Digitizing 91mm SAK Liners

[GigaHz]

I'm still working on producing SAK liners in brass.  Recently, I made a set of brass liners for a Deluxe Climber detailed in this thread: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,42530.0.html.  A few other members have shown interest in brass liners and I'm still planning to produce some in quantity.  Along those lines, I went back and re-read this thread and discovered, to my dismay, that some of the information I originally posted was incorrect.  For example, I stated that knives with the Pliers tool have two pliers liners.  In fact, the Mechanic (perhaps the best known knife with Pliers) has only one pliers liner.  There are several other errors as well.  Please forgive my newbie exuberence. 

By way of correcting my errors, I created a spreadsheet (attached below) detailing the liner requirement to build up some common knives.  These encompass the 91mm knives that I have.  There are a few notable omissions, like the Fieldmaster/Huntsman, but I'm guessing that those knives use the same eight liners.  Also, the Cybertool and Lite series have some liners that are peculiar to those models and I haven't broken down mine to scan the liners. 

I've given some of the liners names to help differentiate between them but I'm not pretending they're official or anything like that.  I've also attached a scan of the eight most common liners.

Sent the liners.

[WoodMan]

I'm still working on producing SAK liners in brass.  Recently, I made a set of brass liners for a Deluxe Climber detailed in this thread: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,42530.0.html.  A few other members have shown interest in brass liners and I'm still planning to produce some in quantity.  Along those lines, I went back and re-read this thread and discovered, to my dismay, that some of the information I originally posted was incorrect.  For example, I stated that knives with the Pliers tool have two pliers liners.  In fact, the Mechanic (perhaps the best known knife with Pliers) has only one pliers liner.  There are several other errors as well.  Please forgive my newbie exuberence. 

By way of correcting my errors, I created a spreadsheet (attached below) detailing the liner requirement to build up some common knives.  These encompass the 91mm knives that I have.  There are a few notable omissions, like the Fieldmaster/Huntsman, but I'm guessing that those knives use the same eight liners.  Also, the Cybertool and Lite series have some liners that are peculiar to those models and I haven't broken down mine to scan the liners. 

I've given some of the liners names to help differentiate between them but I'm not pretending they're official or anything like that.  I've also attached a scan of the eight most common liners.

Sent the liners.

Thanks.

[WoodMan]

Through the good graces of GigaHz, I now have three more 91mm liners digitized.  He also loaned me three 84mm liners but I haven't finished those yet.  Two of the liners are from a Cybertool.  The other apparently is from a vintage SAK with the old-style awl (correct me if I'm wrong, GigaHz). 

If anyone has any liners that I haven't digitized and that you would like to see produced in .032" brass let me know.  My next step is optimizing the liners on the brass sheet so that more of the common liners get cut (see my spreadsheet in my previous post (#28) for liner distribution).

[GigaHz]

I get 4.66mm on the tang of the CT. When I measure the plastic bit holder, I also get 4.6mm. I get 6.6mm on the head of the Ct. I think the liners need to be 1mm. Then it would be 4.66 +1 +1 = 6.6mm. I think that is the only way to guarantee, the head of the CT to clear the other tools beside it. Can the CT liners be made out of 1mm sheet brass?

[WoodMan]

1mm is about .039".  .032" is, of course slightly smaller.  My metals supplier also stocks brass in .040" which should be close enough. So, I'll make a note that the CT liners need to be thicker.

[WoodMan]

I got the 84mm liners digitized.

[GigaHz]

What is a minimum order? Are a bunch getting made so you can stock them?

[GigaHz]

Also I get 4.63mm on the pliers with rivet. Pliers alone is 3.2mm. I know the majority of the rivet sticks out to one side only. I am guessing at 70% to one side. With my math I get 4.63 - 3.2 = 1.43mm. Then 70% of 1.43mm = 1.03mm. Maybe that is why the pliers liner is also 1mm thick. It probably depends what you put it beside, whether it might hit or not with a thinner liner. Can the pliers liner be made out of the 1mm or .04 too?

[Syph007]

That pliers rivet does stick out a bit, but I usually grind off a tiny bit since there is excess there.  Ive never had a problem putting them on 93mm alox with only normal thickness liners.

[GigaHz]

Did the Swiss make the liner thicker cause of the rivet or the added strength of the thicker liner?

[Syph007]

Strength I bet.  That 3000 series Al they use is pretty sad for structural abilities.

[GigaHz]

Is thinner brass as strong as thicker aluminum? Also you are used to having a nice strong outside liner with the 93 series. I am used to the thin 91 outside liner. I also think they use the plastic scale for strength too with the 91 as apposed to the 93. When I am building a 91 the outside liner bows when assembling them. I know that is not a problem with the the 93 frame.

[Syph007]

I dont know the exact grade of Al they use for Vic liners, but its cheap, low strength stuff compared to 6000 or 7000 series Al.  It feels like 3000 to me. 

Cartridge brass is much stronger than the same thickness of the Vic aluminum.  Outside liners are full too, no cutouts so they are going to be plenty strong IMO.  The only downside to the brass is that is it bascially the same weight as steel.  The Vic Al liners are feather light, but also low quality. 

Pick your poison I guess?  That is the appeal of Ti of course.  Light like Al, but strong like steel, and costs the most! When I first cut an alox liner from Ti, it was so odd to behold.  It was so light, but felt so strong.  I had never worked with Ti before that, so it was like a new bewildering alloy for me.

[GigaHz]

So getting back to a 91 frame. I think the shape and thickness of the liners is a lot more crucial. I think the CT and the pliers liners should be 1mm.

[WoodMan]

The Deluxe Climber I put together with brass liners has the pliers tool and works fine with the .032" brass without modifying the tool in any way.  I also have a Mechanic that's going to get this treatment.

[WoodMan]

Pick your poison I guess?  That is the appeal of Ti of course.  Light like Al, but strong like steel, and costs the most! When I first cut an alox liner from Ti, it was so odd to behold.  It was so light, but felt so strong.  I had never worked with Ti before that, so it was like a new bewildering alloy for me.

If this brass thing works out well, the next try will be Ti.

[WoodMan]

What is a minimum order? Are a bunch getting made so you can stock them?

I haven't actually contacted a shop for the quote to do the cutting yet, but I'm planning to do that next week.  At that point, I'm planning to run a 12" x 12" sheet of .032" for the common liners and another of .040" for the CT liners.  Then, I'm going to assemble a Mechanic with brass liners.  If everything works then I plan to produce them in small quantities and offer them for sale. 

[Syph007]

Ya if I was doing this I'd just do them all in 0.032 as well.  That was one of my pet peeves looking at my CT 34 and seeing different thickness liners. 

I'm really glad you're planning to make up some liners, I think its a great idea.

My experience with Ti and waterjet was not optimal.  The edge cuts had quite alot of taper on them.  Apparently fancier waterjet can adjust jet angle to account for this, so you get a 90 degree cut but I havent had a run with this yet.

Ive also use a laser to cut Ti and it produced a better cut, BUT, half the parts got scorch marks, but I think that was operator error since this shop only does stainless, but they agreed to try Ti.  I suspect the beam was way too high.  I dont know what watt laser they had, but the guy said it could cut 1/2 inch stainless.  So my 0.040 Ti got abused I think.

Ive since found a local shop that has some really high end machinery, wire and plunge EDM, and also they have the adjusting angle waterjet, so they are the place I am going to do my next run of 440c spring cutting at.

Making stuff is fun!

[WoodMan]

I just went and examined my Deluxe Climber mod (with the .032" liners) closely and, while it does work flawlessly, there is very little clearance between the pliers and the can opener when closing.  So, since I've already committed to making the CT liners in .040," I'll make the pliers liners out of .040" also.

[WoodMan]

Thanks for the tips on Ti.

Making stuff is fun!

You got that right!!!

[WoodMan]

Based on the image below (from enki_ck) I'm short at least one Cybertool/Lite liner, the one on each side of the Mag Glass/Lite layer.  Anyone have one they can loan me so I can digitize it?

Also Project Update: I've optimized the common liners (no CT or Lite ones) on a 12 x 12 sheet and will be uploading them today to some local shops for quotes.

[sardauker]

I am going to mod a lite.
Not in a short time, sadly.

when I'll do, I'll be happy to help if you haven't already got the lite layer.


BTW, that pic is awesome and will help me a lot

[WoodMan]

I've been out of town the last couple of days (didn't even take my laptop) and out of the loop. So, a belated update on my liner project.

Last week I sent an optimized 12 x 12 sheet with 42 SAK liners on it (39 91mm and 3 84mm) to five different shops in my general vicinity (within an hour's drive) and requested quotes on cutting by waterjet and/or laser.  Thus far, I've heard back from 2 shops. 

One shop contact (one that specializes in metal stamping but also claims laser cutting capability on their website) left me a voicemail saying that they could not laser cut either brass or copper (?).   

The other shop emailed a quote for $190 to waterjet cut the liners, not including material.  That's roughly $4.52 per liner for cutting only.  A little steep in my opinion, but maybe others can weigh in on this topic. Keep in mind the material cost adds roughly $.24 to the total for each liner based on what I've been paying for C260 Brass.

I'm still waiting to hear from three other shops and it looks like I'm going to have to contact several more.

In related news, I received a 93mm liner from Syph007 (thanks, again) and digitized it this afternoon.  I also digitized the "birdhead" spacers that position the small blade in the blade layer, including the plain 91mm version, the 91mm version with keyring loop, and the 84mm version with keyring loop.  These spacers are all .040" (1mm) thick so they'll get cut with the Cybertool liners and the Pliers liners which will also be made out of .040" (everything else is .032").

[GigaHz]

Hopefully better news comes in. I was planning to make a few brass lined Vics.

[Syph007]

Ask if great lakes water jet can do brass.  They will be the cheapest option.  For blade steel I was going to have cut into 250 springs, it was a buck a part.

[WoodMan]

Update on the brass liner project.  Today, I finally was able to speak to David at Great Lakes Waterjet (thanks for pointing me in that direction, Syph007).  He confirmed he can cut the liners and for a reasonable price.  So, for those of you who have been waiting for brass liners, we're back in business.  David gave me some pointers on optimizing the cutting path drawings: specifically, he advised me undersize the holes by 10% and add .005" to the outside shape of the liner to allow for finishing.  So, I'm revising the drawings right now. Tomorrow, I'm going to pick up some brass sheet at my supplier.  David did say that he's going to be shut down for the first two weeks in April, but after that we should have some brass SAK liners.

[WoodMan]

Finally, some progress on the brass liner project.  This afternoon I sent three 12"x12" sheets of C260 Brass to Great Lakes Waterjet via USPS Priority Mail. One sheet is .032" for regular 91mm liners (and a few 84mm). Another .032" sheet is for 93mm liners.  The last sheet is .040" for CT and Pliers liners (also has some "birdhead" spacers). Hopefully we'll have about 120 liners shortly.

[Syph007]

Cool, I'm glad you're giving this a try, I havent waterjet brass yet so I'm very curious about how it turns out.

[GigaHz]

Finally, some progress on the brass liner project.  This afternoon I sent three 12"x12" sheets of C260 Brass to Great Lakes Waterjet via USPS Priority Mail. One sheet is .032" for regular 91mm liners (and a few 84mm). Another .032" sheet is for 93mm liners.  The last sheet is .040" for CT and Pliers liners (also has some "birdhead" spacers). Hopefully we'll have about 120 liners shortly.

Did you ever get a lite liner? I have a lose one now.

[WoodMan]

Never got a Lite liner.  Only the CT ones that you loaned me earlier.