Swiza D04 - thoughts after 10 days of use

[Etherealicer]

So, XELLENT is a spirits maker? I tought is was a vodka.

Xellent is a branch of a larger Swiss Spirit maker that makes high class Spirits (currently vodka & gin). I think they started with the vodka and due to its success expanded with the gin. The current market is good for high quality, stylish, Swiss products. So, I would not be surprised if the line up grew even more.

Good Gin there ... but that's not a SAK is it ? Shurely Shome Mishtake ? 

Sure it is... Shwiss AlKohol...

[cody6268]

What caught my attention was the closing remark of
"....you are better off buying a Spartan/Pioneer/Soldier at half the price."

considering that a spartan doesn't really cost that much these days.

Well, half the price is rough estimate because prices are not global. Here I can get a soldier in new condition for 3 - 5$ which is a tenth of the Swiza, a new Spartan probably costs less than 1/3th (its been a while since I bought a regular Spartan).

Where in Switzerland?   I'm sort of planning on heading there, and might as well pick up a handful of them at that price! 

[firiki]

So, XELLENT is a spirits maker? I tought is was a vodka.

Xellent is a branch of a larger Swiss Spirit maker that makes high class Spirits (currently vodka & gin). I think they started with the vodka and due to its success expanded with the gin. The current market is good for high quality, stylish, Swiss products. So, I would not be surprised if the line up grew even more.

Gotcha. I might give them a try. I've only had a white wine in a Swiss-looking bottle, labelled Forza Svizzera in three more languages that a Swiss girl had brought along. I don't like white wine and that one was no exception. 

[Etherealicer]

What caught my attention was the closing remark of
"....you are better off buying a Spartan/Pioneer/Soldier at half the price."

considering that a spartan doesn't really cost that much these days.

Well, half the price is rough estimate because prices are not global. Here I can get a soldier in new condition for 3 - 5$ which is a tenth of the Swiza, a new Spartan probably costs less than 1/3th (its been a while since I bought a regular Spartan).

Where in Switzerland?   I'm sort of planning on heading there, and might as well pick up a handful of them at that price!

Spartans you get everywhere including Migros. Soldiers you get at flea-markets and thrift stores. SAKs are a pretty common sight on flea-markets, your best chance of getting a good price is a booth with other military articles but not a whole lot of SAKs.

Prices are about the same everywhere in Switzerland with few exceptions. Of course the cheapest over-all is the factory store in Ibach (10% on everything, and if you are lucky something good is on sale). If you actually go there, check out the Alox models, they still have some with the marlin spike. And if you are looking for a limited edition (wood-scaled / Damascus blade) ask the ladies there is always a chance that one came back from a dealer (and you will get it at 10% discount). They also sell scales and individual parts (bit-wrenches,CT-bits etc.)

If you are looking for something special (like the Wenger Vallotton Saugy Life Series) ask me, I might know a shop that still has them for sale

[Steinar]

Hi-jacking this thread back to Swiza stuff, although of course not really the original topic. (There has to be a limit to keeping on topic...)

Grathr graciously organized getting a couple of the aforementioned knives into Norway, and today I got my grubby hands on mine. Some quick impressions playing around with it follow.

I opted for the D03 in red. To those who feel those knives don't “deserve” to be red, I humbly disagree. The shade is totally different from those used by Victorinox anyway.

I wanted to like this knife, because it seems like a happy, little knife when you hold it. I expected to hate the blade lock, but the mechanism is easily inspectable, and if the soft scale somehow should break or become stiff (i.e. any obvious failure mode), you can still operate it. No lateral blade play, although it has the same behavior as 111 mm as it is more a slip-joint secured by a liner lock than a conventional liner lock. This causes, at least on my knife, it to be possible to push the blade a little closed when the knife is open before the lock stops it. That isn't something that annoys me, but I have noticed some people dislike it.

As others have noted, the spring on the can opener is softer than on any of the other tools in the knife. It's still stiff enough to be “OK”, but I would have preferred stiffer lock-up personally. I found it interesting that, as opposed to big brother Vic, they have a ground finish to parts of the tools, like the screwdrivers, instead of having everything polished. Time will tell whether this affects the stainless quality, as they have opted for a steel with a lot of chromium and not that much carbon. They have implied 440A, but if this is correct, I wonder if they have hardened the tools lower than the blade as they scratch ridiculously easily. (As posted by others.)

What really keeps it from occupying a place in my EDC rotation is easy to see from any photo: The “banana shape” of the open knife. This makes the knife similar to knives with designs from the world of small game hunting. For a knife design, the edge can effectively dip down, stay in line with, or move up and away from the center line of the handle. Many hunting knives dip down, but all-round knives should form a straight line (consider a Mora or a Vic) for optimal flexibility and the highest possible number of ways to hold and use the knife. The Swiza chooses to become better at some things and worse at others. What it becomes worse at, like whittling, is far more important to me than what it becomes better at. So whether the choice was for looks or use, it is not for me (as a general EDC knife).

The way the tools protrude a lot from the handle links up to the previous paragraph: It makes some ways of holding the knife uncomfortable, but for what I guess is the default way of holding the design, with the thumb resting on the tang, it is just fine.

Summary for first impressions: Very few brands get so much correct with their first offering in this price range, but I from my point of view, the basic frame has some problems if it seeks to be a true all-rounder.

[Grathr]

Hi-jacking this thread back to Swiza stuff, although of course not really the original topic. (There has to be a limit to keeping on topic...)

Grathr graciously organized getting a couple of the aforementioned knives into Norway, and today I got my grubby hands on mine. Some quick impressions playing around with it follow.

I opted for the D03 in red. To those who feel those knives don't “deserve” to be red, I humbly disagree. The shade is totally different from those used by Victorinox anyway.

I wanted to like this knife, because it seems like a happy, little knife when you hold it. I expected to hate the blade lock, but the mechanism is easily inspectable, and if the soft scale somehow should break or become stiff (i.e. any obvious failure mode), you can still operate it. No lateral blade play, although it has the same behavior as 111 mm as it is more a slip-joint secured by a liner lock than a conventional liner lock. This causes, at least on my knife, it to be possible to push the blade a little closed when the knife is open before the lock stops it. That isn't something that annoys me, but I have noticed some people dislike it.

As others have noted, the spring on the can opener is softer than on any of the other tools in the knife. It's still stiff enough to be “OK”, but I would have preferred stiffer lock-up personally. I found it interesting that, as opposed to big brother Vic, they have a ground finish to parts of the tools, like the screwdrivers, instead of having everything polished. Time will tell whether this affects the stainless quality, as they have opted for a steel with a lot of chromium and not that much carbon. They have implied 440A, but if this is correct, I wonder if they have hardened the tools lower than the blade as they scratch ridiculously easily. (As posted by others.)

What really keeps it from occupying a place in my EDC rotation is easy to see from any photo: The “banana shape” of the open knife. This makes the knife similar to knives with designs from the world of small game hunting. For a knife design, the edge can effectively dip down, stay in line with, or move up and away from the center line of the handle. Many hunting knives dip down, but all-round knives should form a straight line (consider a Mora or a Vic) for optimal flexibility and the highest possible number of ways to hold and use the knife. The Swiza chooses to become better at some things and worse at others. What it becomes worse at, like whittling, is far more important to me than what it becomes better at. So whether the choice was for looks or use, it is not for me (as a general EDC knife).

The way the tools protrude a lot from the handle links up to the previous paragraph: It makes some ways of holding the knife uncomfortable, but for what I guess is the default way of holding the design, with the thumb resting on the tang, it is just fine.

Summary for first impressions: Very few brands get so much correct with their first offering in this price range, but I from my point of view, the basic frame has some problems if it seeks to be a true all-rounder.

I got to play a little with your D04 before sending it to you, and I was not a fan of the openers, the weak spring and the way they stick out of the handle.
IMO the D02 is a better executed tool.

[Steinar]

I somehow get the feeling the D01/02 was the knife they really designed, and then they started adding tools. Also, there is something a little “off” with how the tools are shaped, there no small details or acute angles. I guess it's a consequence of their manufacturing process.

Perhaps the designer team were stereotypical Francophones who do not drink beer.

[Etherealicer]

Last Friday afternoon, I sent pictures of mine to Swiza to inquire about warranty (I don't have the receipt anymore). Anyway, got a mail today, that I can send mine in and they will replace it. So far the warranty gets a thumb up from me

I also have a broken computer case I used for the following test.
When you tighten the screws hard the thread gets destroyed and the screw will turn freely. It takes some force but not that much and can easily be achieved with the large flat in straight position (no need to go to 90° for extra torque).
Anyway, both large flat on the Pioneer and on the Swiza destroyed the screw without any harm to either tool. So, the only tool I really like on the Swiza still holds his ground.

I then repeated the test with the small flat.


Needless to say, the screws were of cheap quality and suffered a bit too


No sign of wear on the Pioneer, but the Swizas small flat is gone. It has both a chip and is deformed.

[AimlessWanderer]

Sending it in because of the bent drivers, or something else?

[Etherealicer]

Sending it in because of the bent drivers, or something else?

Dent in the scales (it is supposed to be dish-washer safe), abraded small flat and Phillips. They want to analyze the damage, it sounded like the are eager to improve their product, so that is good.

[Grathr]

Sending it in because of the bent drivers, or something else?

Dent in the scales (it is supposed to be dish-washer safe), abraded small flat and Phillips. They want to analyze the damage, it sounded like the are eager to improve their product, so that is good.

That sounds promising.
If they stand by their tools and warranty and improve the next generations, the Swizas can become very good tools.

[Etherealicer]

Testing Spring strength (semi-scientific)

Materials
One cheap analog kitchen scale rated up to 3kg

Method
Holding the tool horizontally, I pressed the scale down with the tip of the implement, reading out what the highest pressure is that can be achieved. Readout was pretty easy and probably precise to 10/20g. Technically, that won't measure spring strength but spring strength in proportion to tool length (that is also what we are interested in). Measure was repeated several times to get a more representative result (slipping of was quite common )
As I personally feel that gramm values are of no interest here I decided to normalize the result, setting the value I got for the Pioneer cap-lifter (1200 g) to 1.

Result

		Tool				Comment
0.54		D04		Phillips
0.58		Swiza		Can opener
0.63		CT29		Cork-screw
0.63		CT29		Can opener
1.00		Pioneer		Can opener / Cap lifter		Unsurprisingly can opener and cap lifter on the Pioneer got the same rating
1.17		CT29		Bit-Holder		Despite its length it has very good retention
1.21		D04		Cap lifter		Yay, in the category Swiza Tools the large flat remains champion
1.29		CT29		Cap lifter

Discussion
We can easy see that the can-opener on the Swiza has a much weaker retention than the can-opener on the Pioneer. It is however only a slight difference to the can-opener on the CT. Personally, I would have thought the difference can-opener Swiza vs. CT would be larger. This makes me believe that to some parts the geometry of the tool works against the Swiza at least for me (I'm a lot more comfortable with the CT's can-opener when using it as a screw-driver). It is well possible that others will have less of a problem.

Conclusion
I still think it was an oversight to make the back-spring on the can-opener this weak but the perceived weakness is at least partially individual (how well you cope with the Swizas curved design I presume).

[Etherealicer]

Sending it in because of the bent drivers, or something else?

Dent in the scales (it is supposed to be dish-washer safe), abraded small flat and Phillips. They want to analyze the damage, it sounded like the are eager to improve their product, so that is good.

That sounds promising.
If they stand by their tools and warranty and improve the next generations, the Swizas can become very good tools.

Well, there are two kinds of issues (for me).

Tool quality: I'm really disappointed in the small flat, that should be rather easy remedied.
Ergonomics: The curved frame / sticking out tools were purposefully designed like this to easy open the tools. However, it makes it uncomfortable to grip the tool. I don't think this can be solved without re-designing / re-thinking the frame.

[Grathr]

Sending it in because of the bent drivers, or something else?

Dent in the scales (it is supposed to be dish-washer safe), abraded small flat and Phillips. They want to analyze the damage, it sounded like the are eager to improve their product, so that is good.

That sounds promising.
If they stand by their tools and warranty and improve the next generations, the Swizas can become very good tools.

Well, there are two kinds of issues (for me).

Tool quality: I'm really disappointed in the small flat, that should be rather easy remedied.
Ergonomics: The curved frame / sticking out tools were purposefully designed like this to easy open the tools. However, it makes it uncomfortable to grip the tool. I don't think this can be solved without re-designing / re-thinking the frame.

I see that. If I where them, I think I would have redesigned the frame and tools to increase comfort on the 2+ layer tools.

[red_rider_1979]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

[firiki]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

[sLaughterMed]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

If that is the case I may have to consider one of these as well, but not until they add decent scissors.

BTW, Swiza, if you are reading this (I sure hope so) I want Wenger Ranger style scissors, or at least Wenger 85mm style. Please dont do the easily broken Vic sytle spring.
Sincerely,
sLaughterMed

[SAK Guy]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

If that is the case I may have to consider one of these as well, but not until they add decent scissors.

BTW, Swiza, if you are reading this (I sure hope so) I want Wenger Ranger style scissors, or at least Wenger 85mm style. Please dont do the easily broken Vic sytle spring.
Sincerely,
sLaughterMed

Those Wenger back spring scissors may be a patented item belonging to Vic (since they are still on the Delemont Line).

[sLaughterMed]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

If that is the case I may have to consider one of these as well, but not until they add decent scissors.

BTW, Swiza, if you are reading this (I sure hope so) I want Wenger Ranger style scissors, or at least Wenger 85mm style. Please dont do the easily broken Vic sytle spring.
Sincerely,
sLaughterMed

Those Wenger back spring scissors may be a patented item belonging to Vic (since they are still on the Delemont Line).

Patent laws are tricky. It would be Swiss patent law in this case? Is theirs a "use it or lose it" type deal, or is it more like in the US, where it becomes public domain after 20 some years from filing?

[SAK Guy]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

If that is the case I may have to consider one of these as well, but not until they add decent scissors.

BTW, Swiza, if you are reading this (I sure hope so) I want Wenger Ranger style scissors, or at least Wenger 85mm style. Please dont do the easily broken Vic sytle spring.
Sincerely,
sLaughterMed

Those Wenger back spring scissors may be a patented item belonging to Vic (since they are still on the Delemont Line).

Patent laws are tricky. It would be Swiss patent law in this case? Is theirs a "use it or lose it" type deal, or is it more like in the US, where it becomes public domain after 20 some years from filing?

Maybe one of our Swiss members can answer that but since Vic is using both those scissor types in current models, they probably own the patent.   

http://www.swissarmy.com/us/en/Products/Swiss-Army-Knives/Medium-Pocket-Knives/EvoGrip-S18/p/2.4913.SC8

www.swissarmy.com/us/en/Products/Swiss-Army-Knives/Large-Pocket-Knives/RangerGrip-71-Gardener/p/0.9713.C

[Steinar]

I'm not Swiss, but I can use DuckDuckGo:

From the website of Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property:

Owning a patent gives you the exclusive right to prevent others from commercially using your invention for up to 20 years. During this period you can prohibit others from using it - i.e., producing, using, selling or importing - without your permission.

I think these things are pretty much standardized through international treaties for most of the OECD.

[SAK Guy]

I'm not Swiss, but I can use DuckDuckGo:

From the website of Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property:

Owning a patent gives you the exclusive right to prevent others from commercially using your invention for up to 20 years. During this period you can prohibit others from using it - i.e., producing, using, selling or importing - without your permission.

I think these things are pretty much standardized through international treaties for most of the OECD.

Thank you Steinar!!! 

[sLaughterMed]

I'm not Swiss, but I can use DuckDuckGo:

From the website of Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property:

Owning a patent gives you the exclusive right to prevent others from commercially using your invention for up to 20 years. During this period you can prohibit others from using it - i.e., producing, using, selling or importing - without your permission.

I think these things are pretty much standardized through international treaties for most of the OECD.

Well if thats the case, the small wenger scissors are up for grabs (inrroduced in 1972 according to SAK wiki) not sure on the large ones, but its pretty close to being up soon as the original ranger series was introduced in the 90's. Make it happen Swiza!

[smiller43147]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

If that is the case I may have to consider one of these as well, but not until they add decent scissors.

BTW, Swiza, if you are reading this (I sure hope so) I want Wenger Ranger style scissors, or at least Wenger 85mm style. Please dont do the easily broken Vic sytle spring.
Sincerely,
sLaughterMed

Scissors a must.  Don't care which sty;e, but, if Wenger style: smooth not serrated and no bounce up and down.

[AimlessWanderer]

I shouldn't think there'd be too much problem modelling scissors on the Wenger style, after all, the Leatherman Juice scissors have used essentially the same approach

[sLaughterMed]

I shouldn't think there'd be too much problem modelling scissors on the Wenger style, after all, the Leatherman Juice scissors have used essentially the same approach

I guess the question there is do Americans have to honor Swiss patents?

[jerseydevil]

Hi,

there is a hole/gap in the spring for the can opener. What do you
mean any chance to use this (keyring or anything else)?

Hi, I just received my D04 and I'm curious about this hole/gap as well. Anyone knows what it is for? I'm kinda hoping that it is for the option of adding on a keyring

It looks too much like a hidden feature to me so I doubt that's the case.

Maybe it was meant for toothpick storage

If that is the case I may have to consider one of these as well, but not until they add decent scissors.

BTW, Swiza, if you are reading this (I sure hope so) I want Wenger Ranger style scissors, or at least Wenger 85mm style. Please dont do the easily broken Vic sytle spring.
Sincerely,
sLaughterMed

Scissors a must.  Don't care which sty;e, but, if Wenger style: smooth not serrated and no bounce up and down.

The up and down movement is an inherant trait to Wenger-style scissors.  Really no way around it.  I don't mind it, once you're used to it you don't notice.

[Etherealicer]

@Patent Law
Actually, for a patent to work it must/can be registered in different places.
National -  Works for the country you register your product in (lots of countries recognize other nations copyright law, so it is also effective in those countries).
International - Recognized in all countries that have signed the international copyright contract (making individual contracts between countries obsolete). As far as I recall both the USA and China (and probably more) have not signed those contracts that is why most companies have an US patent AND an international one.

As for the scissors in particular, Böker uses the exact same style on their scissors, so either that style is not patetented, or the patent has run out.

[Syph007]

Last Friday afternoon, I sent pictures of mine to Swiza to inquire about warranty (I don't have the receipt anymore). Anyway, got a mail today, that I can send mine in and they will replace it. So far the warranty gets a thumb up from me

I also have a broken computer case I used for the following test.
When you tighten the screws hard the thread gets destroyed and the screw will turn freely. It takes some force but not that much and can easily be achieved with the large flat in straight position (no need to go to 90° for extra torque).
Anyway, both large flat on the Pioneer and on the Swiza destroyed the screw without any harm to either tool. So, the only tool I really like on the Swiza still holds his ground.

I then repeated the test with the small flat.

(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)
Needless to say, the screws were of cheap quality and suffered a bit too

(Image removed from quote.)
No sign of wear on the Pioneer, but the Swizas small flat is gone. It has both a chip and is deformed.

Vic parts will bend too, but it takes quite alot of force.

Id love to take apart a swiza and do a destructive test on the parts, and compare contrast with vic parts.   

[SAK Guy]

Last Friday afternoon, I sent pictures of mine to Swiza to inquire about warranty (I don't have the receipt anymore). Anyway, got a mail today, that I can send mine in and they will replace it. So far the warranty gets a thumb up from me

I also have a broken computer case I used for the following test.
When you tighten the screws hard the thread gets destroyed and the screw will turn freely. It takes some force but not that much and can easily be achieved with the large flat in straight position (no need to go to 90° for extra torque).
Anyway, both large flat on the Pioneer and on the Swiza destroyed the screw without any harm to either tool. So, the only tool I really like on the Swiza still holds his ground.

I then repeated the test with the small flat.

(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)
Needless to say, the screws were of cheap quality and suffered a bit too

(Image removed from quote.)
No sign of wear on the Pioneer, but the Swizas small flat is gone. It has both a chip and is deformed.

Vic parts will bend too, but it takes quite alot of force.

Id love to take apart a swiza and do a destructive test on the parts, and compare contrast with vic parts.   

With pics!!!!!