Pioneer dating

[proletenstahl]

So as not to clutter up the new knife thread, here's the Pioneer I just got and would love to figure out the date of.

Fronta's Pioneer Knowledge Book (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,18265.0.html) was where I started, but I'd appreciate the experts' input. 

[proletenstahl]

Thanks in advance!

[proletenstahl]

 

[proletenstahl]

Needless to say, let me know if you need more angles.

[kamakiri]

  Thanks for posting all the different views! 

I’ll post what I think later, after others have a chance to look. We’re heading into a long weekend here in the states…so maybe Tuesday?

[proletenstahl]

No hurry! Not knowing exactly how old it is isn't life threatening.

[kamakiri]

No hurry! Not knowing exactly how old it is isn't life threatening.

 

…you never know.

I’d ask for a close up shot of the vssr tang stamp, please. Might help me split some hairs. 

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Why would you even look in here? 

Juuust kidding. 

Seems pretty clear that it’s from the ‘80s side of the ‘74-‘84 range estimate from the previous post and earlier pictures.

With some of the finish and machining visible, I’m fairly confident it’s from the latter end of that split and is from the mid-‘80s.

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Using some of the very specific tooling marks, it looks like it’s ‘84-‘85…and I think more to the ‘85 side before seeing the vssr tang up close.

 I know this goes against the thinking that brass liners ended in ‘84…but absent of examples of small v vssr tangs and nickel silver liners/spacers, I’d have to assume that may simply be an error in the ‘known’ or commonly accepted chronology. And if that’s not the case, then there should be enough examples out there to fill production quantities for both ‘85 and ‘86…

 

[proletenstahl]

I'm glad someone's splitting hairs. The blade was DULL when I got it and now it's almost usable.

Today's a holiday here, so I can get all the angles you need.

[kamakiri]

Can you crop in a little closer? Like this?

[kamakiri]

Or under magnification?

(I’m getting so confused…your pictures I saved have a ‘future’ time stamp…so they’re appearing *after* mine on my phone. Lol)

[proletenstahl]

I may have to borrow a better camera! 

Is there a specific letter or pair you need a closer look at? All I have for magnification is a loupe.

[proletenstahl]

Here's Stempel-5 again, but blown up on the computer. I don't have a macro lens, so I can't get physically closer.

[kamakiri]

I may have to borrow a better camera! 

Is there a specific letter or pair you need a closer look at? All I have for magnification is a loupe.

Thanks for the added pics. Still helpful. A small loupe is all I used too. I hate how my newer phone processes pics though. Ugh. Smooths over all the fine detail and keeps switching lenses. Had to grab my older one.

Maybe try for some with the left side VSSR in focus and light getting inside the letters.

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I can clearly see the similarities in knives that are ‘84-‘85…so it definitely confirms my initial estimates. Some of the detail does lead me toward a split that is either late-‘84 or early-‘85. But a close look into the tang details could or should give some good weight.

Edit:
This is why it’s so much easier to do this sort of analysis with the knife in hand. Without the quantities of knives in my collection it probably wouldn’t have been possible to get to clear annual divisions and certainly not anything finer than that like in the ‘60s through ‘80s. With enough experience however, it’s possible to then analyze a knife with enough or good enough pictures using my specific methods.

For the naysayers…do you doubt that a forensics expert can match bullets fired from the same weapon? 

[proletenstahl]

More like this?

[kamakiri]

More like this?

Bingo!   

Now before I make a composite (maybe with annotations) to compare pics…any observations (from anyone) about anything similar or different from the pics I posted here in this thread?

[McStitchy]

I'm not an expert here really, but just from my experience of hunting on ebay and my few own pieces I immediately thought about early 80's just from the tool markings 

With Kamakiri you've got the right man at it Edelstahl 

[kamakiri]

Thanks for the vote of confidence ’Stichy!

Knives from the same calendar year tend to have something on them that is really very similar. Depending on how similar the models are, the sameness can often be found in a few things…and when they’re really close…almost everything will look like they were stamped and produced very close together.

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I'm thinking this confirms 1985 construction for this knife. I’d feel better about making this assertion with the knife in my hands, but the relative clarity of the tang stamp details and what I know of die and tooling wear through this period, I’m still comfortable doing so.

Proving otherwise would require samples that are similar enough, but clearly dated to ‘84 or ‘86.

This is what I was zeroing in on to compare to a known knife:

.

[proletenstahl]

Amazing! I only just now noticed the hidden content. In skimming the thread for replies, I had repeatedly passed right over it.
 

That's a lot more specific than I was expecting. THANK YOU! 

[kamakiri]

That's a lot more specific than I was expecting. THANK YOU! 

 

You’re very welcome!  And as I’ve said in the past…credit also needs to go to those who ask the excellent questions. You’ve provided me an excellent project to work on and show some of my methodology beyond my previous explanations in words. More importantly to me, a chance to prove that my methods work. Big thanks for that!!! 

Amazing! I only just now noticed the hidden content. In skimming the thread for replies, I had repeatedly passed right over it.
 

Don’t feel bad…others have done exactly the same in the past. I should probably precede the buttons with big ‘click here’ notices and arrows and such. That’s not me. 

…

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So there it is…also a formal challenge to the thinking that brass liners ended in ‘84 for the Pioneer line and other civilian 93mm.

[kamakiri]

I have one more thing to thank you for:

Follow up pictures.


Without the excellent questions, and in some cases like this, follow up pictures are critical to my process and more importantly providing a ‘blind’ example that I did not provide or inspect myself in person. That would skew the process a bit toward just showing that these details would require direct observation to be accurately classified.

There are many times my picture requests fall on deaf ears or are met lack of interest or outright doubt. So thanks also for not being that way too. 

[SteveC]

Amazing! I only just now noticed the hidden content. In skimming the thread for replies, I had repeatedly passed right over it.
 

That can be a problem with hiding content for no apparent reason 

[kamakiri]

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< Looks for an Ignore button. No luck. 

 

[Ritornello]

Tang stamps from a 1985 Vic soldier. Hope this helps.

[kamakiri]

Tang stamps from a 1985 Vic soldier. Hope this helps.

Absolutely does…Thanks, Rit! 

Cropped in, the same imperfections can be seen in the OP’s knife. More ‘proof’ that it is also ‘85 production.

 

[Ritornello]

Absolutely does…Thanks, Rit! 

Cropped in, the same imperfections can be seen in the OP’s knife. More ‘proof’ that it is also ‘85 production.

 

Looks like a match! I used to think that those imperfections were the result of wear of grinding away of material when I first started collecting saks but since then I've seen so many with the exact same wear patterns that I started to conjecture that it was from the factory.

[kamakiri]

Looks like a match! I used to think that those imperfections were the result of wear of grinding away of material when I first started collecting saks but since then I've seen so many with the exact same wear patterns that I started to conjecture that it was from the factory.

  And there’s a lot of such items!

This particular phase of wear is pretty well sandwiched in AFAIK. I only have one ‘86 93mm, and the tang clearly uses a newly re-tooled stamp/die. Not refreshed or cleaned up…new.

Now if I was really into 93mm…I suppose the thing to find for me would be the civilian version of what I know to exist for ‘86.  But I already have enough other areas to ‘focus’ on…this would be too many right now.

I would ask anyone actually willing to participate and further the Pioneer dating knowledge base to find their Pioneers that may have this later small-v tang stamp and post them here.