Why I don't like backside tools.

[cbl51]

I will admit that my 'default setting' as it may be is the old scout knife. My dad gave me one when I was a kid and joining the scouts, so it became very ingrained into what there was of my mind. That scout knife saw me through my adolescence and misadventures and high school graduation. Not long after I enlisted in the army and picked the Engineers for the purpose of posable learning of a trade that was usable afterward. I didn't think at the time that there would. be much call for snipers, sentry removal, or blowing bridges in civilian life.

Lo and behold, the army in its infinite wisdom issued me a scout knife. They didn't call it a scout knife, but a MI-L-K-818D, knife, pocket utility type. It had plain steel handle scales with a pattern stamped into it, but it was a scout knife for all intents and purposes. One spear shaped blade, screw driver/bottle opener, can opener, and awl. It even had a shackle for attaching a dummy cord so it wouldn't get lost. A scout knife by any other name.

I carried that MIL-K-818D knife through a tour in the Southeast Asia fiasco some call the Vietnam war, and it was good. Then in Germany, in a little knife shop in Rothenburg, I discovered SAK's. My world was never to be the same again. There were big SAK's, little SAK's, and I left the shop with a small assortment of SAK's. A huntsmen, a Pioneer, and a secretary for just slicing.

It didn't take long to find out that I didn't like the huntsman. I didn't really need a saw, and it was too think for my fatigue pants pocket. The pioneer was just like my scout knife and my MIL-K-818D. It got to be my first pick of pocket knives. But what annoyed my about the huntsman was the back tools. The awl was like floppy. if you leaned to much into the drilling motion, it moved over to the other way a bit like it was unstable, for lack of a better word. It just didn't work out as well at its intended task as the inline awl on the pioneer. And it's position on the knife didn't make it work as well as an alternate cutting edge like on the pioneer. The corkscrew was just okay, as I'm not a wine drinker but stick to beer and/or whiskey. Just didn't need a corkscrew that bad.

Then I discovered the tinker. I liked the tinker, it had an extra knife blade, and still had an awl even if it was on the backside. I thought the dedicated Philips driver would be handy, and it was for light duty, but soon I discovered a flaw. A potential fatal flaw.

I'd bought a slightly used 1966 VW bug. The former owner was another young soldier that was shipping out and he sold it. I was getting his old plates off he car and the screws were a bit rusty. I was using the tinker and a small pliers. As they were rusty, it was hard to unscrew them from the nuts on the back of the plate mounting, and had to put some elbow grease into it. Halfway through the job, notice a weird feel in the tinker as I twisted, and found out the Phillips driver was now having almost a quarter turn of 'slop' in the tool. The pin that was holding it had twisted and deformed and pushed out the liners and had almost had come part under the twisting torque. Not good.

This was all a longtime ago, and I'd almost forgot why I had a slight mistrust of tinkers. Yesterday I get a call from my grandson in California, and in the course of conversation he told me about a project he was working on with a friend, and his tinker was being used. Some wood screws being put into some treated lumber for the outdoors had done the some thing. The fatal flaw in the design had got Ryan's tinker. He noticed the slop before it got too bad, and finished the job using the larger flathead screw driver/bottle opener using the inner corner like it was a combo tool. The flathead used that way suffered no damage.

Apparently the back tool pivots are notably weaker than the regular tools, let alone the tool rivets on the alox models like the pioneer. So with the awls not as good as the inline, and the Phillips driver being a weak point, why bother with back tools? I think about the few decades of steady use my old Wenger SI has stood up to, and I have no complaints, and its never suffered any damage in spite of me asking more from it that it was designed for. Like the army issued MIL-K-818D, it seems pretty bomb prof.

Maybe the Boy Scout knife had it right in the beginning.

[Rich S]

IMHO, you and son were pushing the awl and phillips beyond their limits. I also sharpen the awl on my Tinker (works just fine). None of the SAK tools are meant to replace full size screw drivers, etc. I love my Tinker, but also have a newish military style scout. I doubt it's tools would stand up for full size tools either, just MHO. To each his own preference.

Rich

[39hotrod]

   Rich..

[Don Pablo]

You're right, cbl51.

Here, prompted by the backside Philips on a 111mm SAK breaking, Mr. Whippy tested a Tinker. The backside Philips on it broke with less than 10 Nm of torque on it. That's about 7.4 ft-lb.
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,22526.msg416821.html#msg416821

Then he did the same test with the screwdriver on the Bottle opener. It started twisting by 20 Nm of torque (14-15 ft-lb) and broke at 30 Nm (20-22 ft-lb).
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,22565.msg417176.html#msg417176
Important to note that the metal tip broke, not the tang, liners or the pin. 

[cbl51]

IMHO, you and son were pushing the awl and phillips beyond their limits. I also sharpen the awl on my Tinker (works just fine). None of the SAK tools are meant to replace full size screw drivers, etc. I love my Tinker, but also have a newish military style scout. I doubt it's tools would stand up for full size tools either, just MHO. To each his own preference.

Rich

I wasn't using the tinker for anything that I hadn't done similar jobs with the issued camillus MIL-K knife or the pioneer. The fact that my Wenger SI has lasted over 25 years used in similar situations, just means to me that the backside tools are not as string as the main tools. I've never had a problem with a pioneer or even a celidor recruit. YMMV, but the backside tools are a flaw. If they put a backside driver, they should make sure it stands up to use beyond very light use.

[cbl51]

You're right, cbl51.

Here, prompted by the backside Philips on a 111mm SAK breaking, Mr. Whippy tested a Tinker. The backside Philips on it broke with less than 10 Nm of torque on it. That's about 7.4 ft-lb.
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,22526.msg416821.html#msg416821

Then he did the same test with the screwdriver on the Bottle opener. It started twisting by 20 Nm of torque (14-15 ft-lb) and broke at 30 Nm (20-22 ft-lb).
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,22565.msg417176.html#msg417176
Important to note that the metal tip broke, not the tang, liners or the pin. 

Thank you sooooo much for that info!!!

The fact that the tinker took less than half the torque of the bottle opener/driver is amazing.

[Rich S]

I've used my 25+ year old Tinker for all sorts of things, but it doesn't replace full size tools, and has served me well. Everyone has their own personal ways of using their knives.

Rich

[ElevenBlade]

Nice write-up as always CBL.

It seems that your early experience with the in line awl sealed the deal for you.  I had a couple of 91mm SAKs in the beginning of my story and I never got a lot of use out of the backspring tools, so I never took them to the limit. It wasn't until years later when I got an Alox Soldier that I started using an awl... at all. 

After that, I backtracked and started using the 91mm awl with  caution.  I'm always careful with torquing tools after separating the liners on the Soldier by removing a staple. (not to worry, it's back to normal)

My gripe with backspring tools is more about usefulness and decision inertia.  The parcel hook hasn't been useful to me, and if you ask me to decide between the Phillips and the corkscrew - I choose the can opener.

[Myron]

Although I love the Tinker and have very pleasant memories of carrying one everyday in high school, I must agree that it is of limited utility.  The reason most often cited is the reach/angle, since it's at 90 degrees to the long dimension of the SAK.  But I also find it ironic that it's this very T-handle design that makes it possible for it to be over-torqued.  I have occasionally had to put an open ended wrench on the shaft of a real screwdriver to loosen a stuck screw, and one time, my up-until-then-trusty Craftsman screwdriver actually shattered. 

I always prefer a corkscrew, since at the very least you can use it as a docking station for the micro-screwdriver, and it also has uses for pulling avocado pits and opening pickle jars, not mention its namesake use which we use on a weekly basis in my house. 

As others have said, different strokes for different folks.  Thanks for posting CBL51.

[Sos24]

I have never had a backside tool fail, but I also don’t use them that much. 

In actual use, even the backside phillips isn’t as useful for me because of its location in the middle instead of an end.  There frequently isn’t sufficient room.

In some ways I like the 93mm SAK sleek look a feel with no back tools, but I hate the limited offerings and that I loose the scales tools.  At a minimum they need a Farmer-X.

[Sneider]

I don't like backside tools either. Many make the knife more uncomfortable to hold, are hardly useful or even unusable (my opinion). This is also a reason why I like the 93mm series so much.

[Rich S]

Vic has made a variety of Pioneer-X models, why not put an inline Phillips??
Look at the Alox Mini-Champ, Vic could do it.
Rich

[aerojet]

My vote is for in line Phillips. That Phillips on the back is hard to work with and the SAK is always getting in the way of turning. You get about 1/4 turn then need to reposition the thing for another bite on the screw. Backside tools make for a slippery grip. The things round out the SAK and you do not get as tight of a grip on the SAK. Just my opinion. I usually usually don't use the back side tools, which is why I carry a Wenger, limited back side to awl, and corkscrew.

AJ

[MadPlumbarian]

I’m not to fond of the backside tools, when I was 12 my grandfather bought me my first sak, a champion, and of course being a kid you gotta try all tools out and one of the first things I did was use the corkscrew, only thing was I drilled it into a tree, and not being so soft of a  wood wasn’t to smart, it snapped the tool right at the base, well, you learn..
anyway after joining here I learned about the alox side of sak and I like them better, no backside tools and even better I like the metal.. just they don’t have all the goodies that the larger ones have, so I had one custom made buy one of our own, again no backside tools but I got that Philips! Yet now victorinox is putting out the FarmerX this year and it’s pretty close to what I had made, just no Philips, so maybe next year? Guess we’ll see..
JR

[Storm]

I have never had a backside tool fail, but I also don’t use them that much. 

In actual use, even the backside phillips isn’t as useful for me because of its location in the middle instead of an end.  There frequently isn’t sufficient room.

In some ways I like the 93mm SAK sleek look a feel with no back tools, but I hate the limited offerings and that I loose the scales tools.  At a minimum they need a Farmer-X.

Ask and ye shall receive,  it being released later this year I believe 

[Storm]

I'm also firmly in Carls camp regarding back tools. I much prefer the smooth feel and find the backside tools much more fiddly to use than the utility they provide.
The inline dedicated all on the Pioneer is vastly better at drilling/ reaming for my uses than the reamer/awl on tinkers/Spartans etc . But then again I've never needed to sew heavy duty stuff together,  so for someone else it may be their go to tool. That said the small blade is the one tool I miss most when carrying the Pioneer
Regarding breaking tools, I would be so bold as to venture that  most of us know damn well when we are asking much more of a tool than it is designed for. My take is that you are of course free to do so, but never forget that when you throw your money on the table,  you dont everytime get it back, and you went into it knowing that.
It'd be a boring word if we were all the same eh? 

[Sawl Goodman]

Largely agree with the OP. I do like to have a corkscrew at hand, though. I only have SAKs with the back side Phillips for their handling comfort. IME the tip of the can opener works just fine except in cases of extreme torque (apply too much and the tip twists before the pin does) and where deep access is needed. And the back side awl is a miserable thing compared to the 93mm one. I can see a way of improving it a little - at the cost of the nail nick.

The only thing I wish for on the Pioneer is a small blade in addition to the awl and openers. I find the Pioneer's blade too thick and wedgy sometimes. It's even thicker along the spine than the 111mm blade. The 58mm blade on my keyring is too flexible for my liking.

I'm also firmly in Carls camp regarding back tools. I much prefer the smooth feel and find the backside tools much more fiddly to use than the utility they provide.
The inline dedicated all on the Pioneer is vastly better at drilling/ reaming for my uses than the reamer/awl on tinkers/Spartans etc . But then again I've never needed to sew heavy duty stuff together,  so for someone else it may be their go to tool. That said the small blade is the one tool I miss most when carrying the Pioneer
Regarding breaking tools, I would be so bold as to venture that  most of us know damn well when we are asking much more of a tool than it is designed for. My take is that you are of course free to do so, but never forget that when you throw your money on the table,  you dont everytime get it back, and you went into it knowing that.
It'd be a boring word if we were all the same eh? 

Agreed and well said!

[ElevenBlade]

Largely agree with the OP. I do like to have a corkscrew at hand, though. I only have SAKs with the back side Phillips for their handling comfort. IME the tip of the can opener works just fine except in cases of extreme torque (apply too much and the tip twists before the pin does) and where deep access is needed. And the back side awl is a miserable thing compared to the 93mm one. I can see a way of improving it a little - at the cost of the nail nick.

The only thing I wish for on the Pioneer is a small blade in addition to the awl and openers. I find the Pioneer's blade too thick and wedgy sometimes. It's eventhicker along the spine than the 111mm blade. The 58mm blade on my keyring is too flexible for my liking.

Agreed and well said!

I hadn't noticed this. I need to pay attention to it's performance in kitchen duties.

 Being overly thick can be problematic - it's been noted that Bushcraft fixed blades will break an apple in two, rather than slice them. 

If I could get a small blade on a 93mm.... Oh the places I could go.

[Storm]

If I could get a small blade on a 93mm.... Oh the places I could go.

You and me both brother !
(although I think there'd be more than just us two fizzing at the bung for such a knife  )

[nate j]

On a day-to-day basis I find the back tools (and scale tools) just add too much versatility and capability to a SAK to pass up, though I strongly prefer the corkscrew over the backside Philips.

However, if I were headed somewhere (especially for an extended period of time) where a replacement SAK might be difficult or impossible to come by (and or an "every ounce counts" situation where I might not have a backup handy), I might very well accept less versatility in exchange for the increased ruggedness of the 93mm line.

[nate j]

If I could get a small blade on a 93mm.... Oh the places I could go.

I might be missing something here, but I'm assuming you are aware of the current 93mm models with the electrician's blade or the pruner blade, as well as the now discontinued Pioneer Settler with the small spear/pen blade?

[Brock O Lee]

Yup, gimme a 93mm any day of the week. The 91mm’s just feel flimsy. I carry a 58mm for the scale tools.

[Storm]

I might be missing something here, but I'm assuming you are aware of the current 93mm models with the electrician's blade or the pruner blade, as well as the now discontinued Pioneer Settler with the small spear/pen blade?

I am aware of them,  but I'd be after the small, and more importantly thin blade of the 91mm range as it's such a wee scalpel compared to the big chunky 93mm main blade. The hang up for me would be that I make extensive usage of the small screwdriver tip on the can opener for my Phillips screw needs . Cant have the cake and eat it I suppose

[ElevenBlade]

I might be missing something here, but I'm assuming you are aware of the current 93mm models with the electrician's blade or the pruner blade, as well as the now discontinued Pioneer Settler with the small spear/pen blade?

I wasn't aware of the Settler. But yes, it's the small spear point, razor sharp, super thin blade that I like.  Though by force of habit I almost never use or carry one outside the house.

Edit:

I realized that my response, word choices, and sentence structure were almost identical to Storm's... So I made some adjustments.   

[ElevenBlade]

You and me both brother !
(although I think there'd be more than just us two fizzing at the bung for such a knife  )

 

I have to say though... After fussing over my neglected Compact today... It's a trade off between elegance and design... Or utility and versatility.  There's just something about the availability of tweezers and a corkscrew, and the shiny sleek scales on the 91mm. 

[Sos24]

Ask and ye shall receive,  it being released later this year I believe 

I saw that, although I was mentioning that because the huntsman/fieldmaster seem a popular toolset.  The one I would really love to see is adding the magnifying glass and inline Phillips to the Pioneer-X, but I doubt that is as popular of a toolset especially for those liking the more ruggedness of the 93mm.

[ElevenBlade]

I saw that, although I was mentioning that because the huntsman/fieldmaster seem a popular toolset.  The one I would really love to see is adding the magnifying glass and inline Phillips to the Pioneer-X, but I doubt that is as popular of a toolset especially for those liking the more ruggedness of the 93mm.

I'm looking forward to the Farmer X and at the same time I'm not...  I think it is going to be too heavy to EDC, and at the same time make every other SAK I have suddenly, undeniably, unfortunately obselete.

[nate j]

I'm looking forward to the Farmer X and at the same time I'm not...  I think it is going to be too heavy to EDC...

Let's do some SAK math (with apologies to our friends who use the metric system, all weights below are in ounces):

Weight of 93mm Scissors Layer = Weight of Pioneer X - Weight of Pioneer = 3.3 - 2.5 = 0.8

Estimated Weight of Farmer X = Weight of Farmer + Weight of 93mm Scissors Layer = 3 + 0.8 = 3.8

So, at 3.8 ounces, the Farmer X is heavier than the Huntsman, Fieldmaster, and Explorer, at 3.4, 3.5, and 3.6 ounces, respectively, but not by much.  It would actually be exactly the same as the Mountaineer, and lighter than the Deluxe Tinker at 4.3 ounces.

Obviously whether or not a knife is too heavy to EDC is an individual decision.  However, for anyone already carrying a 4-layer 91mm SAK (even the lightest, the Huntsman), I don't think the Farmer X would be much of an adjustment. 

[cbl51]

Let's do some SAK math (with apologies to our friends who use the metric system, all weights below are in ounces):

Weight of 93mm Scissors Layer = Weight of Pioneer X - Weight of Pioneer = 3.3 - 2.5 = 0.8

Estimated Weight of Farmer X = Weight of Farmer + Weight of 93mm Scissors Layer = 3 + 0.8 = 3.8

So, at 3.8 ounces, the Farmer X is heavier than the Huntsman, Fieldmaster, and Explorer, at 3.4, 3.5, and 3.6 ounces, respectively, but not by much.  It would actually be exactly the same as the Mountaineer, and lighter than the Deluxe Tinker at 4.3 ounces.

Obviously whether or not a knife is too heavy to EDC is an individual decision.  However, for anyone already carrying a 4-layer 91mm SAK (even the lightest, the Huntsman), I don't think the Farmer X would be much of an adjustment.

 

Plus its got one other thing going for it;

It's Alox!

[ElevenBlade]

Plus its got one other thing going for it;

It's Alox!

Indeed, there are several things to like about it!  Alox, stronger tools, Alox, durable construction, Alox, no backspring tools, Alox, wider blade, Alox. 😀

Let's do some SAK math (with apologies to our friends who use the metric system, all weights below are in ounces):

Weight of 93mm Scissors Layer = Weight of Pioneer X - Weight of Pioneer = 3.3 - 2.5 = 0.8

Estimated Weight of Farmer X = Weight of Farmer + Weight of 93mm Scissors Layer = 3 + 0.8 = 3.8

So, at 3.8 ounces, the Farmer X is heavier than the Huntsman, Fieldmaster, and Explorer, at 3.4, 3.5, and 3.6 ounces, respectively, but not by much.  It would actually be exactly the same as the Mountaineer, and lighter than the Deluxe Tinker at 4.3 ounces.

Obviously whether or not a knife is too heavy to EDC is an individual decision.  However, for anyone already carrying a 4-layer 91mm SAK (even the lightest, the Huntsman), I don't think the Farmer X would be much of an adjustment.

Brilliant!  Now SAK math is something I can get my head around.  So you're saying:

~Fx = F + (Px - P)

Makes sense to me!

Somehow I've found the difference between the PioneerX and the Pioneer to be significant enough that I started using a suspension clip.  Shape may play into that more than weight alone. It's most certainly going to turn sideways in the pocket.

Still.... We're going to have to get one... Won't we?