Requesting help deciding between Surge and Charge AL

[Smaug]

These both have the tool sets I'm looking for.

I like the full-size, outside-accessible scissors on the Surge, and full-size pliers too.

But I like the idea of the better blade on the Charge. I've never really had a high-grade, super-hard knife blade before. Best I have is AUS-8 I think on my old Delica...

I see that the Surge is 1/2" longer and 50% heavier, but I don't see that mattering, since this will not be a pocket carry. (or if so, it'll be coat pocket) more likely backpack or belt carry.

FWIW I already have an original Leatherman PST and an original Victorinox SwissTool. The original PST, I never use because it takes so blasted long to get the tools out. The SwissTool... I don't know why I don't use it. Maybe the high polish turns me off, especially on the screwdrivers? Or maybe I just want another one. I also have a ton of SAKs, ranging from CyberTool 34 to Classic.

I looked at the OHT, but I'd miss the scissors, I'm afraid. Too bad, as the spring-loaded pliers and interchangeable wire-cutter blades would be AWESOME.

One last question: Do you consider the Al handles and exotic blade material to be worth the cost of the Charge Al over the plain old Wave?

[nuphoria]

There's a thread covering similar subject matter to your last question... opinions vary!

As for the Surge, I don't have any of the larger tools as I don't need them or the extra weight. Beyond that, I'm not sure I have a very helpful opinion

[Smaug]

@ nuphoria: At least you replied in time!

I stopped at Bass Pro on the way home. Checked out the Surge, SuperTool 300, OHT, Wingman, Wave, and SOG PowerPlier.

The SOG has the best pliers, bar none, due to the compound leverage, one is less likely to round off the heads of bolts. The ST300 is a close second, and has the best wire cutters. But the rest of the tools took more time to get deployed than any other MT I've seen, as it has that fold-away guard for them. Adding one extra step to get to the tools is not cool.

The ST300 is awesome all around, but no scissors, and all tools are inside. I didn't use my LM PST because of that, so I took a pass on this one, even though it has the best pliers of the bunch.

The Wave is like a Junior Surge, but with a wimpy scissors and a better file.

The Wingman is just brilliant. I think I will pick up one of those. Since the demo model is not as tight as my demo Surge, I felt like it might loosen up a bit more over time. The spring-loaded pliers are great, scissors are great, and overall tool selection is great. I like the pinch-type wire cutter too; it will work well on bigger wire, I think. The one-handed opening on the blade is not as easy as on the Surge though. Compared to a tactical folder, it is a little big, but compared to any other MT with a similar tool set and plier size, it is small and light. Nice big scissors too.

[nuphoria]

A new Wingman fan then? That's good - nice to see another person likes it given how ambivalent people have been about them

[Taxi Dad]

welcome to the 'wingman fan club' !
it's a very functional tool, at a price that means you don't mind using it !
I have a wave and surge, both great tools (well made etc.etc) yet i still have love enough in my heart for my 'wingy' 
good to hear of someone who picks out a tool for what it can do for ''him/her'' rather than multisnobbey , fair play to you 

P.s. I find the blade on my 'wingy' (altho i'm not keen on the serrations) easier to open than the one on the surge , and i have quite big hands !

[Outback in Idaho]

Have a Charge TTi and though it has some nice creature comforts it also does not have the essentials for my needs.  Also own a Surge, which I like a lot but it are heavy. Recently picked up a Rebar is it has half of the essentials I would want on a Charge. ~ Thing is will Leatherman ever get the idea to make a Charge sized Surge with the latter's features, and some of that on the Rebar?

• Surge is worth getting if you have a need for it. the blade exchanger is nice, yet it gets loose after a while and the cheesy locking nubs wear off faster than one would expect.
• The blade locks (security feature) are not as firm as those on the Charge and may need adjusting. (Have a post somewhere on my experiences on that.)
• The scissors are very nice, yet not quite one-hand-opening.
• One of the few tools with a sewing awl. Charge don't have it, Rebar & Super Tool 300 do.
• One can make things to fit the blade exchanger too.

• Charge has that cut hook, yet there is no sharpener on the market that can keep the razor sharpness on it.
• MTO saw blades fit the Charge better than on the Surge.
• Charge has small scissors

• Rebar has replaceable wire cutters.
• about the same size of a Charge yet lighter in weight.
• Rebar also has a sewing awl.
• No outside tools, or diamond-dust file

[AimlessWanderer]

I have a Charge AL and frankly I don't see it as worth the premium over the Wave, it's better looking and named after me  but that's it. The Surge for me is too bulky and heavy. So in choosing between a Charge AL and a Surge, I personally would go with a Wave 

I have handled a Wingman, and think it's OK at US prices but not worth UK prices. I prefer the Gerber Octane to it though in all honesty

[Landrew]

If I could have had a Wave with the hook knife, I probably wouldn't have upgraded to the Charge TTi. It was probably overkill in a strictly utilitarian sense, but there's something about titanium scales that makes it worth every penny.

[Monrogue]

This is a tough one as you seem to have equal likes for each tool.  I have a Charge AL and really like it, but I don't know how worthwhile it is price-wise as the Wave is the same thing functionally.  That would depend on how much you really want the better knife steel and the cool black handle scales

I don't have a Surge, but I do like the looks of the outside accessible scissors.  It's too bulky and heavy for my liking for carry, but it looks like a good tool.  From what I've seen (on Amazon) they aren't too different in price, with the Charge AL being around $10 more, depending on the day.  Prices fluctuate a lot it seems.  Good luck

[Outback in Idaho]

As for blade hardness, S30V is far superior to the CM154. Having a good set of ceramic sharpening stones for the two harder blades is a must-have.

Back when I bought a K503X (CM154) had written Leatherman for a recommended sharpener. Spyderco's Tri-Angle Sharpmaker was recommended. That system will sharpen anything but the cut hook. (Amazon)
For the Cut Hook implement have come to using two sharpeners - since I prefer razor sharpness I always use the ceramic stone after the diamond grit.

Sure wished I could get my paws on a tapered ceramic sharpening stone similar to this one!

[baja820]

Surge for the tool needs and Ritter for your knife needs.

[Mr. Whippy]

My biggest complaint about the Surge is that for many applications (working in engine compartments, etc), it is just too bulky.  Also, for me, I like having both the file and saw on board all the time.

I know scissors were a big selling point, but not for me.

[powernoodle]

I love the Surge, and am receiving a 2nd one this week, but for me the 12+ ounces is just too big to EDC when a Rebar weighs half as much and provides more utility than I need on a daily basis.  For the real workin' man, I could see how the Surge is worth the weight.

[Smaug]

Lots of good thoughts here, as usual, fellas.

I read how heavy the Surge is, and was ready for it. I own an original SwissTool, which I think is even heavier.

But I figured it this way: "Anything with a decent pliers is going to be too heavy for pants pocket carry. If I'm going to carry it in a backpack, belt sheath, glove box, or coat pocket, I don't really care about the weight, so why worry?"

powernoodle: I'm not rugged enough for a Rebar, because I find a scissors loads more useful than a saw. Nice tool though! Also, why are you receiving a 2nd Surge, if they're too big for EDC? Leaving in a kit somewhere?

Mr. Whippy: It is a good point, about having file & saw on board. But I could get by without a saw just fine. The diamond file was a bit selling point for me, and also the ability to fit a hacksaw blade instead of a wood blade. I'll likely cut more metal than wood in my life.

Xelkos: I thought hard about the blade hardness issue. I WANTED to go with a harder blade, just for curiosity. But as I think about it, I'm never caught with a dull knife blade. Plus, most of these have "spare blades" and I'll also always have a SAK in my pocket. So no need really. I'm not hardcore enough, hehehe. I also don't understand your comment about the blade locks. The blades have frame locks, which will NEVER need adjustment. Do you mean the locks for the tools inside the handles?

baja820: Why do you need a tactical folder, if you have a Wave? I never understood this completely. I get that they open faster, usually have better blade materials, and are more comfortable to use in heavy cutting. But do you REALLY do that much heavy cutting? That blade on your Ritter looks mint, so I doubt it.

nuphoria, Taxi Dad: Yeah, that Wingman made an impression on me. After reading some threads about how disappointed some folks were at it, I expected a real piece of junk. But the build quality seems very good, just with a simpler, polish finish. The spring loaded pliers are nice, and an unprecedented feature in this price of tool.  Even the curves of the handles are well thought-out. You're probably right about the blade tightness too. I could probably just loosen something up and it'd be fine. If I was to nitpick one thing about it, I'd say it'd be the short file, with the grooves only going one way. (sometimes, these files tend to follow the contour, if you're filing something hard)

I just had a funny thought too, about the ST300/PST. One time, I was carrying my PST. Wife was taking something out of a package that was cable-tied down to the cardboard backing. I said: "I got it, Honey." But by the time I had my PST out, opened it, found the blade, opened the blade, closed the handes for safety, and walked over to hand it to her, she'd already broken it with her teeth or something. The savage.

[Outback in Idaho]

When deploying the pliers there are pins that protrude out the side of the handle to secure the blades from opening accidentally. Surge has an issue with this, but towards the end of my post I found the fix - gently adjust the blade landing.

Am I the only one on MTO that discovered the blade locking issue on the Surge? No.


Edit: Look at the photos if you want a fast overview.

[MeadMaker]

I have both models and use them for my weekend carry.  After swapping them around for several weeks I can say that the Surge is my favorite.  It has a better tool layout because the scissors are a more useful size and are located on the outside of the tool.  It has every tool that the ALX offers and more because of the blade exchanger.  You get more tool for a little less money and,, when carried on the pocket clip, less of the Surge shows above the pocket.  Some will say that the Surge is too heavy to carry, but when it is riding in you pocket clip it is very comfortable. 

[powernoodle]

powernoodle: I'm not rugged enough for a Rebar, because I find a scissors loads more useful than a saw. Nice tool though! Also, why are you receiving a 2nd Surge, if they're too big for EDC? Leaving in a kit somewhere?

I'm an MT hoarder.  Another Surge is the last thing I "need".  But the hunt, the web surfing, the finding, the purchasing, the waiting and the unpackaging - these things distract me from my inner turmoil.  Then the distraction wears off, and we start looking again.  This is how we end up with 10 or 50 or 100 MTs.  Its how I end up with multiple Wave, Surges, Juices, Swisstool, Gerbers, SOGs, etc.  We pretend its about the tools, the weight, the utility, etc., but thats just the cover story.  Its really about angst mitigation.  Its the same reason people are alcoholics or drug addicts. MTs are our drugs.

[Taxi Dad]

I'm an MT hoarder.  Another Surge is the last thing I "need".  But the hunt, the web surfing, the finding, the purchasing, the waiting and the unpackaging - these things distract me from my inner turmoil.  Then the distraction wears off, and we start looking again.  This is how we end up with 10 or 50 or 100 MTs.  Its how I end up with multiple Wave, Surges, Juices, Swisstool, Gerbers, SOGs, etc.  We pretend its about the tools, the weight, the utility, etc., but thats just the cover story.  Its really about angst mitigation.  Its the same reason people are alcoholics or drug addicts. MTs are our drugs.

the first step to being 'cured' is seeing there is a problem !
all we have to do now is .... oh who cares 

[baja820]

I don't have a problem, I can stop any time I want....... I just don't want to stop.

[nuphoria]

Make peace with it - some things don't need curing

[gregozedobe]

I take the line that any particular hobby/obsession/addiction only becomes a problem when it has a significant negative impact on other areas of your life that are important to you eg spending so much on [whatever] that you don't have enough money for reasonable health care, food, housing, clothing, transportation etc

So by my definition I don't have a problem (I'm not so sure about some of you though .......)   

[Landrew]

It's a hobby when it takes most of your spare time. It's an obsession when it takes most of your spare cash. It's an addiction when it impacts negatively on the rest of your life. At least that's how i see it.

[powernoodle]

Well I never said my hoarding was a problem.    A mental illness, perhaps, but not a problem.  I do like digging down to the root cause of these things, and for me "collecting" MTs (and knives, guns and lights) is essentially a form of self-medication.

[Monrogue]

powernoodle: I'm not rugged enough for a Rebar, because I find a scissors loads more useful than a saw. Nice tool though! Also, why are you receiving a 2nd Surge, if they're too big for EDC? Leaving in a kit somewhere?

I'm an MT hoarder.  Another Surge is the last thing I "need".  But the hunt, the web surfing, the finding, the purchasing, the waiting and the unpackaging - these things distract me from my inner turmoil.  Then the distraction wears off, and we start looking again.  This is how we end up with 10 or 50 or 100 MTs.  Its how I end up with multiple Wave, Surges, Juices, Swisstool, Gerbers, SOGs, etc.  We pretend its about the tools, the weight, the utility, etc., but thats just the cover story.  Its really about angst mitigation.  Its the same reason people are alcoholics or drug addicts. MTs are our drugs.

Haha, so true man   While I don't have multiples of the same tool, I totally agree and identify with the first part regarding the process of getting a new multitool or SAK.  To some degree, it seems the process is just as fun/addicting as the tools themselves

[tosh]

lol

Some of the posts on this forum are just...........

Shall we 'cut-to-the-chase' here folks

A multitool, any multitool regardless of brand, expense  is simply a compromise - there I've gone and said it.....Oh dear, have I overstepped the mark 

I'm supposedly a  tradesmen (when I can find work..ahem), and in all seriousness multitools really are a compromise in my view.  Yeah, I love em' to bits - which is a good job considering how many I've now got!!
But would I really risk chipping the wire cutter on a MT that in all probability costs 10x the cost of a regular pair of wire cutters trying to cut something I wasn't sure of, would I risk spraining the plier head on a nut when a step into the garage or toolbox can select the correct spanner, would I try to undo a stiff screwhead and risk either damaging the tip or worse spraining the pin.

Now before I get hate mail, I actually think I'm right.
Multitools are great - BUT they are a compromise.

Personally I think the tool you're looking for is the same tool we're all searching for too.
It doesn't exist - I bet it may exist on a CAD file somewhere, but will  probably never see the light of day. What manufacturer is gonna bring out the tool that answers 90% of our needs - thus knowing that person will have no desire to buy another for sometime, if ever.

I think MT's are great as an emergency tool -, i.e when you're stuck. But remember regular handtools are designed to perform one specific task therefore the multitool will ALWAYS come off second best.   

I know years ago when I used to go mountain biking (nothing serious) I used to take a bum bag (fanny pack to you guys) in it was a  cheap box cutter, cheap pair of pliers, cheap 2 ended screwdriver, puncture kit, chain link remover etc etc - all in all maybe 5 items. And I used that set up for years, probably several. Then one christmas I received an all-in-one bike tool, don't recall the brand but it wasn't a cheap version.  Well,  the first time I got caught short, it didn't perform had to push/carry the bike all the way home (Bloody miles - no cell phones then). That to me was a very important lesson learnt.

If your requirement is tool specific - then it's tool specific - don't kid yourself and get caught short or you'll be walking too!!

[Monrogue]

lol

Some of the posts on this forum are just...........

Shall we 'cut-to-the-chase' here folks

A multitool, any multitool regardless of brand, expense  is simply a compromise - there I've gone and said it.....Oh dear, have I overstepped the mark 

I'm supposedly a  tradesmen (when I can find work..ahem), and in all seriousness multitools really are a compromise in my view.  Yeah, I love em' to bits - which is a good job considering how many I've now got!!
But would I really risk chipping the wire cutter on a MT that in all probability costs 10x the cost of a regular pair of wire cutters trying to cut something I wasn't sure of, would I risk spraining the plier head on a nut when a step into the garage or toolbox can select the correct spanner, would I try to undo a stiff screwhead and risk either damaging the tip or worse spraining the pin.

Now before I get hate mail, I actually think I'm right.
Multitools are great - BUT they are a compromise.

Personally I think the tool you're looking for is the same tool we're all searching for too.
It doesn't exist - I bet it may exist on a CAD file somewhere, but will  probably never see the light of day. What manufacturer is gonna bring out the tool that answers 90% of our needs - thus knowing that person will have no desire to buy another for sometime, if ever.

I think MT's are great as an emergency tool -, i.e when you're stuck. But like cordless Powertools and regular handtools designed to perform one specific task the multitool will ALWAYS come off second best.   

I know years ago when I used to go mountain biking (nothing serious) I used to take a bum bag (fanny pack to you guys) in it was a  cheap box cutter, cheap pair of pliers, cheap 2 ended screwdriver, puncture kit, chain link remover etc etc - all in all maybe 5 items. And I used that set up for years, probably several. Then one christmas I received an all-in-one bike tool, don't recall the brand but it wasn't a cheap version.  Well,  the first time I got caught short, it didn't perform had to push/carry the bike all the way home (Bloody miles - no cell phones then). That to me was a very important lesson learnt.

If your requirement is tool specific - then it's tool specific - don't kid yourself and get caught short or you'll be walking too!!

Get the torches and pitchforks!!!

Haha, just kidding man   You make a valid point.

[henryhcyap]

lol

Some of the posts on this forum are just...........

Shall we 'cut-to-the-chase' here folks

A multitool, any multitool regardless of brand, expense  is simply a compromise - there I've gone and said it.....Oh dear, have I overstepped the mark 

I'm supposedly a  tradesmen (when I can find work..ahem), and in all seriousness multitools really are a compromise in my view.  Yeah, I love em' to bits - which is a good job considering how many I've now got!!
But would I really risk chipping the wire cutter on a MT that in all probability costs 10x the cost of a regular pair of wire cutters trying to cut something I wasn't sure of, would I risk spraining the plier head on a nut when a step into the garage or toolbox can select the correct spanner, would I try to undo a stiff screwhead and risk either damaging the tip or worse spraining the pin.

Now before I get hate mail, I actually think I'm right.
Multitools are great - BUT they are a compromise.

Personally I think the tool you're looking for is the same tool we're all searching for too.
It doesn't exist - I bet it may exist on a CAD file somewhere, but will  probably never see the light of day. What manufacturer is gonna bring out the tool that answers 90% of our needs - thus knowing that person will have no desire to buy another for sometime, if ever.

I think MT's are great as an emergency tool -, i.e when you're stuck. But remember regular handtools are designed to perform one specific task therefore the multitool will ALWAYS come off second best.   

I know years ago when I used to go mountain biking (nothing serious) I used to take a bum bag (fanny pack to you guys) in it was a  cheap box cutter, cheap pair of pliers, cheap 2 ended screwdriver, puncture kit, chain link remover etc etc - all in all maybe 5 items. And I used that set up for years, probably several. Then one christmas I received an all-in-one bike tool, don't recall the brand but it wasn't a cheap version.  Well,  the first time I got caught short, it didn't perform had to push/carry the bike all the way home (Bloody miles - no cell phones then). That to me was a very important lesson learnt.

If your requirement is tool specific - then it's tool specific - don't kid yourself and get caught short or you'll be walking too!!

Quite right, I'm a maintenance guy, and my mt comes in very handy when I am caught without the proper tool. Such as when I'm up a ladder fixing something and realise that I've forgotten a plier or screwdriver or cutter etc. it's comes in very handy also when I happen to spot a loose screw or nut when I'm without other tools. Saves me the trouble of trudging back to my vehicle. Whenever I use my mt, I am extra careful with it whereas if I am using the actual tool, i can exert more force, knowing that if it breaks, replacement cost is only a fraction of the cost of a mt.

[Smaug]

I'm leaving my pitchfork, but let me look at your post a little closer...

in all seriousness multitools really are a compromise in my view.  Yeah, I love em' to bits - which is a good job considering how many I've now got!!

OK, noted.

But would I really risk chipping the wire cutter on a MT that in all probability costs 10x the cost of a regular pair of wire cutters trying to cut something I wasn't sure of,

Well, if you're going to walk back to your tool box, then why not get the right tool, instead of another wire cutter?

...would I risk spraining the plier head on a nut when a step into the garage or toolbox can select the correct spanner

As a tradesman, you surely have a pretty refined touch. When you put the pliers on a nut, tighten your grip, and try to break it loose, I'm sure you can tell if the nut is too tight for this compromise tool, right? I can, and I'm only a hack.

, would I try to undo a stiff screwhead and risk either damaging the tip or worse spraining the pin.

Again, I can tell if a screw is too tight for an MT. If it is too tight for a full size Leatherman with the right size screwdriver, (and most of them do have the right size) then it is also too tight for a purpose-built screwdriver. It is more a matter of speed. If it takes you two minutes to walk to your toolbox, but your MT can undo that screw/nut in 5 seconds, then it was worth it to use the compromise tool.  If I've got 20 such screws.... Yeah, I'll walk to the toolbox, and get my impact driver.

Multitools are great - BUT they are a compromise.

I agree, but not always in the way you're thinking. Yes, a pliers on a nut is sub-optimal, compared to a wrench. But if it is not a super tight or super big one, and the Leatherman will do it without buggering up the nut, then why not save yourself that 13th trip up and down the stairs?

I think MT's are great as an emergency tool -, i.e when you're stuck. But remember regular handtools are designed to perform one specific task therefore the multitool will ALWAYS come off second best.

Maybe to many people. But you can see that a lot of us here carry them just for the pleasure of having a good tool on them. A tool that is flexible enough to do many jobs well, even if it is not ideal.

If your requirement is tool specific - then it's tool specific - don't kid yourself and get caught short or you'll be walking too!!

This is relative too. For example, a Leatherman with the bit driver has many many options for fastners it can drive. Many times, one can just select the application-specific bit, especially if one has the extra bits. Then, as I said before, it is just a matter of time economy. Is it a big enough job where going to get the specific hand tool is warranted? Or just a few quick fastners?

That said, some of us could use a few more walks to the tool box, hehehe.

[nuphoria]

No argument from me Tosh - I mostly agree with your post

For a lot of small jobs I need a tool for, MT's are perfectly fine and very convenient, but I do have a full set of tools for most proper job I plan to do.

[gregozedobe]

I try to use a tool that is adequate for the task - if that is the MT in my pocket/vehicle then well and good, if not then I go and get the appropriate tool. 

However, sometimes the "appropriate tool" is simply not available.  If circumstances dictate I'll use whatever I can.  Once I de-bogged my VW van using a white post from the side of the road (and trust me, a white post is an absolutely lousy shovel, so now I carry a small shovel in my van).  I have used rocks as tools too, and branches from trees, sometimes you just have to make-do.

Just because an MT is a compromise for some (well, many heavy duty tasks) doesn't mean it isn't a perfectly adequate tool for some tasks, and a purpose built tool may not offer any great advantage.