Soldier Vs Soldier (and brothers besides)

[Sea Monster]

This is possibly a discussion for the SOSAK boards, but I ain't allowed round those parts no more.

Not since the incident with the Golfer & thanksgiving dinner.


Anyway, so I've got both a Soldier & an OHT coming my way (I would of liked a 2009 Soldier, but hey, I'm impatient & poor)
and I was thinking,

What have they changed?

They've added a phillips and a saw? (and one handed opening, and locking blades, and some other hoo-hah)

Anyway, these are (in various contexts and eras) considered the best multis for the task, not too much, not too little, (I'm sure there was some sentimentalism in choosing a pocket knife again where other military's just carry big f-off bayonets, but anyway)

What I'm getting at, in a round about sort of fashion, is the Pros & Cons of the two Soldiers, and where the other Alox or 111mm knives fit in the food chain.


The Farmer, a perennial favourite around here, has a saw, something government officials have evidently decided is a useful tool -  has anyone heard of Soldiers (swiss or otherwise) carrying this choice?

Has there been much rumour of military folk choosing 111mm SAKs over (or in addition too) their issue equipment?

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Well the new Soldiers have a saw, and to my mind that's there only advantage over the Alox Soldiers .The new one's blade is half serrated and too big for really intricate work, and the awl's next to useless compared to the brillant one on the Alox Soldier


Sorry for being so negative, but I really think the Alox Soldiers make a better service tool

[Freudian Frog]

I'm thinking that the locking blade and the saw are quite useful...

I'm not sure about the size change though.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I'm thinking that the locking blade and the saw are quite useful...

I'm not sure about the size change though.

See the locking blade (and the length) are a positive disadvantage to me , but how is your average squaddie going to sharpen the serations in the field, when there probably only issued a very basic whetstone

[ducktapehero]

how is your average squaddie going to sharpen the serations in the field

That's a good point. Serrated knives cut great but you have to have the right tool to sharpen them. With a plain edge you can improvise.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

how is your average squaddie going to sharpen the serations in the field

That's a good point. Serrated knives cut great but you have to have the right tool to sharpen them. With a plain edge you can improvise.

Exactly

And you really don't want to burden the troops even further by making them carry a speSmurfpillsed sharpener

[Freudian Frog]

But the point of serrations is to keep the actual cutting edge retain the edge for longer. For the regular squaddie you don't want them to do maintenance that often.

You could always just sharpen it like a plain edge and have it eventually return to being plain.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I hate serrations and you'll never convince me of there benefits

[gafftapegreenia]

But the point of serrations is to keep the actual cutting edge retain the edge for longer. For the regular squaddie you don't want them to do maintenance that often.

You could always just sharpen it like a plain edge and have it eventually return to being plain.

I have a feeling we will see many knives in the future with such evidence.

[Sea Monster]

Wasn't the serrations originally a stricture of getting the German contract? (See, I do read SOSAK articles!)

[Grant Lamontagne]

The Germans are to blame for the serrations....

The German army used to carry 108mm knives, made by a number of companies, including Victorinox, but Vic swept them all away when the new 111mm contract came out in 2003, with the OH GAK, which was Vic's first OH knife.  They then made a civilian version called the OHT, an OH version of the Trekker, which was originally called the Trailmaster, but had to be changed because of copyright issues with Cold Steel.

The Dutch army used to carry a version of the ALOX Soldier model, made by Victorinox and others, but eventually switched to a version of the 111mm Centurion model from Vic, but is also apparently issuing models from other companies as well.

There are some others- I think that Singapore might be issuing OHT's, at least to some troops.

Here's some reading material if you are really interested in the topic:

Soldier Variants

Soldier Variants, Part II

The REAL Dutch Issue

Swiss (Made) Army Knives

Trekkers, One Handed and Otherwise

GAK Review

108mm GAK Variants

I also have some additional information about some countries nd their issue knives, but it's on my fried computer.  Hopefully I'll have a chance to have a look at it tomorrow and get it sorted.

Def

[appletree_man]

I hate serrations and you'll never convince me of there benefits

Ditto 

[Sea Monster]

Def -

Is there any clues as the the prompts for the 111mm range to begin with?
Did the Germans (or someone else) specifically require larger knives? or was it just evolution/competition with other larger knives on the market?

[Grant Lamontagne]

My guess would be the competition thing, but that is just a guess.  Plus the 111mm range had more options available like locking blades and different tools, so it offered them more choice.

Def

[Poncho65]

I hate serrations and you'll never convince me of there benefits

Ditto 

Yeah I don't like serrated blades either

I am just a plain person who likes a plain edge

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I hate serrations and you'll never convince me of there benefits

Ditto 

Yeah I don't like serrated blades either

I am just a plain person who likes a plain edge

Good on you fella's

[Benner]

I don't really use serrated blades, but they clearly have their place.  I don't think that anyone can say that there are no occasions where a serrated blade would not be more of a benefit than a PE blade.

Like I say I don't use them, but I do find it amazing when people claim that they have no benefits at all.

[Sea Monster]

Like I say I don't use them, but I do find it amazing when people claim that they have no benefits at all.

Generally best for tough, fibrous stuff.

So...Cord (natural fibre - synthetic cuts nice with plain edge), Meat, and Bread?

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

There only of true benefit if your not going to be able to sharpen the blade when it starts to dull, that's the only time a serrated blade come's into it's own in my opinion

[Sea Monster]

Old vs New (07) Alox Soldier.

i like the old one better. Brass (?) liners, squared-off tools.

i tool caliper to every blade to check the new polished ones - thickness is the same, but the squared edges just look more manly (maybe?)

I hate this keyboard, it makes my every comment a chore.

I'm still not sold on the NEW new Soldier (OHT) the one-hand blade is, as far as i can compare (i only have the surge for alternative) reasonable well shaped, but perhaps a bit further along the blade that it could be, giving you a wider-circle for your thumb to navigate, which might not be an issue for those with longer thumbs, but took me a bit to get used to.

the handfeel of the alox is nicer too, it has a confidence inspiring weight.

I'll test both in the wet (it's spring here, so not much chance of cold) to see if either has better or worse grip (nylon or alox)

does anyone know the specs the Swiss (or other) army used to judge best-tool-for-job? (other than cost effectiveness)

[Benner]

I prefer the older soldiers with their brass liners and non-polished tools as well. 

[gafftapegreenia]

I will add to that notion. The older Alox soldiers are awesome.

[Swiss Man]

The NEW Soldier is a glorified GAK that is all there is too it. 
Even though I love the OHT this is a HUGE let down for me, they just copied the GAK with different scales
(stupid Swiss Army) .

[Poncho65]

I don't really use serrated blades, but they clearly have their place.  I don't think that anyone can say that there are no occasions where a serrated blade would not be more of a benefit than a PE blade.

Like I say I don't use them, but I do find it amazing when people claim that they have no benefits at all.

I agree they have there place I just never found that I need one

[donvito]

I'm very impressed with my OHT. It did take a bit used to to open the blade smoothly but now it opens in a snap and comes in very handy very fast.
Few things I would change on it but an addition of a clip is a must. The knife has a lot of defensive potential (it's not a fighting knife) and for a soldier to dig through his pocket or fumble with a sheath in a emergency is not healthy.
What I really want to see is new soldier revolution. Ether modify the current (2008) model after some user feedback or make specialized versions. Corkscrew for officers (lol), pliers and a metal file for mechanics, etc...

But overall I'm not disappointed with Vic and oht, gak and new sak are all great knives. Funny how things turn out Vic was started with an angry swiss wanting to make knives for swiss army in swithzerland not germany and his company ends up supplying the german army with knives years later.

[crls1]

I wonder why the Swiss Army didn't choose the Wenger New Ranger 178. It has the same tools of the OHO Trekker, but with a plain edge.

Carlos

[donvito]

Politics. Victorinox owns Wenger now. Is far as I know Wenger had the new rangers designed before the acquisition or independently at least and Vic being the "boss" now wants their original design produced. I can be wrong since what the official statement said was that a number of companies (names withheld) entered their knives for an evaluation and Vic came out VICtorious. What I would like to see is pictures of other entries with their in field reports and company names (and countries in case of outsourcing).

[AndyTiedye]

I have been wondering the same thing.   I'd have them add pliers if it were up to me, of course.

Actually, it's the 78 that has the plain edge.   The 178 is serrated.

[I'm Still Bison]

 If I'd been in charge of whatever branch  that specs and purchases equipment,I would've specified a OH Locksmith.

[Sea Monster]

File > Saw?


I suspect that debate will go on as long as the Phillips vs Corkscrew issue.


I'm still pondering the concept of Bladeless Multis & SA(K?)s

With so many people carrying dedicated blades, I see the appeal in filling the Blade slot of a SAK with a File or Saw or Scissors instead - all three are extras I would happily (to varying degrees) accept on a regular SAK. (Fish descalers I have less use for)