right now, there's quite a fascinating, historically speaking, process (or attempt) of sideways European political consolidation through the Eurozone's banking system, the ECB and the ESM taking place as we speak. The fun part is there's provision for hair-cuts on deposits over 100.000€ in order for each State to save its banks, exactly à la cypriote, Cyprus style. This is one self-destructive process we're talking about and one could claim that Greece, who's debt wasn't so unsustainable at 130% when all this started, was used as a pretext to overcome Maastricht Treaty restrictions imposed by the "principle of perfectly separable debts".

http://www.esm.europa.eu/index.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Stability_Mechanism

I'm afraid I'll have to continue some other time. Good night MT.O 

[Philby]

Refreshing to see a shock outbreak of democracy in what is an otherwise autocratic and bureaucratic European system. Go Greece!

[Lichtbote]

Refreshing to see a shock outbreak of democracy in what is an otherwise autocratic and bureaucratic European system. Go Greece!

I agree wholeheartly. It´s great if they are making their voting really based on their own believings, accepting all and every hardship that may follow (and not hoping for help secretly) .

But on the other hand i believe that everyone who makes such bold statements, needs to handle all coming consequences by it´s own. If making such statements, and after that asking for help .... the former statements are just a hollow fake.

[magentus]

Refreshing to see a shock outbreak of democracy in what is an otherwise autocratic and bureaucratic European system. Go Greece!

+1 We need some of that Greek courage here - just got back from a well attended and lively anti austerity march here after todays appalling budget. seat belts on Brits - it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

[Philby]

Remember Iceland? They had a referendum; result= two fingers to the banks! we're not paying it back.
As Greece is in the Euro it prevents them going bankrupt, keep getting more and more liquidity with harsher and harsher conditions, people paying the interest on ever increasing loans with blood. Best result for Greece is Euro exit and bankruptcy, start again on your own terms!
'You've got nothing to lose but your chains'

[magentus]

Remember Iceland? They had a referendum; result= two fingers to the banks! we're not paying it back.
As Greece is in the Euro it prevents them going bankrupt, keep getting more and more liquidity with harsher and harsher conditions, people paying the interest on ever increasing loans with blood. Best result for Greece is Euro exit and bankruptcy, start again on your own terms!
'You've got nothing to lose but your chains'

+1 Lots of OXI signs in my city today!

[powernoodle]

Okay, guys.  What is so courageous about 1) spending vastly more than you can afford, 2) not paying your creditors, and 3) and going bankrupt?  I'm not trying to be a wise guy.  Just trying to understand.

[firiki]

Okay, guys.  What is so courageous about 1) spending vastly more than you can afford, 2) not paying your creditors, and 3) and going bankrupt?  I'm not trying to be a wise guy.  Just trying to understand.

Let's not generalise. One should examine every case both separately and in comparison to other similar cases. There's a difference between a homicide in cold blood and a homicide in self-defence, right?

I'm not done trying to explain how things got this far, the way I understand it at least. Perhaps by the end of my narration you'll have your answer. Maybe you'll still prefer some other narration. As I said in another post, thruth is a matter of perspective. Here's a bit of thruth I dislike but cannot deny, one that I think suits what we're discussing:

Homo homini lupus est.

[firiki]

First, let's take a look at some facts as they appeared in the news.

IMF admits mistakes regarding Greek debt sustainability and growth projection:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/05/imf-underestimated-damage-austerity-would-do-to-greece
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-22791248
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-imf-admits-serious-mistakes-on-greek-bailout-a-904093.html

Despite all that, the recipe remained the same.


Then, this letter from Greek Parliament's President, Zoe Konstantopoulou, to Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament.

Page 2. par. 1, reasons why a great deal of this debt should not be paid back.