1902-1909 Huntsman - real or copy?

[jazzbass]

OK, got this in the mail today and to be honest - I'm not quite sure what it is exactly. Most likely a copy, but if (big if) it's a real Elsener made knife, then I think it's a Huntsman from the 1902-1909 time frame - that is, the very first Huntsman model ever. Note I didn't say Victorinox because if this is real, it predates Victorinox by about 15 years.

Ultimately this is a question for Victorinox to answer, so I took some high res pics to email to them (I just need to figure out who to contact). Anyway, I thought I'd share and let everyone guess whether it's real or a copy. Pics:

Open:


Top - note the odd layer arrangement:


Bottom:


Tang Stamp:


IMO there's a better than 50/50 chance that this is just a clone from a long time ago. When I opened it up, the first thing I noticed is the weird layer arrangement. The scissors are where the main blade usually would be and the main blade is next to the opener layer - in the same layer (and on a gigantic backspring) with the saw.  Immediately my stomach dropped and I figured I got some clone from the 1950s. However, I then looked up the knife in the Victorinox 1903 catalog, and saw this:



If you look closely, you can see the exact same layer arrangement - the scissors are behind the main blade.

Other observations:

- Scales are fiber, not cellidor. Consistent with the early 1900s time frame.
- All tools appear to be regular steel, not stainless. Lots of trace amounts of red rust on the tools before I cleaned them up, which the internet tells me indicates steel and not stainless. Consistent with early 1900s manufacture
- Tang stamp is "Armee Suisse" on the front and nothing (that I can see) on the back. This is the oddest part to me, and is the main thing that has me thinking copy. I don't know if "Armee Suisse" would have been a trademark for Elsener at the time. "Victoria" supposedly started in 1909, so this knife should predate that. I guess I'd expect to see "Elsener" stamped somewhere on the knife, but I don't see it.
- Dividers are unanodized aluminum. This is inconsistent, but plausible. Officially they switched from nickel-silver to anodized aluminum in the 1950s, but I have another knife from the early 1940s with aluminum dividers as well. The liners are the other thing that has me thinking copy.
- Original style can opener and screwdriver (without cap lifter)
- Very odd layer arrangement. Originally I thought this meant copy, but looking at the catalog this seems correct.
- Pin placement is EXACT for an older Victorinox knife. One thing I've noticed about older style copies (like Wengers or Solgiens) is that while the tools look the same, the location of the 4 rivets is always just a bit different. I put an old nickel-silver divider from a 1940s Spartan on top of this and the pins lined up exactly.
- Quality - extremely high. This is main thing that makes me think it's real. This knife is well made and tight. No wobble in the tools, all the springs are tight, and the quality of the machining on all parts is high. In buying lots of knives over the years, I've handled a lot of older non-Victorinox knives from Wenger, etc. To a one you can always tell the difference in quality as soon as you pick one up. The machining is rough, everything is a bit loose, the corkscrew is wound a bit sloppily, etc. Not this one - this knife has definitely been used (blades show wear and sharpening marks), but everything is still tight.

So - if you're keeping score: Tang stamp and AL dividers say copy. Pin placement, tools and quality say real. The only real issue I have with the copy idea is the quality of the knife. I have a hard time believing that someone would make such a well-made knife and not put their name on it. However, I have a harder time believing I just picked up a 100 yr old Huntsman is amazingly good condition for a little more than $100.

What do you think? I'll update when (if) I hear back from Victorinox.

[Gadget Guy]

I'm no expert but I think it looks too well made to be fake.      The liners have me stumped a bit.   

[ColoSwiss]

Wow! You are hauling them in. First the XL and now this. 

Karl

[tattoosteve99]

It's possible it's real. 1900 you say. I don't think they had such a high standard then. It's possible it might be a variation. Really nice either way.

[Reinier]

My guess is it's real. And a great find!
I think you outbid me on this one, or another one just like it was just sold on eBay.

[pthycrpg]

urs.wyss@victorinox.ch   Urs is a good person to send requests to.

[meanx]

I'd go that its real, it could be that it went in for repairs at a later stage,hence the different tang stamp and as for the Alu dividers, with the older SAK's you never know there's always the odd SAK that pops up just to prove your previous info was completely wrong   

Any which way a great find and beautiful knife

[macabee]

Genuine or not it looks good to me, still worthy to be in a collection

[dks]

Good buy!!
It looks decent enough to be real.
Also bear in mind that the Swiss Army was at some point (near the 1900 I think  ) getting knives from other suppliers too (e.g from German ones), not just the two we know, so maybe it is one made by them... maybe...

If you do not want it...... 

[jaydar]

Very very nice knife, a few random thoughts

Looks very clean for carbon steel when you got it was it shiny with rust spots or dark with rust spots ?

The Armee Suisse mark seems a bit off to the right can you tell if it had a Swiss cross to the left of it in the past ?

I would say its is most likley an elsener but may have been renovated in the past , if the blade has been refinished they may have taken off the tang stamp and the Swiss cross.

I have an old officer knife marked up with no tang stamp apart from Armee Suisse but it has the Zurich retailer etched on the blade .

I understand that these knifes would have been sold through gun shops etc and it is possible they opted for clean blades so they could brand then themselves.

[jazzbass]

Looks very clean for carbon steel when you got it was it shiny with rust spots or dark with rust spots ?

The flash on the camera makes the blades look a lot brighter than they really are. When I got it they were pretty dark with a good bit of red rust on the surface. I cleaned them up with some oil and steel wool and the result is what you see. The rust came off pretty easily. The surface is pretty dull gray with black marks where the rust was.

The Armee Suisse mark seems a bit off to the right can you tell if it had a Swiss cross to the left of it in the past ?

It's hard to see in the images, but there is a Swiss Cross to the left of the ARMEE SUISSE stamp.

I would say its is most likley an elsener but may have been renovated in the past , if the blade has been refinished they may have taken off the tang stamp and the Swiss cross.

I have an old officer knife marked up with no tang stamp apart from Armee Suisse but it has the Zurich retailer etched on the blade .

I understand that these knifes would have been sold through gun shops etc and it is possible they opted for clean blades so they could brand then themselves.

That is great info - thanks! I'm really starting to think this is a real Elsener knife. I took some measurements last night and things like the scissors, awl, corkscrew all have the same dimensions as newer versions from the 1940s. If this ISN'T an Elsener knife, then someone went through a LOT of effort to make a very detailed replica.

urs.wyss@victorinox.ch   Urs is a good person to send requests to.

Perfect - thanks. Exactly the info I was looking for.

[J Mackrel Jones]

A helluva nice knife, in primo shape!  All the earmarks of an early Elsener.  Armee Suisse (and the shape of the lettering is right) without other mark not uncommon.  Tapering backspring for the wood saw and main blade.  Main-blade nick above the tin-opener notch when closed.  Even the bail has the right figuration at the rivet-holes.  I bet there is a nail-nick on the other side of the scissors too, on the end of the movable arm.  Might those tough-looking liners be nickel-silver or even carbon steel and not softlich aluminum?  I have one which Mr. Wyss says was made by Elsener for the Dolmetsch-Riethmuller shop, with the shield and cross (the shield while not "regulation" until 1909 was on some Elseners at least as early as 1903) and the same tool arrangement, nickel-silver or steel pins like yours, but with brass liners and fillers and the saw has a longer flat non-tooth section at the tip - and I'll bet your saw has a nick near its tip on the side not shown in the photo.  The ungrooved and sort of non-forged corkscrew the only odd element... 
Maybe don't fan all the tools too much, as not to stress the backsprings, heavy tho they are.
I'll trade you my 2008 Soldier for it, if you'll pay the postage.       How about my '92 Subaru?
Please let us know if Urs Wyss weighs in on this.

[Accujohn]

Great find, beautiful shape. Someone said something about not having as high a standard back then. Not sure what was meant by that. Very nice high quality hand made early swiss army.

[tattoosteve99]

Great find, beautiful shape. Someone said something about not having as high a standard back then. Not sure what was meant by that. Very nice high quality hand made early swiss army.

I meant a quality in assembling. My bad. They could have just assembled in different order or like someone else said, it may have been repaired.

[ICanFixThat]

 

[jazzbass]

A helluva nice knife, in primo shape!  All the earmarks of an early Elsener.  Armee Suisse (and the shape of the lettering is right) without other mark not uncommon.  Tapering backspring for the wood saw and main blade.  Main-blade nick above the tin-opener notch when closed.  Even the bail has the right figuration at the rivet-holes.  I bet there is a nail-nick on the other side of the scissors too, on the end of the movable arm.  Might those tough-looking liners be nickel-silver or even carbon steel and not softlich aluminum?  I have one which Mr. Wyss says was made by Elsener for the Dolmetsch-Riethmuller shop, with the shield and cross (the shield while not "regulation" until 1909 was on some Elseners at least as early as 1903) and the same tool arrangement, nickel-silver or steel pins like yours, but with brass liners and fillers and the saw has a longer flat non-tooth section at the tip - and I'll bet your saw has a nick near its tip on the side not shown in the photo.  The ungrooved and sort of non-forged corkscrew the only odd element... 

You describe the knife exactly. I'll test the liners better, but I'm 99% sure they're aluminum. This info is great, so thank you very much. I think I really do have an old Elsener after all.

Maybe don't fan all the tools too much, as not to stress the backsprings, heavy tho they are.
I'll trade you my 2008 Soldier for it, if you'll pay the postage.       How about my '92 Subaru?
Please let us know if Urs Wyss weighs in on this.

Trust me, I know. I had to find out the hard way about old brittle back springs (on an early 1950s 84mm Huntsman Long File). I typically fan for one pic and then try to never do it again. A lot of these old knives are one tool opening away from snapping the back spring.

I've heard back from Mr Wyss requesting more info. Now that the holidays have passed I have time to get back to him, and I'll let you guys know what he says. Thanks to all for the great info.

[Threeme2189]

That knife is in amazing condition, especially if it is really 100 years old.
Great find!