Scandi Steel

[Outback in Idaho]

  Of the Scandi knives & steel, which knives have the better steel for edge retention and longevity?

  Read somewhere last night that laminated or carbon was the best, then advice from others are saying that Helle doesn't have the best steel and that lesser priced knives actually fare better. So am curious what you experts have to say rather than read up on them online.

  Had started off reading Scandinavian Knives: The Legendary Knives From the North last night whilst fighting sleep.

  Had noticed also noticed some Scandi knifes go through the roof in prices commercially, then to get one hand made almost doubles if not triples from those. personally, I cannot fathom how a small knife can cost upwards or over $500. Seriously, it's only a piece of steel that's ground, sharpened, stuck in a plain stock. Now if the blade had intricate work, there were layers on the quillon and other parts, and the handle was painstakingly crafted to look more than just a piece of shaped wood ... then maybe. But to charge $660+ of a simple piece of steel in a basically shaped handle I don't see it. Hawken doesn't look much different from a Helle, though he thinks his blades are worth the price of a new Glock.
  Now if someone was making a sword I can see the prices going up as the blade does more than just cut, it had to fend off attacks, be flexible or rigid, and have the durability that comes through days or weeks of forging. 4.5" feet of steel vs. a 4" piece shouldn't cost the same.

  So, am looking for enlightenment. 

[Poncho65]

That is actually something I would be interested in hearing as well I like a lot of the Scandi fixed blades out there but could never bring myself to pay an extreme amount on any blade 

[styx]

OK, if we're talking customs then the price mostly comes from the manufacturing cost and popularity, rather than any practicality. I've gotten a few custom manufacturers to admit that Bushlore style knives were basically selling fantasy since it didn't take much to produce the distinctive grind.

Now edge retention has 3 components - steel, heat treat and edge angle or edge thickness (trigonometry at work). Take any piece of steel you want (lawnmower blades work excellent), do a hillbilly heat treat on it and it will work. But it might not be optimal. In the same manner I remember a friend of mine field dressing a deer with a piece of sharpened tin because he forgot his knife but had a carbide sharpener in his kit. So Helle, as recently stated in the Mora thread, could have just messed up a bit. Hell I believe there's a video of a TOPS knife that got bent because it left the manufacturing process without the heat treat. Sadly it happens.
As a side note, I got a ban on another forum for calling out bs on one review where the guy took a bushlore style knife, chucked it in a tree a couple of times and deduced that it's junk because there was edge damage. In IT we say that 90% of the problems come from the nut that connects the keyboard to the chair, and this goes along those lines.

As far as forging goes - apparently it's tough. Haven't done it so can't testify as to the difficulty. While it allows some shaping options, I'm not sure how much of a metallurgical impact it can have, but again it's fantasy. The guy who spent 500+ hours playing any kind of game with swords will know that a forged sword is the best thing ever.
Just think about all knives that are marketed a certain way. A Hinderer won't make you impervious to flames, any of the special forces dubbed knives won't make you as competent as those guys in the tactical shenanigans, a bushlore won't make you Ray Mears and so on and on. But it's great to believe and in some ways that confidence does help - just look at Ka-bar and the blood groove. Only person I know to have used one where that could have mattered said that in that moment it made him more confident it'll work properly, only later to realize that any knife (with the adequate blade length) would have done the exact same thing since it's just a tool.

[Dean51]

  Of the Scandi knives & steel, which knives have the better steel for edge retention and longevity?

  Read somewhere last night that laminated or carbon was the best, then advice from others are saying that Helle doesn't have the best steel and that lesser priced knives actually fare better. So am curious what you experts have to say rather than read up on them online.

  Had started off reading Scandinavian Knives: The Legendary Knives From the North last night whilst fighting sleep.

I read your link and looked up some of the makers, 12c27 was mentioned as well as triple laminated stainless.
12c27 is about like 420hc.
No telling what triple laminated stainless is but as a rule if they don't tell you what it is it ain't all that great.

[Poncho65]

OK, if we're talking customs then the price mostly comes from the manufacturing cost and popularity, rather than any practicality. I've gotten a few custom manufacturers to admit that Bushlore style knives were basically selling fantasy since it didn't take much to produce the distinctive grind.

Now edge retention has 3 components - steel, heat treat and edge angle or edge thickness (trigonometry at work). Take any piece of steel you want (lawnmower blades work excellent), do a hillbilly heat treat on it and it will work. But it might not be optimal. In the same manner I remember a friend of mine field dressing a deer with a piece of sharpened tin because he forgot his knife but had a carbide sharpener in his kit. So Helle, as recently stated in the Mora thread, could have just messed up a bit. Hell I believe there's a video of a TOPS knife that got bent because it left the manufacturing process without the heat treat. Sadly it happens.
As a side note, I got a ban on another forum for calling out bs on one review where the guy took a bushlore style knife, chucked it in a tree a couple of times and deduced that it's junk because there was edge damage. In IT we say that 90% of the problems come from the nut that connects the keyboard to the chair, and this goes along those lines.

As far as forging goes - apparently it's tough. Haven't done it so can't testify as to the difficulty. While it allows some shaping options, I'm not sure how much of a metallurgical impact it can have, but again it's fantasy. The guy who spent 500+ hours playing any kind of game with swords will know that a forged sword is the best thing ever.
Just think about all knives that are marketed a certain way. A Hinderer won't make you impervious to flames, any of the special forces dubbed knives won't make you as competent as those guys in the tactical shenanigans, a bushlore won't make you Ray Mears and so on and on. But it's great to believe and in some ways that confidence does help - just look at Ka-bar and the blood groove. Only person I know to have used one where that could have mattered said that in that moment it made him more confident it'll work properly, only later to realize that any knife (with the adequate blade length) would have done the exact same thing since it's just a tool.

Good post and thanks for that styx

[Aloha]

Custom knives in general IMO cost what the maker decides.  Its not necessarily the sum total of the materials or engineering per se.  The maker to an extent probably prices according to what the "market" will pay or is paying.  How they decide what their time is worth is interesting. 

Is the Ray Mears knife for example worth the price and more importantly the wait?  Well thats hard to assess since many did pay the cost and waited.  I don't have that kind of money personally so the answer is no.  I also would need a warranty much like LM or Esee if I'm paying out that kind of money.  I don't know what the warranties are on customs or Rays. 

Steel is important but heat treat must be done properly for the knifes intended task.  Materials all play a role in quality as does craftsmanship however what makes on knife $1000 and another $150?  I'd say the makers reputation, their experience, the tools reputation, the materials used, low production hand made, etc.

My 2c

 

[styx]

You're welcome Poncho.

And it's exactly as Aloha said - all comes down to the man or woman behind the product

[Outback in Idaho]

  Was asking a source about the cost of Hella verses other knives.

 

Could be work costs. The average wage in Norway (Helleland) is 3347 Euros while in Sweden (Moraland) is 2578 Euros and in Finland (Martiiniland) is 2180 Euros. Helle brand might be stronger, however Helle steel isn’t amazing; Lauri steel is cheaper and better and arguably so is Mora (which costs 1/5 the of the price).

  Thank you folks for the replies. Was also reading up on types of steel and the Helle's triple laminate is slightly less than CM154 steel. Me, I prefer an S30V steel since having only one blade of that material - Leatherman Charge TTi. It holds an edge very well and I've never had an issue with rust or grime sticking to it. then too I had gotten a Spyderco Triangle SharpMaker to sharpen it as the blade does take a bit more - yet holds longer.

  So in reading further, that be cause of the Scandi grind one could sharpen the knife with a rock/stone. I tried a sharpening steel on the Scandi I was sent and it did sharpen okay though it also scratched the surface. Went over the Scandi grind with the fine triangle stone and that helped smooth out those scratches and really put an edge on the blade.
  This whole Scandi grind might take some time to get used to, though it sharpened well on the 40° slots. Though the grind would sharpen well in the field from rocks. I did sharpen the KHHI Scourge and McCurdy with rocks out last camping trip. Alos noticed the KHHI knives ate through some natural volcanic rocks.

  Did notice that cutting with fruits the Scandi grind is much different than with a Leatherman or Victorinox. More choppier of a cut rather than more of a refined cut. Maybe when I get out and about I can work on those feather sticks and such. Never seen those till the video of the new Morakniv. As for splitting wood , if i had the choice, the KHHI Scourge excels at that much better...

  I can't see myself splitting wood with this Marttiini Lynx as it's too light in weight. Would rather split wood with a heftier blade material, like the KHHI McCurdy or a more suitable hunting knife that has a broader spine.

  Will see over time how the Scandi differs in use and if the steel can stand up to its tasks. Did notice the Martiinni Lynx has a nice spine corner sharpening for using a ferrocerium rod.  That's how sharp I like the backs of the awl tools, gives a better cutting exterior.

[Outback in Idaho]

  Guess us Americans tend to go for harder steels than the Scand makers? Maybe that's why the customs are more expensive in that they may have to resort to outsourcing small batches of premium steel and don't get discounts like large manufacturers would.

  Seen a few Damascus steel Scandi on Amazon really dirt cheap. Had thought true quality Damascus steel was expensive, unless it's smurfed steel, or worse... fake damascus.

  Did see that Helle sells a few of their knife blanks and they are rat tailed tangs. So a Helle could be more affordable buy buying a blank and going from there ... unless the blanks aren't treated/tempered?

[styx]

Your run of the mill O1 steel isn't that expensive. For instance a 3/16" x 1" x 18" piece is $16
A2 of the same size is $27
Highest grade of CPM S90V that is 3/16" x 1-1/2" x 18" is $78 (ironically CPM S30V is of the same size is about the same price)
Highest grade of CPM 154 3/16" (.187) x 1-1/2" x 18" is $70, which again is the same price for CPM 4V 5/32" x 1 1/2" x 18"

Now you also should factor in handle materials and the less visible costs like grinding belts (in some small percentage the grinders themselves too as it's an investment), water for cooling, electricity to run 'em, makers time, polishing wheels and compounds, etc.
Similar way with sheaths - leather and kydex isn't crazy expensive, nor are the small individual components like dye as you can use it for more than just one knife. However it again comes to the things we don't see - like a very good respirator because micarta and kydex isn't something you'd want to grind with just a bandana over your face.

HT is another discussion altogether. Some steels can be done easily in house and even allow for a fancier differential HT with minimal equipment and investment, while other steels make it a must to have a third party HT done (hence why it's easier to make batches of knives).

Some guys like LT Wright will give you a tool that is worth every penny, some companies will make excellent products that can rival and exceed many midtech and customs. What usually justifies the price is art and pride of ownership.

As a side note blanks are heat treated to minimize the chances of warping. That's why the edge can be burned and the HT taken out during the final grind.

Now as far as the scandi edge, that is very debatable. It's actually a zero saber saber grind (I can already hear some people sizing me up for a noose) and it's not as traditional as many would like to believe. The best explanation I've heard (easiest to understand) comes from Jim Nowka of the American knife company

[Steinar]

The traditional Scandi grind was a large diameter hollow grind without edge bevel, even though the term is now used for a sabre grind with no edge bevel. There were no belt grinders in the Scandinavian countryside, large grind stones on the other hand...

As for Helle, their steel is Bonpertuis T7Mo in the edge, and straight 18/8 for the sides of the blade (i.e. the same you will find in a stainless pot in the kitchen). So, nothing special there.

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=T7Mo&ni=1356&hrn=1&gm=0

The Helle blanks are heat treated and are popular for hobby projects in Norway.

Heat treatment is in general something that is very easy to get wrong, and a cheap steel may have a tricky process, while an expensive steel not necessarily has a demanding process either. As a consumer, you generally won't discover till it's too late.

As a Scandinavian, I've always been a little puzzled by American thinking on knives. You seem to like a heavier construction and have a very strong focus on hardness and edge retention. The Scandi knives have roots in an agrarian society, the allround knife had to be truly allround, and would in general cut more twine and whittle feathersticks and so on than dress game (if ever). Also, it had to perform well in cold weather and it was cost-sensitive, those last two being part of the reason for the rat-tail tang. A heavy knife would simply be impractical on the farm compared to the traditional Mora style knife. Traditional, laminated blades in Norway were, and are, simply two different grades of carbon steel, with a core pretty similar to 1095. The old Scandi has in several ways more in common with a Case or Opinel than the modern bushcraft knife.

[Steinar]

Btw, if a Scandinavian maker says "stainless" and the knife is actually produced in Scandinavia, it's usually Sandvik 12C27.

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=12C27%2C440A%2C420HC&ni=704,510,789&hrn=1&gm=0

The above compares 12C27, 440A, and Latrobe 420HC. It's worth mentioning Sandvik has a reputation for very pure steel, on the other hand, 12C27 is actually pretty difficult to get the optimal heat treatment for.

[styx]

and there's the explanation from one of the resident Vikings

on a side note, I find it funny how a rather traditional design that is meant as an all around knife still works better in my hands than purpose made knives

[Grathr]

The traditional Scandi grind was a large diameter hollow grind without edge bevel, even though the term is now used for a sabre grind with no edge bevel. There were no belt grinders in the Scandinavian countryside, large grind stones on the other hand...

As for Helle, their steel is Bonpertuis T7Mo in the edge, and straight 18/8 for the sides of the blade (i.e. the same you will find in a stainless pot in the kitchen). So, nothing special there.

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=T7Mo&ni=1356&hrn=1&gm=0

The Helle blanks are heat treated and are popular for hobby projects in Norway.

Heat treatment is in general something that is very easy to get wrong, and a cheap steel may have a tricky process, while an expensive steel not necessarily has a demanding process either. As a consumer, you generally won't discover till it's too late.

As a Scandinavian, I've always been a little puzzled by American thinking on knives. You seem to like a heavier construction and have a very strong focus on hardness and edge retention. The Scandi knives have roots in an agrarian society, the allround knife had to be truly allround, and would in general cut more twine and whittle feathersticks and so on than dress game (if ever). Also, it had to perform well in cold weather and it was cost-sensitive, those last two being part of the reason for the rat-tail tang. A heavy knife would simply be impractical on the farm compared to the traditional Mora style knife. Traditional, laminated blades in Norway were, and are, simply two different grades of carbon steel, with a core pretty similar to 1095. The old Scandi has in several ways more in common with a Case or Opinel than the modern bushcraft knife.

Thanks Steinar!
I knew you would have a good answer on this one.

Some historical info:
One theory of why of laminated steel knives became so popular in Norway, was simply that good edge steel was expensive. (Tollekniven  tradisjon og håndverk by Øystein Køhn) By laminating it with cheaper steel, you would get a good blade, that could take and hold and edge for less money. You also got the benefit of the softer cheap steel preventing the hard edge steel core from breaking.
Norway was by far the poorest of the scandinavian countries from the 1950s and back to the 1400's if not earlier than that as well.

[Outback in Idaho]

  Ahh, now that is good input! Historical explanation.

  My father would used tool steel if he could find it, or steel from lawn mower blades. He probably had tried spring steel, but he used whatever was the toughest steel and made a knife from. He rarely ever bought a knife, past a pocket knife which was his EDC. The other was when we went out in the woods hunting. He was the type of guy who would use an hatchet to split wood, a hunting knife for dressing out game, cooking knives for preparing food - and used the hunting knife if not.
  Don't think he ever split wood with a knife and would probably you if someone tried. And he relied on his lighter for making fores and had Coleman stones and lanterns. Still have two of his older Coleman lanterns.

  Will have to dig out his older blades when I find them, as he rarely had more than just one. Though I do think him and mom had older 60's styled Ka-Bar knives with the finger guard & pointed pommel. Not sure if he ever thought outside of the box on using a knife and don't think I ever seen him make a fire with the knife. Heck, I've never tried starting a fire with a ferrocerium rod till I joined this forum group. See what y'all did to me. You've opened up possibilities.

  As for knife steel I did not know what one was from the other until about midpoint in life, my 30's. that when I found out that some steels were too soft that they had to be sharpened whenever you looked cross-eyed at them. Case pocket knives held a better edge. Though I carried a pocket knife really never use one unless something needed cut - was tradition for a young man to carry a pocket knife; triple blades of Clip, Drop, and Sheepsfoot. Though a Clip point is stronger I've fancied a Sabre blade for some odd reason.
  I had picked up a Trailing point knife for when I went hunting, but also carried  heavier hunting blade as well. The latter was more for tradition though I never really gave much thought as to what one could do with a knife in a survival situation - past gutting, cutting and processing & self-defense when SHTF.

  I've acquired much information of knives over the internet though only recently came across the Scandi grind - hence my curiosity about the historical facts and reasoning behind it. Have this personal motto: The more I learn, the more interesting the adventure becomes.

  Thanks to all you of the next adventure enhancement is only a click away.

  Scandi knifes seems to be more Modified-Drop pointed I guess for strength

[Outback in Idaho]

  More in the past 10 years I've discovered a fondness of S30V steel since acquiring a Charge TTi. Now will have to say I baby this blade in that it's the finest blade I've ever used. Though I tend to use it more for food processing I know if it comes down to it the blade can handle any task and it will be good and sharp. The serrated blade gets the majority of the tasking jobs unless I'm cutting thick, heavy material then the Awl gets out for some of that action.

  Have a few blades in CM154 that seem adequate though they don't really hold an edge like S30V does. And anything below 440 is rubbish. Sure it can be used but you'll always be sharpening it after every use and will likely be dulled down if you don't. 420 is used for cheap carpy knives that places sell more for looks than quality.

  So for me, quality steel counts as it always has your back & can get past a few sharpening sessions if needed. As for S90 ... I haven't had any, though would be worried about the brittleness in stressful or freezing situations. Am happy with S30V - though CM154 is supposed to be better than 440A it seems to lack a finer edge compared to S30v.