It doesn't make any sense.

[Benner]

Say bye to Dave everyone.  When Mike or Dunc read that he is outta here! 

[DaveK]

Say bye to Dave everyone.  When Mike or Dunc read that he is outta here! 

Bring it on 

'bout time someone stuck up for little old LM

[max6166]

Before the flame war starts....

I found myself not using my SwissTool and grabbing for a Wave and then a Kick just now. Not because they are better, but because I was doing more delicate work and wanted a lighter tool. I also wanted the diamond file.

[Benner]

Say bye to Dave everyone.  When Mike or Dunc read that he is outta here! 

Bring it on 

'bout time someone stuck up for little old LM

Hey!    I do too.  AND I like Swisstools as well.

[DaveK]

Say bye to Dave everyone.  When Mike or Dunc read that he is outta here! 

Bring it on 

'bout time someone stuck up for little old LM

Hey!    I do too.  AND I like Swisstools as well.

There's nowt so queer as folk.... 

[NutSAK]

The Core?  I certainly would have a hard time buying a tool that has plastic as a major part of the mechanicals over an all-metal, rock-solid Swisstool.  I'd rather compare a Swisstool to a Supertool, honestly.  My ST200s are no slouch.

I understand what you mean, Dave.  At first, there appear to be no defining innovations with the Swisstool over the standard Leatherman.  Then you realize that the Swisstool was the first design with no clumping and outside opening tools, and that those two items make a world of difference.  As far as I can tell, Leatherman still hasn't caught up to Victorinox on those fronts.

[Freudian Frog]

I should use my Swisstool to SMASH MY LEATHERMANS.

HULK SMASH! Graawr! And take pictures. Hulk take pictures too.

[DaveK]

The Core?  I certainly would have a hard time buying a tool that has plastic as a major part of the mechanicals over a rock-solid Swisstool.

I understand what you mean, Dave.  At first, there appear to be no defining innovations with the Swisstool over the standard Leatherman.  Then you realize that the Swisstool was the first design with no clumping and outside opening tools, and that those two items make a world of difference. 

That's a fair point. I'll concede that one (I didn't know that tbh).

The plastic on the Core though, whilst more than cosmetic, doesn't weaken the tool though does it? Granted - if you dropped it in a fire it might rattle a bit afterwards - but the forces are all carried by steel.

Hmmm interesting idea for a thread there - ZYTEL v CELIDOR I know there's no plastic on the Swisstool or Spirit, but the principle's the same.  

[NutSAK]

Honestly, if the Zytel melted, I don't think you could use the Core at all.  I don't own one, but from the pictures it looks like there's an awfully thick piece of it around the pivot between the tools and the handles.

Look at it this way.  Is there ever any benefit to using plastic in a tool over metal?  Other than to reduce weight and cost, that is...

[Freudian Frog]

Look at it this way.  Is there ever any benefit to using plastic in a tool over metal?  Other than to reduce weight and cost, that is...

Reducing weight is great... but you can do that by skeletonizing metal too...

[NutSAK]

Hmmm interesting idea for a thread there - ZYTEL v CELIDOR I know there's no plastic on the Swisstool or Spirit, but the principle's the same. 

I don't think the principle is the same at all.  Cellidor is used for ergonomic and aesthetic reasons only.  A SAK works perfectly well without scales.  Honestly, I'm not sure why LM decided to use Zytel in the mechanicals of the Core at all.  Is there some benefit other than to reduce weight and cost?

[Roadie]

Look at it this way.  Is there ever any benefit to using plastic in a tool over metal?  Other than to reduce weight and cost, that is...

It can be comfier, doesn't feel as cold in cold weather, doesn't rust, needs very little TLC, saying all that i agree plastic isn't the greatest thing to be put in a multitool.

[NutSAK]

Look at it this way.  Is there ever any benefit to using plastic in a tool over metal?  Other than to reduce weight and cost, that is...

It can be comfier, doesn't feel as cold in cold weather, doesn't rust, needs very little TLC, saying all that i agree plastic isn't the greatest thing to be put in a multitool.

OK, but in the Core, the plastic doesn't touch your skin--it's on the inside of the tool only.  So, there is no benefit of comfort or temperature.  I can't say that my Swisstools have needed any TLC either.  Some of my Leathermans have, though.   

[Roadie]

OK, but in the Core, the plastic doesn't touch your skin--it's on the inside of the tool only.  So, there is no benefit of comfort or temperature.  I can't say that my Swisstools have needed any TLC either.  Some of my Leathermans have, though.   

I was just on about tools in general, but yes in the case of the Core it does seem a bit odd

[max6166]

Plastic inserts can also trap moisture behind them, leading to increased rust. At least, that seems to be the case with my Kick...

[NutSAK]

I was just on about tools in general,

Right.  Your points were good ones--I was just trying to point out that those good points don't really relate to the Core.

[Swiss Man]

Look at it this way.  Is there ever any benefit to using plastic in a tool over metal?  Other than to reduce weight and cost, that is...

It can be comfier, doesn't feel as cold in cold weather, doesn't rust, needs very little TLC, saying all that i agree plastic isn't the greatest thing to be put in a multitool.

OK, but in the Core, the plastic doesn't touch your skin--it's on the inside of the tool only.  So, there is no benefit of comfort or temperature.  I can't say that my Swisstools have needed any TLC either.  Some of my Leathermans have, though.    

I just recently rescued my Swiss Tool from the pocket of the car door (it was there about a year) the only rust was found between the awl and the phillips head.  I have owned Kicks that rusted in my house sitting on a shelf.

[DaveK]

Look at it this way.  Is there ever any benefit to using plastic in a tool over metal?  Other than to reduce weight and cost, that is...

It can be comfier, doesn't feel as cold in cold weather, doesn't rust, needs very little TLC, saying all that i agree plastic isn't the greatest thing to be put in a multitool.

OK, but in the Core, the plastic doesn't touch your skin--it's on the inside of the tool only.  So, there is no benefit of comfort or temperature.  I can't say that my Swisstools have needed any TLC either.  Some of my Leathermans have, though.   

Just looking at a Core now. The Zytel is used as a spacer, I can see why I think. The tool has a LOT of very large, big tools in the handles, meaning the handles need to be wide. I guess that gives you a choice of thickening the plier heads to nearly double their actual size, or using spacers.

The pliers would be unwieldy at twice the thickness, so I guess spacers are the way to go. Four sizeable chunks of steel might be heavy - and I'm guessing quite abrasive.

There's no stresses on the plastic at all, so apart from the risk of melting - I can't see a problem myself.

I've really beaten on this Core, it ain't going to break easily!

[NutSAK]

There's no stresses on the plastic at all, so apart from the risk of melting - I can't see a problem myself.

I've really beaten on this Core, it ain't going to break easily!

Right.  The melting was the only thing I was concerned with.  If I was in a survival situation and dropped my tool into a fire for a few seconds, I have a problem on my hands.  It is a rare possibility, but one that I would consider when buying a multi-tool w/plastic inserts vs. one without.  In fact, I would probably pass up SOG for that reason also.

[DaveK]

There's no stresses on the plastic at all, so apart from the risk of melting - I can't see a problem myself.

I've really beaten on this Core, it ain't going to break easily!

Right.  The melting was the only thing I was concerned with.  If I was in a survival situation and dropped my tool into a fire for a few seconds, I have a problem on my hands.  It is a rare possibility, but one that I would consider when buying a multi-tool w/plastic inserts vs. one without.  In fact, I would probably pass up SOG for that reason also.

It's a fair point - I'll give you that. I guess the same could be said of nylon washers too.

I'm curious now about how quickly or easily Zytel melts. Anyone lend me a Core?

[NutSAK]

I'm curious about that too.  I would imagine it has a fairly high melting point.

[Roadie]

Now which Zytel would that be....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zytel

[NutSAK]

Now which Zytel would that be....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zytel

I'm sure it's Zytel® HTNWRF51MP20 NC010 20% Teflon®

Right?     

[Freudian Frog]

Now which Zytel would that be....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zytel

I'm sure it's Zytel® HTNWRF51MP20 NC010 20% Teflon®

Right?     

In knives it's usually glass reinforced resins... does that narrow it down any?

No.

[NutSAK]

I doubt it would be in this case, since it is not a structural member.  I was thinking it may be teflon impregnated for the lubricity.

[joebw]

Hey Gang,

Plastics generally have a lousy coefficent of heat transfer.  In plain english, that means that they heat up very slowly.  Drop a kick, fuse or blast in a fire for a few seconds and you really won't see much happen. 

Having engineered lots of products using plastic components and having tested them in 1200 degree F fires for up to 30 minutes, I must observe that the nay-sayers need to go and learn a bit of materials engineering.

By the way, my normal EDC Leatherman (out of the 151 that I own) is the Blast.

Have fun and please don't get so serious

Best - Joe

[NutSAK]

I didn't think we were getting that serious... 

When you test the plastics for heat transfer, are they layered up directly against a sheet of stainless steel?  I would think that the coefficient of heat transfer of a stainless part is going to be much greater than air or another piece of plastic.  What type of plastic does the Leatherman use in their design?

Could you assure me that, if I dropped a Core into the coal bed of a fire, and it took me 5 minutes to locate something to fish it out with, that the liner definitely would not melt?

Thanks for the insight.

[max6166]

Here is some info.

[NutSAK]

Plastic inserts can also trap moisture behind them, leading to increased rust. At least, that seems to be the case with my Kick...

Could you post a picture of the rust you're seeing as a result of the trapped moisture?

[max6166]

Plastic inserts can also trap moisture behind them, leading to increased rust. At least, that seems to be the case with my Kick...

Could you post a picture of the rust you're seeing as a result of the trapped moisture?

I think I am losing my mind. I thought about it for a second and realized I had never even disassembled my Kick. 

I had a little rust on the phillips shank and on the exposed inside part of the handle, but I have never even looked behind the plastic inserts.   

My best guess is that I was living vicariously through one of Spoonrobot's old posts.

I swear I thought I had taken it apart when I wrote that...