Victorinox or sak

[Andetto]

Hi

Should all the models of victorinox pocket knives be called army knives?
Isnt that only true for the (91, 93 100 and 111) 
restricted only to 2(3) layers, that  were actually issued to the swiss army?
Are we right when we call a classic, waiter, swisschamp,...... SAKs?

The brand name is Victorinox.


Forgive my if this has been discussed before.
Regards

[pfrsantos]

I think it's one of those cases where you use a description of a model to refer to an entire brand. Victorinox started making the Swiss Army knives. After that, any new model, in whatever size, ended up being called a Swiss Army knife. It's awlso easier to say "SAK", everyone knows what type of tool you're talking about.

 

[Tasky]

You have two basic groups - Soldiers' knives and Officers' knives.
Soldiers are the models that are officially issued to the Swiss Army soldiers. The others are essentially different models of Officers' knife, which were originally intended for private purchase by officers rather than being issued, which is why the blade tang has "Officier Suisse" stamped on it.

The term Swiss Army Knife was more of an appellation for those who could not pronounce Offiziersmesser, but has subsequently been trademarked by Victorinox, so is also a perfectly valid term for any of their models.

[Farmer X]

  As I see it, "Victorinox" and "Swiss Army knife" are inseparably linked.

[dks]

It is also language dependent.

In many regions the description is "Swiss knife / penknife" which encompasses all variations

[Lemonizer]

Here, we tend to call any knife that got multiple tools a "couteau suisse" which translates to "Swiss knife". 

[Tasky]

Here, we tend to call any knife that got multiple tools a "couteau suisse" which translates to "Swiss knife". 

Which is why anything can be called a Swiss army knife, but only a Victorinox can be officially marketed as a Swiss Army™ knife!

[kamakiri]

Should all the models of victorinox pocket knives be called army knives?

No, they shouldn’t. But nothing a bunch of us or anything anyone says ever will change the way we use the term. It’s globally iconic and embedded into several languages. 

Try explaining it to a stranger…that your ‘Swiss Army Knife’ is actually a ‘Victorinox knife’. See how far you get with that.

It’s only slightly less pedantic than my trying to get the ‘Artisan’ referred by its original and correct name of Craftsman when not referred by its production code 136ka.  And don’t get me started on what is and more importantly isn’t a Golfer. 

[hsherzfeld]

Victorinox has two knife categories on their website: "Swiss Army Knives" and "Cutlery". All of their pocket knives are listed under "Swiss Army Knives". Clearly, Victorinox considers all of their pocket knives to be SAKs.

[Andetto]

No, they shouldn’t. But nothing a bunch of us or anything anyone says ever will change the way we use the term. It’s globally iconic and embedded into several languages. 

Try explaining it to a stranger…that your ‘Swiss Army Knife’ is actually a ‘Victorinox knife’. See how far you get with that.

It’s only slightly less pedantic than my trying to get the ‘Artisan’ referred by its original and correct name of Craftsman when not referred by its production code 136ka.  And don’t get me started on what is and more importantly isn’t a Golfer. 

I see.
This reminds me of a case around here, all 4wd vehicles are Jeep. One time it tried to explain that Jeep is a brand not a category. The best progress I got is, Mercedes jeep, Land cruiser jeep,.....
 

[kamakiri]

I see.
This reminds me of a case around here, all 4wd vehicles are Jeep. One time it tried to explain that Jeep is a brand not a category. The best progress I got is, Mercedes jeep, Land cruiser jeep,.....
 

 

Sometimes, I try to correct the redundancy of people saying ATM Machine. Gotta ride in my Ford Jeep. 

[Sawl Goodman]

As Tasky posted,"Swiss Army knife" was the name US soldiers gave to them during WW2 because "Offiziersmesser" was a bit of an unfamiliar mouthful. A fair enough translation I think, although I'd prefer "Swiss pocket knife" or just "Swiss knife" as Europeans call them for the non-issued models. Too bad history hasn't agreed, and that Victorinox grabbed the ball and ran with it!

Fortunately I haven't seen much of it here, but what really makes me wince is when new SAK owners talk excitedly of their (say) "Swiss Army Huntsman", instead of their "Victorinox Huntsman". It's like calling the blade a "knife", something I also see elsewhere on the web.

[Domino1]

I tend to think of all of the line as Swiss Army Knives rather than just the Soldier or Officer's models.  Victorinox was smart to apply the brand across the entire line. 

[Tasky]

Because Swiss Army knife is both a noun and an adjective, it's kind-of a syllogism for the SAK-fan community, really...

X no of models are soldatenmesser (A).
Y no of models are offiziersmesser (B).

All A and all B are Swiss Army knives (C).
All A and all B* are Victorinox (V) models, therefore all Victorinox models are C.
All V are also trademarked, so are Swiss Army™ knives (C™).

However, Wenger (W) also make Swiss Army knives, but while they are C, they are not V... but they are owned by V, so are also C™.
Other companies have made and still do make multi-bladed knives, which may be referred to as Swiss Army knives, so are also C but cannot be C™.

All A and B are C, but not all C are A or B.
V and W are all C and are all C™, but not all C are C™.

Add to this some other variables, such as whether a bladeless model is still actually a "knife" and you have a whole weekend of wrangling and weighing-up, that will leave you flummoxed, foxed, floored, fazed and fogged!!

[Farmer X]

Try explaining it to a stranger…that your ‘Swiss Army Knife’ is actually a ‘Victorinox knife’. See how far you get with that.

During a recent trip to the Post Office, I overheard another guy tell the clerk he was mailing a knife for a warranty claim. We chatted after that, and I mentioned that I'd soon find out how good Victorinox's repair department was. He was not familiar with the name, soI told him they make Swiss Army knives. He then knew exactly what I was talking about.

[hsherzfeld]

I see.
This reminds me of a case around here, all 4wd vehicles are Jeep. One time it tried to explain that Jeep is a brand not a category. The best progress I got is, Mercedes jeep, Land cruiser jeep,.....
 

Basically we're talking about genericized trademarks here. Like saying "Kleenex" for facial tissues, "Bandaids" for adhesive bandages, "Scotch Tape" for cellophane tape, "Sharpie" for permanent markers, "Vise-Grips" for locking pliers...and probably the most prominent example in (some parts of) the US, "Coke" for any type of soda-pop.

I personally consider any Victorinox or Wenger pocket knife to be a Swiss Army Knife (or SAK).

Victorinox or Wenger handles that contain tools but no knife blade are arguably not pocket knives, so I think of them as Swiss Army Knifeless (also SAK).

Interestingly, pocket knives with multiple tools were often referred to as "Boy Scout knives" in the US, even in military documents, prior to the popularity of Swiss Army Knives post-WWII.