Craftsman/Swiss Champ clarification needed...has 2.5mm pliers

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I bought a SAK, the ad said, "Lots of tools", no other identifier. 
I'm just wondering which version I have.  I know there are quite a few folks looking for clarification on the distinction between the two and I'm hesitant to begin another thread, but I feel as though this one I have is somewhere between where one ends and the other starts.  I've included photos of the tools that tend to help in identifying the transition.

Plus scales, no straight pen.  (mine is missing the ballpoint pen)


What I believe are 2.5mm pliers:


Keyring location:


Awl and screwdriver:


Fishscaler:

[jazzbass]

I'm just wondering which version I have.  I know there are quite a few folks looking for clarification on the distinction between the two and I'm hesitant to begin another thread, but I feel as though this one I have is somewhere between where one ends and the other starts.

So I'm not really following your question here. What are "the two" that you are looking for clarification for? What is this model between?

Re: this knife. The SwissChamp was introduced in 1986 with the original style 2.5mm pliers. These were changed around c 1988 to the 3.0mm version. The knife in your pictures is the 1986/7 version with the original pliers, and all other tools are consistent with that (no hook, keyring on the spacer, etc). If the tang stamp has the small "v" then its probably 1986, a large "V" would be 1987.

[FolderBeholder]

Thank you JB, I was confused which knife I had, I was actually confused about Craftsman/Swiss Champ, not sure why I wrote Champion (I edited my original entry to state Craftsman in the title).  Thank you for the clarification and since this has the small "v" on the tang, I'll put it in my database as a 1986.

[LeaF]

Craftsman never had magnifier layer, if I'm not mistaken

[FolderBeholder]

LeaF, you're probably right.  Before posting this topic, I was trying to do some reading by pulling up older threads about the differences but confused myself even more. 

[VICMAN]

I agree with JAZZBASS that it is an 86 or 87 Swisschamp.

Nice purchase! 

[Thunderpants]

One thing is for sure: It's not a Bantam.

[NorCalJim]

It looks like you have the Swiss Champ model that replaced the Champion in 1985 (according to SAKWiki). http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=SwissChamp

I used this following source to help me identify and confirm that a Swiss Champ that I had purchased was the original Swiss Champ model that replaced the Champion:

http://www.e-webtechnologies.com/sak/Victorinox_Evolution_of_the_Swiss_Champ.pdf

[FolderBeholder]

Thank you all for the replies.
I was really confused, and it didn't help that I was reading about Champions, Swiss Champs, Craftsman varieties, clicking in and out of different threads, some with photos missing, though I feel as though I now know what I have. 

To think I was a little bit taken aback that the guy didn't send me the one in the photo, which I don't know what it is, it didn't have pliers, so maybe a Champion?
Ah heck, I'll post a photo of what I was expecting.
Here it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332092459265?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
A photo from the auction:

[NorCalJim]

Thank you all for the replies.
I was really confused, and it didn't help that I was reading about Champions, Swiss Champs, Craftsman varieties, clicking in and out of different threads, some with photos missing, though I feel as though I now know what I have. 

To think I was a little bit taken aback that the guy didn't send me the one in the photo, which I don't know what it is, it didn't have pliers, so maybe a Champion?
Ah heck, I'll post a photo of what I was expecting.
Here it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332092459265?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
A photo from the auction:

 

I think you made a good purchase at a great price.  Think of the Champion as a Swiss Champ without the pliers (off the top, I'm not sure how the back tools compare).  I have come to really like SAKWiki for information.  I used to consult the Smart Knives site for quick pictures of SAK configurations and names and quick designations of current vs. retired SAKs:

https://smartknives.com/Pocket-Knives.html

[FolderBeholder]

Thank you and I appreciate the link.
I just found this review, and am reading it now:
http://www.e-webtechnologies.com/sak/Victorinox_Evolution_of_the_Swiss_Champ.pdf

[Poncho65]

Thank you all for the replies.
I was really confused, and it didn't help that I was reading about Champions, Swiss Champs, Craftsman varieties, clicking in and out of different threads, some with photos missing, though I feel as though I now know what I have. 

To think I was a little bit taken aback that the guy didn't send me the one in the photo, which I don't know what it is, it didn't have pliers, so maybe a Champion?
Ah heck, I'll post a photo of what I was expecting.
Here it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332092459265?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
A photo from the auction:

That pic looks like a Champion for sure Why you ended up with a Swisschamp thinking you were getting the one in the above pic is beyond me though The Swisschamp you have looks really great though so it was a score either way

[FolderBeholder]

That pic looks like a Champion for sure Why you ended up with a Swisschamp thinking you were getting the one in the above pic is beyond me though The Swisschamp you have looks really great though so it was a score either way

Thanks Poncho!  I didn't notice that it had pliers at first, I just figured I was sent the one from the photo, it wasn't until I was adding it to my database that I realized it wasn't as advertised.  I agree, a score either way. 

[Huntsman]

........
I have come to really like SAKWiki for information. 
.............

Yay   
It really is quite good eh?  Especially for those larger SAKs

FB - That is a real score getting a SwissChamp with the first design of the Pliers
They were only issued for a couple of years - So I would say are rareish
The focus of my collection is the tool variations - and it took me ages to find one.

And yes very confusing/hilarious that he advertised a Champion - But sent a SwissChamp.
And all along you thought it was a Craftsman   

Funily enough this happened to me a few times with a NOS seller in Oz Eg

• Pictured Huntsman - Received a Ranger     
• Advertised what he called a Tinker/Ranger - Received a Master Craftsman - Not bad
• Listed as an Explorer - Received a Woodsman - Now that really was a win

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Listed as an Explorer - Received a Woodsman...[/li][/list]

That was a pleasant mix-up. 
Although I have a 1960s Woodsman, the modern one has been the hardest one for me to find on the used marketplace.

[VICMAN]

Thank you all for the replies.
I was really confused, and it didn't help that I was reading about Champions, Swiss Champs, Craftsman varieties, clicking in and out of different threads, some with photos missing, though I feel as though I now know what I have. 

To think I was a little bit taken aback that the guy didn't send me the one in the photo, which I don't know what it is, it didn't have pliers, so maybe a Champion?
Ah heck, I'll post a photo of what I was expecting.
Here it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332092459265?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
A photo from the auction:

You really lucked out getting the Swisschamp instead of the Champion.  Both are great knives, but you got more than expected this way.

Great purchase!   

[jazzbass]

The knife from the auction is a Champion from c 1986. This particular model is somewhat interesting because it was made after they introduced the new style fine screwdriver (with the hump) but before they introduced the chisel into the Champion. My guess is that this model was made for less than a year before the Champion, like the Swiss Champ, got the chisel as well. That said, I agree you made out better with the SwissChamp, if only because the knife you got was in much better shape than the one in the auction.

[FolderBeholder]

Thanks Vicman and JB.
I figured either one would be nice to have.  Ultimately, I'm happier with the 2.5mm pliers as I didn't have a SAK with those.

[an0nemus]

........
I have come to really like SAKWiki for information. 
.............

Yay 
It really is quite good eh?  Especially for those larger SAKs

FB - That is a real score getting a SwissChamp with the first design of the Pliers
They were only issued for a couple of years - So I would say are rareish
The focus of my collection is the tool variations - and it took me ages to find one.

And yes very confusing/hilarious that he advertised a Champion - But sent a SwissChamp.
And all along you thought it was a Craftsman 

Funily enough this happened to me a few times with a NOS seller in Oz Eg

• Pictured Huntsman - Received a Ranger     
• Advertised what he called a Tinker/Ranger - Received a Master Craftsman - Not bad
• Listed as an Explorer - Received a Woodsman - Now that really was a win

Hello, Hunstman. I just noticed that your active in editing SAKWiki. I'm just curious as to why the SwissChamp is described as consisting 8 layers when other sources and photos show only 7 layers? I don't know where to post this question over there so I decided to post here 

[Huntsman]

Hi Mate,

There is a post called Been doing some work in the Wiki - where Wiki queries work etc can be discussed.
I think there is also an older thread somewhere, started by ICanFixThat, on this topic!!
But here is OK for Qs - as long as we see it !!

Yes this is a perennial question for the SC
Is a layer defined as:

• A tool/spring? - Or ....
• A gap between liners?

In the SC the metal and wood saws share a gap between liners, but each have a separate spring...

So if the former definition is true - Then the SC has eight layers - If the latter it has seven !!

I am not really sure who says, or who decides - Personally I prefer the former!
And I think throughout the Wiki it is the former - eg The Ranger is described as having five layers etc etc 

It would be good to know what Victorinox themselves think - I did a quick search on their website and they do not refer much to layers

Any thoughts anyone?

[an0nemus]

Hi Mate,

There is a post called Been doing some work in the Wiki - where Wiki queries work etc can be discussed.
I think there is also an older thread somewhere, started by ICanFixThat, on this topic!!
But here is OK for Qs - as long as we see it !!

Yes this is a perennial question for the SC
Is a layer defined as:

• A tool/spring? - Or ....
• A gap between liners?

In the SC the metal and wood saws share a gap between liners, but each have a separate spring...

So if the former definition is true - Then the SC has eight layers - If the latter it has seven !!

I am not really sure who says, or who decides - Personally I prefer the former!
And I think throughout the Wiki it is the former - eg The Ranger is described as having five layers etc etc 

It would be good to know what Victorinox themselves think - I did a quick search on their website and they do not refer much to layers

Any thoughts anyone?

I see! I went back and checked high-res photos and see what you mean. I agree with your opinion that layers should be counted as tool/spring. I also checked Victorinox's site and its silent on the layer matter.


It's just that in the external reference section of SAKWiki on the SC, it points to this link which is prominently in the 7-layer camp


http://www.e-webtechnologies.com/sak/Victorinox_Evolution_of_the_Swiss_Champ.pdf


Anyway, I already sent a request to SAKWiki admin for an account, and hope to contribute. Thanks, mate! 

[Huntsman]

Yes that really is a superb document   I have used it often myself   
But as you say definitely in the seven layer camp.

I think James Christian and his collaborator were very active in some of the SAK forums and clubs that have been around over the years.
 
He still has an excellent blog / website available I think.

See you on the boards / in the Wiki 
 

[an0nemus]

Yes that really is a superb document   I have used it often myself   
But as you say definitely in the seven layer camp.

I think James Christian and his collaborator were very active in some of the SAK forums and clubs that have been around over the years.
 
He still has an excellent blog / website available I think.

See you on the boards / in the Wiki 

See you there and I appreciate the prompt and full reply