Off-Brand Challenge - ETHEREALICER - Böker City Tool / SWIZA D04

[dks]

You lot will not be popular in a spyderco forum 

[Etherealicer]

You lot will not be popular in a spyderco forum 

Big difference, Spyderco has the hole close to the pivot, where food is less likely to get stuck. The Spidy-hole is also excellent for OHO.
The holes on the Swiza also help with opening, but on the blade I find it a nuisance.
With the Swiza its a matter of what is more important to you:
- Easy opening thanks to the holes
- Difficult cleaning because dirt gets stuck in the hole.
Another problem with the hole is, that it needs to stick out of the frame to be accessible resulting in an uncomfortable grip.


Thanks Syph/Al for clearing that up

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks Syph/Al for clearing that up

 

Glad we could be of assistance 

[Etherealicer]

Thanks Syph/Al for clearing that up

 

Glad we could be of assistance 

You know how confusing it would be if you two had said the exact opposite?

[AimlessWanderer]

As if we'd do such a thing 

[Etherealicer]

As if we'd do such a thing 

I'm not saying you would do such a thing, I'm only saying it would be rather confusing if you did

[AimlessWanderer]

Well, that's that cleared up too then 

We're on a roll 

[firiki]

I like the pumpkin

The SWIZA not at all.

[WWW]

I think the way Vic does it, the blade is stamped out, and then followed up with another press op which simultaneously produces the primary blade angle and the nail nick. If that's the case, it will add less than two seconds to the processing time. Machining, or even laser cutting the hole, would take notably longer. Even if I'm wrong, and it's a separate operation, punching a nail nick is a very quick process

 My thought as well. A few blades later and you have paid for tooling (sure it will wear and stuff but still). Not to mention the recess and the engraving on the Swiza.

[jcfiguet]

3 weeks ago I receive my first swiza knives :

The D01

The D02

The D03

And the D04

My first impressions:

- they are "fresh" because of their color, a red-light near red-raspberry, because of the purity of their line, because of their fluid design, etc. FYI, design was provided by the company 'Estragon' in Zurich: http://www.estragon.ch/home/swiza-swiss-knife/

- they have a good grip with good scales.

- they are simply beautiful and they are "New Swiss way of life". These first 4 models are basic knives, like at the beginning of the Swiss army knife early 1900s. I suppose the range will grow with time... 


It's difficult to compare a Swiza knife with other Swiss Army knives : new brand, new style, new concepts.

My opinion is the line of a Swiza knife is very similar to the french knife "Le Thiers" (the last knife).

Since 3 weeks I use a D03 like an EDC to test it in several situations...

First, It's a slim knife, I often forget I have a knife in my pocket. No keyring and no toothpick, but it's not a problem for me : I never used any keyring on a knife and I'm sure toothpicks are not very hygienics...
Swiza scales are soft, like Wenger soft-touch scales and it's very confortable, and Swiza scales cover external liners, like wenger scales...
All liners are stainless steel, not aluminium... So it's a strong quality !

The main blade : 75 mm, just largest than a main blade of a soldier knife. This blade holds its cutting edge for a long time (longer than a lot of other Swiss Army Knives).  Note all Swiza main blades are numbered for a best tracking in the time. All main blades are also "auto lock". The hole in the blade does not clog with cheese or mushy food. At worst, a simple cleaning with warm water would suffice to unblock. Everyone washes his knife before and after eating, isn't it? 

The awl : It is formidable! It cuts better than the awl of an alox, it is shorter, wider and thinner in thickness. Attention, it is intended for materials such as leather or soft woods, not for hardwoods (risk of breakage). You can also use it like a small clip point blade to scrape with the tip, it is sharp as a doctor-blade. Caution, you must use it by turning to the left, unlike the other awls 

The can opener / small screwdriver : With this can opener, mo risk to make damages to the scales! It is long, wide and very sharp!

Cap-opener/screwdriver: the small hook provided to position itself as one of the "slots" of a capsule is more pronounced/curled, so it seems more efficient, but I have not yet tested. But what a pity : the screwdriver is not "safety lock"...

The corkscrew: It can only be better than all corkscrew on Swiss Army Knives... More long, 5 coils, slightly tapered... Tested by sommeliers... 

I have a good experience of Swiss Army knives, I have more than 600 knives of all ages, I am a collector... I can only welcome the birth of a new Swiss Cutler who brings on the market a new concept of Swiss Army knives. 

[AimlessWanderer]

Nice write up 

Thank you for your views on them 

[jcfiguet]

Nice write up 

Thank you for your views on them 

I hope my english is correct and can be understood !

[Grathr]

Nice write up.

And your english is just fine

[jcfiguet]

And now, for collectors, the first limited an numbered series for 2015 of SWIZA knives !

[Etherealicer]

It is formidable! It cuts better than the awl of an alox, it is shorter, wider and thinner in thickness. Attention, it is intended for materials such as leather or soft woods, not for hardwoods (risk of breakage). You can also use it like a small clip point blade to scrape with the tip, it is sharp as a doctor-blade. Caution, you must use it by turning to the left, unlike the other awls

Yup, used mine on on something hard and now the tip is blunt
Similar to the small flat and the Phillips, the tools showed lots of wear after the first use.

The hole in the blade does not clog with cheese or mushy food. At worst, a simple cleaning with warm water would suffice to unblock. Everyone washes his knife before and after eating, isn't it?

Well I use my SAK on food when I'm on the move and usually just wipe the blade. After cutting a pumpkin I found gunk in the hole even after putting the knife in the dish-washer.

Cap-opener/screwdriver: the small hook provided to position itself as one of the "slots" of a capsule is more pronounced/curled, so it seems more efficient, but I have not yet tested. But what a pity : the screwdriver is not "safety lock"...

Will be curious to see how you get along with that, both dks and I found
"It worked, but it is not as good as the established Swiss gang"
to quote dks.

How do you find grip comfort when using the blade on the 2-layers model? I

[dks]

I have been quoted on the internet   


 

[Corwyn]

I have been quoted on the internet   


 

[dks]

 

[jcfiguet]

It is formidable! It cuts better than the awl of an alox, it is shorter, wider and thinner in thickness. Attention, it is intended for materials such as leather or soft woods, not for hardwoods (risk of breakage). You can also use it like a small clip point blade to scrape with the tip, it is sharp as a doctor-blade. Caution, you must use it by turning to the left, unlike the other awls

Yup, used mine on on something hard and now the tip is blunt
Similar to the small flat and the Phillips, the tools showed lots of wear after the first use.

The hole in the blade does not clog with cheese or mushy food. At worst, a simple cleaning with warm water would suffice to unblock. Everyone washes his knife before and after eating, isn't it?

Well I use my SAK on food when I'm on the move and usually just wipe the blade. After cutting a pumpkin I found gunk in the hole even after putting the knife in the dish-washer.

Cap-opener/screwdriver: the small hook provided to position itself as one of the "slots" of a capsule is more pronounced/curled, so it seems more efficient, but I have not yet tested. But what a pity : the screwdriver is not "safety lock"...

Will be curious to see how you get along with that, both dks and I found
"It worked, but it is not as good as the established Swiss gang"
to quote dks.

How do you find grip comfort when using the blade on the 2-layers model? I

Do you like anything on Swiza knives ?

Yes ? Specify which one !

[Etherealicer]

It is formidable! It cuts better than the awl of an alox, it is shorter, wider and thinner in thickness. Attention, it is intended for materials such as leather or soft woods, not for hardwoods (risk of breakage). You can also use it like a small clip point blade to scrape with the tip, it is sharp as a doctor-blade. Caution, you must use it by turning to the left, unlike the other awls

Yup, used mine on on something hard and now the tip is blunt
Similar to the small flat and the Phillips, the tools showed lots of wear after the first use.

The hole in the blade does not clog with cheese or mushy food. At worst, a simple cleaning with warm water would suffice to unblock. Everyone washes his knife before and after eating, isn't it?

Well I use my SAK on food when I'm on the move and usually just wipe the blade. After cutting a pumpkin I found gunk in the hole even after putting the knife in the dish-washer.

Cap-opener/screwdriver: the small hook provided to position itself as one of the "slots" of a capsule is more pronounced/curled, so it seems more efficient, but I have not yet tested. But what a pity : the screwdriver is not "safety lock"...

Will be curious to see how you get along with that, both dks and I found
"It worked, but it is not as good as the established Swiss gang"
to quote dks.

How do you find grip comfort when using the blade on the 2-layers model? I

Do you like anything on Swiza knives ?

Yes ? Specify which one !

The scales have a great grip and feel. I also that the lock button is integrated for easy exchange (they seem durable but I doubt they will make 20 years of use, also it seems that putting pressure on the scales deforms them, all no problem because you can easy exchange them).
I like that it is locking and finally I like the tweezers, IMO those are better than the Wenger or Victorinox tweezers).
The large flat has very good locking and I cannot say anything bad about it (it held up fine in my use). Though I wish they would have made it as thick/large as the can opener.

I think there is potential but they use the space poorly (the tools are sticking out of the scales way too much / See the graphic I made above). I understand that this makes it easier to open but at the same time it also makes it very uncomfortable to grip. I'm also very curious how they will make a 3rd layer, without that tool sticking out even more. I can't help to think that it was designed for looks and not for use.

[firiki]

... ... I can't help to think that it was designed for looks and not for use.

Nailed it.

Unfortunately, I get the same impression of the vast majority of knives and tools I see lately.

[AimlessWanderer]

... ... I can't help to think that it was designed for looks and not for use.

Nailed it.

Unfortunately, I get the same impression of the vast majority of knives and tools I see lately.

Agreed!

[sawman]

That is also the impression I got from the reviews. It looks cool but functionally it is lacking

[jcfiguet]

The scales have a great grip and feel. I also that the lock button is integrated for easy exchange (they seem durable but I doubt they will make 20 years of use, also it seems that putting pressure on the scales deforms them, all no problem because you can easy exchange them).

I agree ! And I think these Swiza knives are more "urban" than other SAKs, and not made for 20 years of use. Other knives, other philosophy !

I like that it is locking and finally I like the tweezers, IMO those are better than the Wenger or Victorinox tweezers).

Yes, tweezers are longer and better than others

The large flat has very good locking and I cannot say anything bad about it (it held up fine in my use). Though I wish they would have made it as thick/large as the can opener.

The flat screwdriver is not so thick as the can opener (2.5 mm), it's a pity for the general aestheticism of this layer. And the flat screwdriver is not "auto-lock" like last Wenger screwdrivers... But this screwdriver works...

I think there is potential but they use the space poorly (the tools are sticking out of the scales way too much / See the graphic I made above).

Yes, it's true, but... Is that so important for this king of knife ?
It's also possible that space is planned for other tools in the future. Nobody knows.

I understand that this makes it easier to open but at the same time it also makes it very uncomfortable to grip. I'm also very curious how they will make a 3rd layer, without that tool sticking out even more. I can't help to think that it was designed for looks and not for use.

Like you, I'am also very curious how they will make a 3rd layer ! I suppose it will be a surprise in next months.
Perhaps because I have large hands, this knife is not at all uncomfortable to grip for me, really I have no problem with that.
I'm not sure this knife was designed only for looks, I think it's like in Bauhaus Art : a knife designed for looks and for use in urban environment.

[jcfiguet]

That is also the impression I got from the reviews. It looks cool but functionally it is lacking

Reviews are only reviews.

The best way to make a real personal opinion, is to try and to test SWIZA knives...

[Etherealicer]

And the flat screwdriver is not "auto-lock" like last Wenger screwdrivers... But this screwdriver works...

That patent belongs to Victorinox

I think there is potential but they use the space poorly (the tools are sticking out of the scales way too much / See the graphic I made above).

Yes, it's true, but... Is that so important for this kind of knife?

Well, empty space adds bulk, simple as that. It is why I love the Spirit so much, incredible use of space.
I also think that this is the true difficulty when designing a SAK/MT...
Optimal use of space @ optimal ergonomics and ultimately also looking good.

I agree ! And I think these Swiza knives are more "urban" than other SAKs, and not made for 20 years of use. Other knives, other philosophy !
[...]
I'm not sure this knife was designed only for looks, I think it's like in Bauhaus Art : a knife designed for looks and for use in urban environment.

I don't think the Swiza is designed for Urban use. For that it looks too much like a plastic toy and lacks elegance is not cool enough. It also lacks scissors and nail-file (something I think would find more use in an urban setting than a can-opener, especially because urban folks are health crazy and only eat organic food).

If you want a modern urban multi-function knife get a Böker City-Tool. It also has some short-comings but makes an elegant pocket companion with a KICK-ASS blade and stylish G10 scales.

[jcfiguet]

And the flat screwdriver is not "auto-lock" like last Wenger screwdrivers... But this screwdriver works...

That patent belongs to Victorinox

I'm not sure : this is a Wenger patent of 1982, so after 20 years (in Europe) every body can use it :
http://www.jcfiguet.com/CDM/images/doc/Wenger/Brevets/1982_Verrouillage_de_tournevis/12-08-1982%20CH657805.pdf

[...]

I don't think the Swiza is designed for Urban use. For that it looks too much like a plastic toy and lacks elegance is not cool enough. It also lacks scissors and nail-file (something I think would find more use in an urban setting than a can-opener, especially because urban folks are health crazy and only eat organic food).

If you want a modern urban multi-function knife get a Böker City-Tool. It also has some short-comings but makes an elegant pocket companion with a KICK-ASS blade and stylish G10 scales.

The Böker City-Tool is nice but I have 2 problems with it :
- 1°) the look is too classic for me, but it is a question of personal appreciation.
- 2°) like all new Böker knives since 10 years or more (not vintage Böker knives), these knives are made in China. Nothing wrong with quality or else, but made in China, not in Germany... Like lot of french knives Laguiole ! Otherwise it will be impossible to make a Böker City-Tool at less of €30.00...

[Etherealicer]

The Böker City-Tool is nice but I have 2 problems with it :
- 1°) the look is too classic for me, but it is a question of personal appreciation.
- 2°) like all new Böker knives since 10 years or more (not vintage Böker knives), these knives are made in China. Nothing wrong with quality or else, but made in China, not in Germany... Like lot of french knives Laguiole ! Otherwise it will be impossible to make a Böker City-Tool at less of €30.00...

The City Tool is proof that China can make good quality tools/knifes .

Honestly, the blade is the greatest thing about the City Tool but the whole package is not yet there (For me, if they replace that horrible rescue blade with either an awl or a nail-file it would be a good tool and if they improve the scissors it would be great.). Still, with that blade it offers something worth considering (The G10 scales and pocket clip are a boni) and I think that sets it apart from the Swiza. I think the Swiza despite its boastful claim of re-inventing the SAK, offers nothing that a Vic or Wenger doesn't and those two come in more varieties and proven quality.

[SAK Guy]

I just really dislike the hubris of Swiza. Allow me to cut through some of the marketing spin on their website and in the press release.... (Yes, I used to work in Advertising/Marketing and know how to put a pinstripe on a turd and sell it)

"A legend reborn" ("Although the biggest knife manufacturer in the world is unaware the "legend" had died, we're gonna say this")

"Swiza reinvents the Swiss Knife"  ("Swiza takes aim at the urban yuppy segment of the Victorinox market share")

"Revolutionary redesign of the legendary Swiss Knife." ("Realized without infringing on existing Swiss patents, a modernized version of a multi-function knife similar to other "redesigned" urban knives is here")

"The knife is available in four Jura-inspired colors: Bright Red, Husky Eye Blue, Snow White and Graphit Black." ("We are so cool, hip and modern, even our made up color names are aimed  attractive to our targeted consumer base")

Swiza is untried, untested and claims a linage and reputation that is unearned IMO.

That's hubris.

[jcfiguet]

The Böker City-Tool is nice but I have 2 problems with it :
- 1°) the look is too classic for me, but it is a question of personal appreciation.
- 2°) like all new Böker knives since 10 years or more (not vintage Böker knives), these knives are made in China. Nothing wrong with quality or else, but made in China, not in Germany... Like lot of french knives Laguiole ! Otherwise it will be impossible to make a Böker City-Tool at less of €30.00...

The City Tool is proof that China can make good quality tools/knifes .

Honestly, the blade is the greatest thing about the City Tool but the whole package is not yet there (For me, if they replace that horrible rescue blade with either an awl or a nail-file it would be a good tool and if they improve the scissors it would be great.). Still, with that blade it offers something worth considering (The G10 scales and pocket clip are a boni) and I think that sets it apart from the Swiza. I think the Swiza despite its boastful claim of re-inventing the SAK, offers nothing that a Vic or Wenger doesn't and those two come in more varieties and proven quality.

Yes of course China can make good quality... But I prefere Chinese knives made in China than German knives made in China...
I have some vintage Böker (50 years old or more) real "made in Solingen", it's like knives from Nogent (Mongin)... The emotion given when you get it in your hand can't be explained.
Swiss Knives are Swiss Knives, the story is different, Ibach and Delémont are not similar to Solingen, Thiers or Toledo. So for Swiss Knives or Swiss Army Knives, the philosophy is not the same.

Why saying "Swiza boastful claim of re-inventing the SAK" ?
It's not "boastful" it is just simply the truth : When you begin from a white paper and a pencil to create a new Swiss knife, you can claim to have reinvented the SAK!
You are Swiss citizen, you might know that canton of Jura is proud and rebel ! And those are legitimate sentiments, not 'boastful".