How much innovation do we need?

[Farmer X]

I...so wish Wenger had been sold to CRKT or similar- that really would have stirred the pot!!

I'm gonna be the one to stir the pot with a dissenting opinion: if Wenger was fated to cease operations as they were, winding up under Victorinox's umbrella was one of the two the best possible outcomes. Why do I say that? Those Wenger employees kept their jobs for a while, and quality was maintained. Look at what happened when Schrade went under. The name was sold to Taylor Brands. Production went to China, and it is almost universally agreed that quality went to Hell in a handbasket. Case continues operations, but they aren't what they once were. The Camillus name still exists after the original concern went under in 2007, but with a revamped product line (and I can't say if they're good or bad, despite having the approval of Les Stroud at one time). I'm one of those sorts of people who would rather see a great company pass into history with dignity than continue on as a shadow of itself or exist in name only.

Honestly there are extremely cheap forged pliers out there.

In the post I've quoted, you mention both forging and machining. Forging is the process of shaping metal by application of compressive force. Machining is the process of shaping metal by cutting away unneeded material from a solid piece. I'm curious as to whether you were referring to one or both of those processes? I would agree that either is better for pliers heads than casting, at least from the standpoint of durability.

[Vidar]

I'm gonna be the one to stir the pot with a dissenting opinion: if Wenger was fated to cease operations as they were, winding up under Victorinox's umbrella was one of the two the best possible outcomes. Why do I say that? Those Wenger employees kept their jobs for a while, and quality was maintained. Look at what happened when Schrade went under. The name was sold to Taylor Brands. Production went to China, and it is almost universally agreed that quality went to Hell in a handbasket. Case continues operations, but they aren't what they once were. The Camillus name still exists after the original concern went under in 2007, but with a revamped product line (and I can't say if they're good or bad, despite having the approval of Les Stroud at one time). I'm one of those sorts of people who would rather see a great company pass into history with dignity than continue on as a shadow of itself or exist in name only.

You have some good points. I think I agree. 

Well, except for the quality going to Hell. Hell is in Norway and freezes over every winter. I have not seen lots of quality building up there coming in from all over elsewhere. A possible exception might be the Quality Hotel Hell, but I've never stayed there myself. (My personal Hell favourites are the old Hell train station's "Gods expedition" and the previous "Hell Grill and Barbeque".

[Farmer X]

And isn't there a knife manufacturer named Helle?

[Vidar]

Yes. They are far from Hell though. Their small knives are fairly popular, and also goes with some formal traditional clothing. At least until they twist knife carrying laws even more. They might end up carrying just the handles in empty sheats I guess.. 

[Richard Zheng]

I'm gonna be the one to stir the pot with a dissenting opinion: if Wenger was fated to cease operations as they were, winding up under Victorinox's umbrella was one of the two the best possible outcomes. Why do I say that? Those Wenger employees kept their jobs for a while, and quality was maintained. Look at what happened when Schrade went under. The name was sold to Taylor Brands. Production went to China, and it is almost universally agreed that quality went to Hell in a handbasket. Case continues operations, but they aren't what they once were. The Camillus name still exists after the original concern went under in 2007, but with a revamped product line (and I can't say if they're good or bad, despite having the approval of Les Stroud at one time). I'm one of those sorts of people who would rather see a great company pass into history with dignity than continue on as a shadow of itself or exist in name only.
In the post I've quoted, you mention both forging and machining. Forging is the process of shaping metal by application of compressive force. Machining is the process of shaping metal by cutting away unneeded material from a solid piece. I'm curious as to whether you were referring to one or both of those processes? I would agree that either is better for pliers heads than casting, at least from the standpoint of durability.

I was referring to forging and machining.

Usually a combination of both are used to make plier heads.

I kinda had a brainfart when I was typing that.

I mean that most "forged" pliers are first forged into an approximate shape, then they use CNC machinery to refine the shape and add features to the pliers.

The method Dakoyu uses is to punch out a blank plier head out of a sheet of steel and then use a CNC machine to refine the shape.

The actual forging process adds a lot of strength and it is something that you see on some really cheap pliers

[Vidar]

I had to look up Dakoyu, and they do have many models. I actually think I have one of them around here somewhere. Good quality, although a bit on the heavy side.

So they don't forge their plier heads at all? That is a bit surprising. Anyway, I assume they have their reasons.

[Richard Zheng]

I had to look up Dakoyu, and they do have many models. I actually think I have one of them around here somewhere. Good quality, although a bit on the heavy side.

So they don't forge their plier heads at all? That is a bit surprising. Anyway, I assume they have their reasons.

IIRC, forging the plier heads would be significantly more expensive

Having a punched out blank that is CNCed is already significantly stronger than castings, so I think the benefits of a forged approach wouldnt necessarily be needed.

I wonder if you can take that dakoyu plier head and mod that into another tool.

[Vidar]

IIRC, forging the plier heads would be significantly more expensive

That would honestly surprise me for normal production volumes. Forging is a very quick operation, while CNC machining takes at least several seconds to get around a plier head if it is to remove stock down to size. That is if the machine can get to all the needed surfaces with a single hold. If not the stock will have to be repositioned for another run at it. And tool change time and so on if more than one tool is needed to do the machining.

I would try to limit any CNC machining to specific features or touch-up, and then in a manner where lots of plier head could be setup to be done at once.

If I had to use CNC machining to make plier heads I would use round stock instead of blanking from sheets. I would put the round stock material in an automatic feeder coupled to a twin lathe machining centre with live tools. You can fill up those machines with round stock in the morning and they will just go on and spit out finished parts by themselves all day. And being a twin lathe they can access all sides of the plier head as they can change grip precisely themselves as part of the operation. Fascinating machines really.

Anyway, that is just how I would do it. Dakoyu surely have their reasons for doing it their way.

Having a punched out blank that is CNCed is already significantly stronger than castings, so I think the benefits of a forged approach wouldnt necessarily be needed.

I think the strength difference between sheet and cast depends to some extent to the specific material (often a specialized version is used for casting) and any heat treatment after casting. Either way, to the extent a forging is stronger/ tougher than stock material the difference can come in handy in three ways: 1. With forging you can have the same strength for less volume and weight. 2. You can have a stronger part for same volume and weight. Or 3. a combination with somewhat more strength and somewhat less weight. Less weight also means less material costs so there is that too. I would take that difference as multi-tools are fairly weight sensitive.

[Farmer X]

I was referring to forging and machining.

Usually a combination of both are used to make plier heads.

Makes perfect sense.

[ThundahBeagle]

I agree that the  MT era seems to be over
Those guys that started it all those years ago have mostly either sold out, closed down, stepped aside.

Tim Leathermanand Carl Elsenor have sold their companies?  The Elsenor family and Tim Leatherman are sort of the two biggest names in the field

The early complex radical innovations to prevent fringing others patents showed some truly incredible engineering feats.
Tim Leathermans original was not terribly different than the Solingen Fisherman Tool that was pervasive in Europeand the US in the 40 years leading up to Tim's "invention" immediately upon return from Europe

 But that’s what competition does… it forces all parties to up their game…

Now it’s over, gimmicks and snazzy colour schemes seem to be  what separates.

I once thought exchangeable bits in a multitool was a gimmick.   Still dont care for them 20 years later but I DO love my LM Surge!

I’m so thankful I built my collection back when  MT’s and SAKs were both plentiful and relatively cheap and moreover buying and posting was  simpler.

Have to agree with you here.  Whether its Zytel or G-10, I dont care for either on a Leathermanor a Victorinox.   I want them all metal, with the exception of the red cellidor

It would quite literally be almost impossible to build my collection today. If we’d known how things would turn out, we’d have bought  more I’m sure.

LM leaves me stone cold these days, just male jewellery, Gerber never quite hit the mark for me, older SOGs were plagued by weak plier jaws that often broke if stressed too hard, Bear Jaws were intriguing but I never saw them as a real alternative to the bigger brand names

Haven't been really intrigued by a new Leatherman since the Signal, and I'm STILL on the fence aboutbiying one.  Agree, Gerber just doesn't do it for me and too much made in China

Wenger… 12yrs on and I still can’t believe the brand has gone…. Boy did I love Wenger

never owned a Wenger but handled a few.  Nice features and materials.  Still partial to Vic

Victorinox… the sheer arrogance of that company infuriates me, they always seem aloof to their customers. I view the brand  like I view aristocracy years back when they’d toss bread to peasants as they whizzed by in their six horse driven carriages - completely alienated from harsh realities but enjoy having the upper hand.

I do not understand this reference.  How does Vic seem arrogant?

I find them revolting and so wish Wenger had been sold to CRKT or similar- that really would have stirred the pot!!

most of CRKT is made in China or Taiwan or something.   Sure wouldn't want a Swiss Army Knife made in China. 

Just my 2 cent thoughts on your thoughts Tosh.