Whatever is going on in Ibach?

[shadowrider]

Hi folks.
I bought a new SAK last weekend from swissbianco Canada. Talking on the phone with Alexei, and exchanging a couple of emails with Roger, I seemed to understand that they will no longer have Victorinox manufacture knives on their behalf.
The reason for this seems to be that, as Roger put it, things have been messed up in Ibach over the last year. When I asked him if he could elaborate on the issue, he said he couldn't at this time. They also mentioned Victorinox is "streamlining" the production, but I am not sure what this means.
Any ideas about what is going on with Vic?

[cbl51]

My guess is, that the world wide hard economic environment is making it harder on all kinds of business, so Victorinox can not keep doing "special" production runs for people like Roger. Just not enough profit to make it worth while in a hard market. Look at how many alox models have bit the dust! Many. Victorinox, like a lot of big companies has to tighten the belt to survive. People like Roger accout for a very tiny part of the business, so they may get jettisoned in a hard time.

And lets face it, how many people will pay four or five times the price of a standard SAK to just get a different color?

[sLaughterMed]

Honestly, I think Vic might have decided to start doing the "special runs" themselves, and cut out the middle man (SwissBianco). That relationship never made much sense to me. Victorinox already has an extensive distribution and marketing network. Having a third party resell exclusive runs for profit makes absolutely zero sense, when Vic can do it themselves for minimal extra cost, and pocket the difference.

[cbl51]

Honestly, I think Vic might have decided to start doing the "special runs" themselves, and cut out the middle man (SwissBianco). That relationship never made much sense to me. Victorinox already has an extensive distribution and marketing network. Having a third party resell exclusive runs for profit makes absolutely zero sense, when Vic can do it themselves for minimal extra cost, and pocket the difference.

Very true!!!

[Gareth]

At a guess I'd say there's nothing wrong at Ibach and it's just that they've re-evaluated their relationship with Rodger.

[strmliner]

At a guess I'd say there's nothing wrong at Ibach and it's just that they've re-evaluated their relationship with Rodger.

+1 to that...change is in the air!   

[shadowrider]

Any thought on what "streamlining the production" could signify? English not being my native language, I have trouble understanding this.
If indeed Roger stops having special runs made by Vic, this will likewise have two consequences: one is that the collective value of existing knives made for him will increase. Two is Vic might, as sLaughterMed said, start making likewise limited editions models themselves. But somehow I doubt they will, at least in the near future.

[Gareth]

Any thought on what "streamlining the production" could signify? English not being my native language, I have trouble understanding this.
If indeed Roger stops having special runs made by Vic, this will have two consequences: one is that the collective value of existing knives made for him will increase. Two is Vic might, as sLaughterMed said, start making likewise limited editions models themselves. But somehow I doubt they will, at least in the near future.

That normally means that they'll be making a smaller range of things.  However in this case it might be that they are just going to be doing less work for other people and focusing on their own line-up.

[MWDP]

There were rumors of this happening for a while now but I'm sad to see they are confirmed.

Think of Roger what you want, but when +B was the staple of alox collecting, there were several editions per year, they were all limited to 100 pieces, and colors and models were never repeated.

I've been collecting alox for 3 years now and I liked the atmosphere a lot better 1.5 years ago or so when you would buy new stuff from +B and hunt the older, rare stuff locally or on ebay. Now everyone with money in their pocket can comission a special run for themselves...

[Syph007]

I know other Vic dealers were getting annoyed at B+ getting special treatment, so Im glad that has ended.  No other dealer could get special runs and tool configurations like that, and im very glad Vic has evened the playing field.  It was smart to end the one dealer monopoly.

[Huntsman]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

[Syph007]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

I still find the Delemont line completely odd.  I think they should have just kept them exactly as wengers were but with the Vic shield as the only change.  I find the mushing together of the two just plain weird.   I would put my money on the line just being discontinued all together over time.  I do like the big rangers though.

[yud]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

I still find the Delemont line completely odd.  I think they should have just kept them exactly as wengers were but with the Vic shield as the only change.  I find the mushing together of the two just plain weird.   I would put my money on the line just being discontinued all together over time.  I do like the big rangers though.

Agreed when I saw at SMKW all the Wengers with Vic crosses on them I was weirded out.  I ask the sales person what was up (not she knew what is going) according to her there are many people who love the Wenger scissors.

[MWDP]

I know other Vic dealers were getting annoyed at B+ getting special treatment, so Im glad that has ended.  No other dealer could get special runs and tool configurations like that, and im very glad Vic has evened the playing field.  It was smart to end the one dealer monopoly.

There is no dealer in the world that can get +B models such as Lumberjack, Cadet Plus, Micro Farmer, Carver, etc. All you can hope for from stores now are standard models such as Bantam, Cadet, Farmer, Pioneer, etc. With +B out of the picture, say goodbye to special tool configurations.

[Syph007]

I know other Vic dealers were getting annoyed at B+ getting special treatment, so Im glad that has ended.  No other dealer could get special runs and tool configurations like that, and im very glad Vic has evened the playing field.  It was smart to end the one dealer monopoly.

There is no dealer in the world that can get +B models such as Lumberjack, Cadet Plus, Micro Farmer, Carver, etc. All you can hope for from stores now are standard models such as Bantam, Cadet, Farmer, Pioneer, etc. With +B out of the picture, say goodbye to special tool configurations.

Yup but they couldn't do that for all the dealers but are free to produce those configurations in the future and sell through all the dealers.  Thats how it always should have been and is the whole point of having a dealer network.

[SAK Guy]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

I still find the Delemont line completely odd.  I think they should have just kept them exactly as wengers were but with the Vic shield as the only change.  I find the mushing together of the two just plain weird.   I would put my money on the line just being discontinued all together over time.  I do like the big rangers though.

Agreed when I saw at SMKW all the Wengers with Vic crosses on them I was weirded out.  I ask the sales person what was up (not she knew what is going) according to her there are many people who love the Wenger scissors.

I like the Delemonts. An 85mm size, Vic T&T and the best can opener (I miss that extra inline Phillips capability when I carry reg Wengers). I can live with the Wenger scissors just fine but Vics are better IMO. Actuality dig the EVO scales as well... 

[shadowrider]

Important updates:
I just had an email exchange with Roger. I can tell you guys that their collaboration with Vic still goes on. 
So much so that Vic is currently working on their next special run, which will be shipped to +B in the USA probably at the end of this month.
Roger also said that, due to his company changing its priorities, there will be a big surprise for everybody in the future.
Yeah!

[sLaughterMed]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

I still find the Delemont line completely odd.  I think they should have just kept them exactly as wengers were but with the Vic shield as the only change.  I find the mushing together of the two just plain weird.   I would put my money on the line just being discontinued all together over time.  I do like the big rangers though.

Agreed when I saw at SMKW all the Wengers with Vic crosses on them I was weirded out.  I ask the sales person what was up (not she knew what is going) according to her there are many people who love the Wenger scissors.

I like the Delemonts. An 85mm size, Vic T&T and the best can opener (I miss that extra inline Phillips capability when I carry reg Wengers). I can live with the Wenger scissors just fine but Vics are better IMO. Actuality dig the EVO scales as well... 

Honestly, with the changes Vic made to the Wenger line, I like the 85mm lineup better than the 91mm line. I like the Wenger scissors, and the readily available nail file is a huge plus for me. The blade has more belly, and the evo scales are great. I do admit the 91mm is probably better in the 5+ layer category though (CyberTool anyone?)

I pobably feel this way because I like thin SAKs better than the larger ones.

[Etherealicer]

Ultimately, the Wenger production was not profitable. So even though I see merits to some Wenger implements (nail-file instead of the small blade) and understand personal preferences (Scissors), from a purely economic viewpoint the only thing that makes sense would be to drop all Wenger SAKs.

Personally, I think the Wenger line-up does not add enough to keep the past a live. I'd rather Victorinox moved into the future and bring something new like a blade-less CT with scissors a la Wenger Business tool
And considering the excitement they got for the Pioneer X. I'd say they would do well adding scissors to the Cadet and maybe a metal file to the 93mm line. Maybe have the bit holder from the Titanium line in the 93mm?

[shibafu]

A lot of the 85mm former Wenger models are 50% more expensive than their 91mm equivalents.  On that basis it's hard to see them continuing indefinitely.  Likewise the 65mm.  The 130mm range could live on I think.  They are a little more expensive than 111mm models, but you get more just in size terms, which might justify the extra cost in the eyes of the average customer.

[Fortytwo]

A lot of the 85mm former Wenger models are 50% more expensive than their 91mm equivalents.  On that basis it's hard to see them continuing indefinitely.  Likewise the 65mm.  The 130mm range could live on I think.  They are a little more expensive than 111mm models, but you get more just in size terms, which might justify the extra cost in the eyes of the average customer.

I can't really see why they would be more expensive to produce so maybe they could make the 85 mm cheaper by removing their own competition in the size, scrap the 84 mm range and reintroduce the "plain" (non-evolution) handles for the puritans.

According to the SAK-wiki the current sizes are:
58, 65, 74, 84, 85, 91, 93, 111, 130 and this really calls for a bit of streamlining. I'd say that either 65 or 75 and 84 or 85 has to go. It's also my understanding that there was some kind of deal that the factory at Delémont was to be kept open and that means they need some production there. Added to this is the fact that there are more tools for the 85 mm line. So 84 mm should probably go (preferably plain scales should be reintroduced to the 85 mm line at the same time for those of us who prefer them). The 75 mm is a much underused size and I would not be  surprised to see it go but at the same time the 65 mm is probably the one most in the shadow of the 58 mm (and that size isn't going anywhere!). Maybe both 65 and 75 goes?

[Syph007]

Ultimately, the Wenger production was not profitable. So even though I see merits to some Wenger implements (nail-file instead of the small blade) and understand personal preferences (Scissors), from a purely economic viewpoint the only thing that makes sense would be to drop all Wenger SAKs.

Personally, I think the Wenger line-up does not add enough to keep the past a live. I'd rather Victorinox moved into the future and bring something new like a blade-less CT with scissors a la Wenger Business tool
And considering the excitement they got for the Pioneer X. I'd say they would do well adding scissors to the Cadet and maybe a metal file to the 93mm line. Maybe have the bit holder from the Titanium line in the 93mm?

That would absolutely sell.  IVe done a quite a few CT models with driver in middle and pliers to one side and scissors on the other. 

I collected a few Wenger and now with I collected a few more, but I've always been a Vic fan so I just dont think Id be sad to see them dropped all together.  It must had cost alot of money and time to retool to make the Delemont line and Im pretty surprised they did that actually. 

[shibafu]

I can't really see why they would be more expensive to produce so maybe they could make the 85 mm cheaper by removing their own competition in the size, scrap the 84 mm range and reintroduce the "plain" (non-evolution) handles for the puritans.

It's possible the marginal cost of the 85mm and 91mm might be the same, but even then, economies of scale still come in to play.  With a lower-selling product, the investment in product development, tooling etc. has to be spread over a smaller number of units.

More than likely the marginal cost of the Delemont production is higher than Ibach as well, in fact.  The lower-revenue Delemont lines have probably not had as much investment in automation as the Ibach lines.  That can be a snowball effect over time.  Lower revenue -> lower investment -> higher costs -> higher prices -> lower revenue.  Until eventually your competition wipes you out or takes you over!

[shenkie]

I may be biased since I work for a Vic dealer but I do think it is very weird that +B is able to get special models, colors and configurations that no one else is able to get. Many dealers (Including us) tried to get special runs produces aswell, but most get refused nowadays. To be honest i'll be glad if they stop the whole +B exclusive. Having a Canadian company carry exclusive SWISS army knife models makes no sense.

What sLaughterMed says is correct. Vic finally realizes the money they are able to make by producing a (semi-limited) color themselves each year. The changes have been visible for a while. Mandatory logo or distributor etching for example, new Alox colors every year, Pioneer X, Pioneer X damascus and also the re-introduction of the Alox minichamp.

[strmliner]

Important updates:
I just had an email exchange with Roger. I can tell you guys that their collaboration with Vic still goes on. 
So much so that Vic is currently working on their next special run, which will be shipped to +B in the USA probably at the end of this month.
Roger also said that, due to his company changing its priorities, there will be a big surprise for everybody in the future.
Yeah!

Good update Shadowrider...thanks!   

Like I stated earlier, change is in the air. 

We've all known that at some point in the not-do-distant future, something would have to be done about the overlaps between the Wenger and Vic SAK lines (ie, 58/65/75mm and 84/85mm lines).  Think prudent business and the financial bottom line.   

Changes like these take time, once they work out their strategies (also taking time), doing their marketing pitches and forecasts (taking more time), and then gearing up production (even more time)...kind of how big business works.  So realize we (the avid followers and enthusiasts) are mushrooms!      Yep, we're sitting in the dark and somebody's spreading smurf all over us...we aren't in control...but we're very interested. 

And I do believe what we express on this and other forums has an impact       (large or small is your best guess...but I do believe they're keeping an ear to the ground!).

Most importantly, keep on your chosen path, be it collecting Alox or big, wide SAKs or modding to your little hearts desires.  Change is in the air and eventually this will all come out in the wash...

 

[Mercury]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

I still find the Delemont line completely odd.  I think they should have just kept them exactly as wengers were but with the Vic shield as the only change.  I find the mushing together of the two just plain weird.   I would put my money on the line just being discontinued all together over time.  I do like the big rangers though.

Agreed when I saw at SMKW all the Wengers with Vic crosses on them I was weirded out.  I ask the sales person what was up (not she knew what is going) according to her there are many people who love the Wenger scissors.

Yud, I know it's about 20 days late but I'm sporadic on here right now: Welcome back sir!  It was like a blast from the past seeing your YudSAK signature in a thread!

[yud]

Re SB, Ibach etc
Yeah - Gareth, CBL, Slaughtermed, Syph have nailed it.

Re Streamlining or rationalisation - Again agree with what is said above.
 
There have been a few discussions in other threads, here at MTo, over the last 18 months or so, about what Vic have said re up and coming changes - eg:

• They are going to cut right down on limited (alox?) editions
• Typically one special alox colour per year - Blue last year - Is it purple this year? - But there is also the metalic grey! BTW I wish they would not call that 'limited' - Making a colour for a whole year IMHO is not limited - it's just just 'the 20xx' colour ! Eg The Classic special editions each year
• The Pioneer X of course - And maybe more models
• There was also a statement about big changes next year - which I personally think means complete integration of the Wenger/Delemont lines into the Vic catalogue - eg one of 84,85mm will go, no duplicate tool designs (eg scissors)

I still find the Delemont line completely odd.  I think they should have just kept them exactly as wengers were but with the Vic shield as the only change.  I find the mushing together of the two just plain weird.   I would put my money on the line just being discontinued all together over time.  I do like the big rangers though.

Agreed when I saw at SMKW all the Wengers with Vic crosses on them I was weirded out.  I ask the sales person what was up (not she knew what is going) according to her there are many people who love the Wenger scissors.

Yud, I know it's about 20 days late but I'm sporadic on here right now: Welcome back sir!  It was like a blast from the past seeing your YudSAK signature in a thread!

Thanks    it is nice to be back around.

[Barry Rowland]

I'm a recent Wenger fan, unfortunately missing them when they were still available over the counter, but I've really grown to love the 85mm line. I really really hope that they don't discontinue the Delemont collection.  There is so much there to keep life interesting in the SAK world.

[marduk]

Some complain about the special relationship between Vic & +B. They can't seem to fathom why he has received what they perceive as special deals and they seem to resent (jealousy?) him. Most have forgotten that Roger was the one who was largely responsible for the production of the Damascus knife. He was personally involved w/Vic at Ibach in its development.

Roger was more than just a dealer or vendor of Vics. In a sense, he was more of an associate.

I have dealt w/him since his arrival in the USA almost 10 years ago & I have found him both helpful and courteous in solving several problems that I have had. He has served the interest of those of us who are alox collectors. I cannot fathom the resentment some have shown toward him in this forum.