Australian Knife Laws

[Valkie]

I’m curious how many of these were run-of-the-mill pocket knives.

If we give this sort of vapid nonsense the standing of a logical argument, nearly anything can be justified.
 

Interesting you say that.

Recently a young "Disturbed" boy, took a large kitchen knife off the shelf in a Coles supermarket and proceeded to stab a worker in the back multiple times.
She survived.
The boy was arrested.
Coles has now taken the sale of ALL knives out of their stores.

Wandind didn't help here at all.

The nutcase that went on the rampage some time ago also used a large kitchen knife and when the weapon was knocked from his hand, he ran into another store and grabbed another one.

Police have had to resort to terminal force several times in the last few years to stop a knife wielding attacker, always large kitchen knives.

The common theme here isnt that they were all using a specific type of knife, although large kitchen knives seem to be the weapon of choice, but that all the offenders had a mental problem.

More and more draconian laws around knives isnt cutting it, no pun intended.
Better mental health help would be more effective.
As would more effective punishment for knife crime.

The whole intent of this OP was to point out that we, as knife owners and users of knives, could eventually see the removal of these very useful tools for no good reason.

Knives have been carried since man first learned to chip away at a stone and make a sharp tool.
Then he put a handle on it to make it even more useful.
these first "knives" weren't weapons, they were tools, use as a weapon came later.
But there has been an evolution of "knives" over the last 40 to 50 years.
They have become very useful and multifaceted tools that can do everything from sawing through wood to doing up screws.
Unfortunately, some people use them as weapons, but there needs to be a clear distinction between "tools" and "weapons".

I see, as the laws become more and more draconian, we will lose the ability to carry anything even vaguely resembling a knife.
And even taking knives from Australians for use anywhere, even in the home.
I note now that many meat packaging offerings these days are already cut up.
How long before ALL meat products are pre-cut so a knife isn't necessary.
And then Banned from use.

Sounds far fetched?
look back a few years at just what is now illegal in every country.
Look at how things that were considered normal are now banned.
There are new laws being introduced every day, something like 1 new law every week, every week of the year.
Can we ever understand and be aware of all these laws?
remember "ignorance of the law is no excuse" in every country.
So its quite possible that ALL of us are unknowingly breaking some laws that we are not even aware exist.

And it starts in one country and eventually spreads.

I have gone on too long.
Knives to me are tools. Multitools doubly so.
But wea re relinquishing our rights to have tools for reasons that make no real sense.

End of rant.

[matzesu]

Would something like the Roxon Flex work on the Australian Knife Law? : You carry the Tool whitouth the Blade attached outside and when you are on the place where you need the Blade you can just attache it again, or would this not work as the Blade itself is also forbidden even if its not attached to an Handle?

I plan this for the German Knife Law, lets see how this works ..

Sure the Roxons are not that High Quality than Leatherman or Victorinox, but they also work fine ..

It is a bit like in Germany: Most Crimes are made whit Knifes that are not touched by the Law: Big Kitchen Knifes .. 

[Valkie]

Would something like the Roxon Flex work on the Australian Knife Law? : You carry the Tool whitouth the Blade attached outside and when you are on the place where you need the Blade you can just attache it again, or would this not work as the Blade itself is also forbidden even if its not attached to an Handle?

I plan this for the German Knife Law, lets see how this works ..

Sure the Roxons are not that High Quality than Leatherman or Victorinox, but they also work fine ..

It is a bit like in Germany: Most Crimes are made whit Knifes that are not touched by the Law: Big Kitchen Knifes ..

From what I can make out, and have seen enforced in Australian airports.
ANY tool is considered a weapon.

Nail clippers are confiscated as weapons and you are chastised and threatened with arrest.
A small pair of pliers/ screwdrivers as a keyring was confiscated at the airport from me just two years ago. (see picture)

Screwdrivers, nail files and even some belt buckles are NO GO.

So its not just bladed knives/ tools that are considered a weapon.

I dont want to carry a weapon, I just want to have a handy tool available, when I need it.

[Vidar]

But wea re relinquishing our rights to have tools for reasons that make no real sense.

I believe the ones introducing stricter laws and regulations do it because they think it will help reduce knife related crime. Whether it does, and whether they draw the right distinctions between different kinds of knives and users, are certainly up for discussion.

Even if it does work to some extent that possible gain should be balanced against the lost utility for ordinary law obeying knife users. I think too many argue against knives without any regard for this latter bit. For some the logic seems to be any knife removed, from anyone at any cost, is somehow reducing knife issues. But taking the knife away from a normal user is not reducing any crime. Thus I think life is more complex than that single minded argument, and that the discussion should reflect that.

As an extreme parallel lets take traffic:  Every year hundreds of thousands of people are killed every year worldwide in traffic. Many times more are maimed or affected as family and friends. Then there are pollution and other effects as well. Yet, we as a society does not work to ban traffic or cars as such. Like many areas in life we accept there is a risk, and as a society the utility vs loss has been deemed to be at an acceptable balance despite the human losses. And utility here includes just driving around without a cause if you want too - the freedom to do so having some worth in itself for people.

It might not be the best example, and might hit too close to home for many (sorry), but I do miss some of that balanced utility/ loss/ restrictions discussion when it comes to the freedom to carry knives and other tools. (As a side note, if we didn't already have traffic does anyone think it could be introduced today?)

[Vidar]

From what I can make out, and have seen enforced in Australian airports.

Sorry to hear it has come to that. Somehow Australia seemed like a sane sanctuary of yesteryear when I visited last. That is some years ago now though.

[matzesu]

Ok, even bladeless tools count as weapons sounds like its might be the worst Knifelaw ever ;(
And i live in Germany and think about my Roxon Flex Companion Plans and even keep the One Hand Open Blade which i can easely remove bevor i go somewhere where Knifes are not allowed .. (it depends a bit how easy the Blade from the Flex Plier can get fold out when i put only long tools on this side)

This means this Upcoming Bladeless SAK which was anounced some time ago would also be not allowed ..

How do they fix there Road Train in the Outback then?

[Valkie]

Ok, even bladeless tools count as weapons sounds like its might be the worst Knifelaw ever ;(
And i live in Germany and think about my Roxon Flex Companion Plans and even keep the One Hand Open Blade which i can easely remove bevor i go somewhere where Knifes are not allowed .. (it depends a bit how easy the Blade from the Flex Plier can get fold out when i put only long tools on this side)

This means this Upcoming Bladeless SAK which was anounced some time ago would also be not allowed ..

How do they fix there Road Train in the Outback then?

Funny you should ask that.

Just a few months ago I took my caravan for a nice long drive int outback Australia to a tiny little place called Wyandra QLD, look it up, its not as remote as some places, but its a long way from help.

Anyhoo, While making my way there, a Road Train (small one only 4 trailers) had a breakdown.
I pulled over to see if I could be of any help (as we tend to do in Australia.
I carry a fair amount of tools and can carry out most repairs and even undertake serious repairs when required.

But what I carry was pathetic compared to the TOOLBOX this guy had, he could strip down his truck and rebuild it with what he had.
But this repair was a fairly simple one, his throttle cable had come loose and he was reconnecting it.
From what he said, he had done this several times already and was going to buy a new one when he got to his next stop.

Guess what he was using to fix it?

A Leatherman WAVE.
With a toolbox most mechanics would drool over, and he was using a simple Leatherman.
Makes me proud to be a multitool user.

[IMR4198]

   I like real-life stories.  Best wishes.  G

[Valkie]

Well, if you thought the Australian knife laws couldn't get any more draconian, you would be wrong.

Just today the Victorian grubberment has introduced, as they say it (State’s ban on item ‘destroying lives’)
To be more specific, a ban on machete

Victorian Premier Jacinta Allan made the announcement on Thursday, with those carrying a machete to face up to two years in jail or fines of more than $47,000 from September 1 this year.

People will be able to dispose of their machetes in amnesty bins between September 1 to November 30 without punishment, and will also be able to apply for exemptions on the ban for things like agriculture and hunting.

Read that again, if you need a machete for clearing your property, on a farm, you will need to apply for an exemption.

And it gets even more insidious.

Machetes are considered to be sharp knives with a blade of more than 20cm, though the exact definition under the ban is yet to be determined.

Ms Allan said lives were being ruined by the weapon.

“Machetes are destroying lives, so we will destroy machetes. The places we meet can’t become the places we fear,” Ms Allan said.

“I am listening and I am acting, with Australia’s toughest bail laws and Australia’s first machete ban.

“Under my government, community safety comes first and there are consequences for breaking the rules.”

She said police would be granted new search powers as part of the new ban.

“This is a big and important step because those places where we gather shouldn’t be places where people are carrying these dangerous weapons,” Ms Allan said.

“Places like train stations and shopping centres, they shouldn’t be places of fear where people carry machetes, which is why we ban them and give police these additional powers.”

Public spaces such as train stations and shopping centres will be able to be declared designated search areas for up to six months, rather than the current 12 hours, allowing police to search people for weapons and seize items without a warrant.

WE all know that this UNLIMITED POWER for search will be used to find far more than Machete, it will be used for every type of "search and fine" for everything from pocketknives to anything they can think of.
You will always set off a metal detector, I can guarantee it.
Car keys, metal zippers, watches, rings, and prosthetics will all unfailingly find you given a more thorough search for anything you have on your person or in your car.

And with the grubberments open ended "Definition" of weapons ranging from nail clippers to screwdrivers and even unbladed mini tools, There will be a lot of very profitable "FINES" to help out a bankrupt and wasteful grubberment.

Im sure we will eventually see the forced confiscation of any and all knives, even in our homes.
Remember "Zombi" knives are now illegal even in your own home.

Its so sad.

[matzesu]

This whole Situation in Australia is quite bad, like i said the most used weapons Terrorist are using are Cars and Kitchen Knifes, not the Machette used by Farmers or an Swiss Army Knife . ..

Farmers would rather burn the bushes now as the Machette is banned, this will causes lot more Bush Fires and fuel the Global Warming lot more..

[Valkie]

The only place I can use my multitool now is in my own home.

Well, that's not quite correct.
When working with Marine Rescue, we can legally carry a "very sharp" knife or multitool.
There is even one sheathed and available on deck.
Why?
Well, we tow boats.
And if anyone has towed a boat, you will know you need a big thick rope to tow it.
And if said towed boat starts to sink, releasing the tow rope from our boat can be a bit of a problem because the tow hitch knot isn't easily removed when under tension (as it is designed to be).
The safest practice is to cut the rope. A 3/4" to 1" diameter rope doesn't cut easily, so a very sharp knife is required.
You also want it done ASAP, not sawing at it while the stern of the boat is being dragged under the water.

I also used to carry one at work, but the latest "SAFETY" requirements are "NO SHARPS" so knives are banned.
I have conveniently ignored this rule and still carry a Victornox knife to cut up my fruit.

New wanding laws in Australia have prevented most sensible people from even carrying a tool on them anywhere.
Its stupid, its unfair and it will not bring down knife crime.

[J2000E]

Australian knife laws... Everything in Australia wants to kill you 

When I worked as a bouncer at the Rex, Kings Cross, Sydney, in the mid 1980ies there should have been knife laws. Still have the scar. An Italian style stilletto was supposed to be burried in my gut. Instead I have a scar on my right thumb. A reflex saved me (and a fellow bouncers quick reaction).

First round - "Excuse me Sir, could I have your stool  (as in chair) please"
Second round - Sir, It is time to leave, can I please have your stool"
Third round - Time to leave, we are closed"
Fourth - (no citation - you grabbed the chair and pulled)

Stiletto out and going for my gut.  Swept it up with my hand (reflex). Fellow bouncer stept in an helped me. We won.

My parents at home in Sweden thought I worked at a restaurant. It was not.

Still got the knife. Will take picture of knife and scar.

Oh, the things you get in to in your youth...

[J2000E]

Not much of a scar but it could/would have been much worse if the knife had gone where intended...

(Do not mind the more recent small cut)

[Echotech]

Australian knife laws... Everything in Australia wants to kill you 

When I worked as a bouncer at the Rex, Kings Cross, Sydney, in the mid 1980ies there should have been knife laws. Still have the scar. An Italian style stilletto was supposed to be burried in my gut. Instead I have a scar on my right thumb. A reflex saved me (and a fellow bouncers quick reaction).

First round - "Excuse me Sir, could I have your stool  (as in chair) please"
Second round - Sir, It is time to leave, can I please have your stool"
Third round - Time to leave, we are closed"
Fourth - (no citation - you grabbed the chair and pulled)

Stiletto out and going for my gut.  Swept it up with my hand (reflex). Fellow bouncer stept in an helped me. We won.

My parents at home in Sweden thought I worked at a restaurant. It was not.

Still got the knife. Will take picture of knife and scar.

Oh, the things you get in to in your youth...

Nasty, sorry to hear you were attacked.....I lived in the Cross then and remember the Rex well, memories!

[Valkie]

Nasty, sorry to hear you were attacked.....I lived in the Cross then and remember the Rex well, memories!

There are some very valid reasons for knife laws.
But introducing draconian knife laws, would it not be better to punish knife crime more effectively first?
As it stands at the moment here, people carry machete and huge knives onto trains and attack people.
But when caught, they get a small fine or a slap on the wrist and get let out on bail.
It would be better if they came down harder on criminals rather than punishing people for carry a harmless Victorinox knife for cutting up fruit.

I have carried knives since I was a boy scout, that's nearly 60 years.
I have never used one in anger, although I have trained extensively with knives in martial arts.

We, as members of a knife organization, need to promote the advantages and safe use of multitools.
Otherwise, we will see no more multitools anywhere.
Even if we were to license our multitools would be better than just not being able to carry one.

[Echotech]

We, as members of a knife organization, need to promote the advantages and safe use of multitools.
Otherwise, we will see no more multitools anywhere.
Even if we were to license our multitools would be better than just not being able to carry one.

I think our knife laws are draconian as well, I have also always carried a pen knife since i was a boy

I've considered the licensing idea and maybe that is a possible solution.
As it stands the laws seem arbitrary and more about the pollies being so called "tough on crime" than any real solution

[J2000E]

I believe we have hit the sweet spot here in Sweden (some here might not agree though - of course). This is from the Swedish Police:

 Knives and other dangerous objects

The legislation in this area deals with knives, stabbing weapons, cutting weapons and other dangerous objects intended to be used as a weapon for a criminal threat against someone’s life or health.

It is prohibited for anyone to have a knife, stabbing weapon, cutting weapon or other dangerous object with them in a public place, in areas around schools, or in vehicles in a public place, unless having such a weapon may be considered justified or appropriate under the circumstances. The prohibition applies to items intended to be used as a weapon for a criminal threat against someone’s life or health.

Under no circumstances may a person under the age of 21 own, borrow or use a spring-assisted knife (switchblade) or spring-stiletto knife.

A violation of the Swedish Knife Act may result in imprisonment for up to six months. If it concerns a serious violation of the Swedish Knife Act, it may result in a fine or imprisonment for up to one year.
Examples of dangerous objects

    Butterfly knives (balisong)
    Sabres
    Spring-assisted knives (switchblades)
    Stilettos
    Swords
    Karate sticks
    Ninja stars/throwing stars
    Brass knuckles


Examples of exceptions to the prohibition:

(when having of such on one’s person may be considered justified or appropriate)

    A military soldier bearing a knife with their uniform
    Craftsmen who are using a knife with their work
    Mushroom pickers carrying an appropriate knife during hiking
    Normal use of a pocket knife or multi-tool/Swiss army knife


(it continues about other objects)

As a hunter I have no problem, as per the above, justifying my butcher knife set or hunting knife when going hunting. I carry them in the back of my car travelling with them - for good measure/form.

[Valkie]

I believe we have hit the sweet spot here in Sweden (some here might not agree though - of course). This is from the Swedish Police:

 Knives and other dangerous objects

The legislation in this area deals with knives, stabbing weapons, cutting weapons and other dangerous objects intended to be used as a weapon for a criminal threat against someone’s life or health.

It is prohibited for anyone to have a knife, stabbing weapon, cutting weapon or other dangerous object with them in a public place, in areas around schools, or in vehicles in a public place, unless having such a weapon may be considered justified or appropriate under the circumstances. The prohibition applies to items intended to be used as a weapon for a criminal threat against someone’s life or health.

Under no circumstances may a person under the age of 21 own, borrow or use a spring-assisted knife (switchblade) or spring-stiletto knife.

A violation of the Swedish Knife Act may result in imprisonment for up to six months. If it concerns a serious violation of the Swedish Knife Act, it may result in a fine or imprisonment for up to one year.
Examples of dangerous objects

    Butterfly knives (balisong)
    Sabres
    Spring-assisted knives (switchblades)
    Stilettos
    Swords
    Karate sticks
    Ninja stars/throwing stars
    Brass knuckles


Examples of exceptions to the prohibition:

(when having of such on one’s person may be considered justified or appropriate)

    A military soldier bearing a knife with their uniform
    Craftsmen who are using a knife with their work
    Mushroom pickers carrying an appropriate knife during hiking
    Normal use of a pocket knife or multi-tool/Swiss army knife


(it continues about other objects)

As a hunter I have no problem, as per the above, justifying my butcher knife set or hunting knife when going hunting. I carry them in the back of my car travelling with them - for good measure/form.

Unfortunately, banning or legislating "knives" or "other sharp implements" is not addressing the root cause.

Anything can be used as a "weapon"
You can legally carry all manner of "legal" things that could be easily used as a weapon.

But banning Knives in particular is not addressing the issue that its people who are doing the damage, not the knife.
Thousands of people are killed every year by cars, are they thinking of banning them?
Thousands of people die from drugs, both legal and illegal, but laws around them are pathetic.
Hundreds of people die from workplace accidents, but do we ban working?

The law needs to come down much harder on "knife crime", not the carrying of knives themselves.
And we as an organization need to promote the use of multitools as just that "tools" not weapons.

[Echotech]

The law needs to come down much harder on "knife crime", not the carrying of knives themselves.
And we as an organization need to promote the use of multitools as just that "tools" not weapons.

 

[Valkie]

And this is where we are failing, big time.

Kids are briigning knives (huge kitchen knives and machete) to school and attacking other kids.
Let off with a warning

Kids, and some groups are breaking into houses with large knives and machete, cutting people and getting slaps on the wrist.

They cant get anything by way of fines from these kids or non-working individuals so they don't really enforce it as they should.
They are also afraid of being labelled Racist.

But carry a small Victroinox knife as an working adult, and they will fine you to death and put you away, just for good measure.

Its both a Cultural problem and a youth problem.
The new laws are not making a difference and there is a huge kickback against lowering the age of prosecution for serious crime, but something seriously needs to be done.

I think this isn't just an Australian issue, I think the whole world at the moment has some serious issues to sort out.

Honest, hard working people are being held to ransom by criminals and people who think they can do what they like without repercussions.

I cant see it improving in the short term, and if it doesn't improve pretty soon, things are going to get really ugly.

I long for the old days when I was young and as a young boy carried a knife to all my scout meetings and outings.
We could wander the streets with impunity and never considered doing anything wrong, except the occasional trespass to pinch some fruit or take a shortcut.
Threatening someone with a knife, robbing people, breaking into cars or houses would never have occurred to us.
And vandalism was so far from our minds that it was unthinkable, in fact we even picked up rubbish and helped fix things that were broken.

So sad.

[Valkie]

Well its happened again.
Two more stabbings in Australia, one killing a shop owner.
The local train station saw a knife fight between two drunks and a couple of kids were caught with huge carving knives at school.

We have no chance of ever changing the laws while morons go around stabbing and killing people.
But its not the knives, its the people.
If only we could get that message out there.

In my 67 years, I have never known Australia to be such a dangerous place to be as it is now.
(murderous and toxic animals and fauna excluded)
I can't for the life of me work out what's going on
And the knife laws haven't stopped people walking around with machete and huge kitchen knives at all.

A recent "wanding" exercise in Queensland caught many people with all manner of weapons, some very concerning weapons to boot.

I'm not sure where it will all end, but its not a good place.

Sadly, it seems that knife laws may be necessary, to a degree.
But I'd much rather harsher punishment for knife crime, than more draconian knife laws.

And what more can they do anyway?
you can't carry anything legally now, so how can they make the laws tougher?
And that's what the pollies are calling for.

The days of the Good Scout always being prepared are now gone.
And Australia is becoming as dangerous as any other country, its so sad.