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Possible cheap pivots.

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au Offline PTRSAK

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Possible cheap pivots.
on: July 22, 2016, 01:24:45 PM
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 03:05:51 PM
Possible but since they're hollow inside it may make them weaker :think: Better the SAKperts come in an give there 2 pence though :D
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us Offline sLaughterMed

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 03:53:19 PM
Wenger and Victorinox made hollow rivet SAKs for years, and it didnt seem to bother anyone (admittedly it was only the bail that was hollow). I think the bigger concern would be that these are only 2mm in diameter, and even that might not be a big deal.
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: sLaughterMed on July 22, 2016, 03:53:19 PM
Wenger and Victorinox made hollow rivet SAKs for years, and it didnt seem to bother anyone (admittedly it was only the bail that was hollow). I think the bigger concern would be that these are only 2mm in diameter, and even that might not be a big deal.

Looking at the link they are 3MM would that make a difference :pok: :D I think the 2MM is the inside threaded part :think:
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 04:36:22 PM by Poncho65 »
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au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #4 on: July 23, 2016, 04:26:41 AM
Yes, they are 3mm OD and M2 thread inside.
As far as being hollow and potentially weak, if the screws were selected to be of a length that just met in the middle when the knife was assembled, the pivot would be essentially solid and possibly even stronger than a pure brass pin.

I will risk $10 and see what they look like IRL.

Also got some of these M2x12mm csk hex socket head screws.  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/322084789287


« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 05:03:16 AM by PTRSAK »
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #5 on: July 23, 2016, 05:24:34 AM
Quote from: PTRSAK on July 23, 2016, 04:26:41 AM
Yes, they are 3mm OD and M2 thread inside.
As far as being hollow and potentially weak, if the screws were selected to be of a length that just met in the middle when the knife was assembled, the pivot would be essentially solid and possibly even stronger than a pure brass pin.

I will risk $10 and see what they look like IRL.

Also got some of these M2x12mm csk hex socket head screws.  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/322084789287

Can't wait to see how they work :cheers:
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gb Offline shibafu

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 06:24:36 PM
In the pictures it looks like the outside surface is knurled or ridged, not smooth - not ideal for pivots.

au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 11:39:48 PM
Quote from: shibafu on July 25, 2016, 06:24:36 PM
In the pictures it looks like the outside surface is knurled or ridged, not smooth - not ideal for pivots.

I did look at that, depends on several factors.
How deep are the grooves?
Are they cut or knurled?
If formed by some upsetting operation such as knurlling, is the 3mm dia the final size or the original stock?
What hardness is the brass?
And probably a few others I haven't thought of.
I can see some possible advantages to the grooved surface, especially if they aren't to deep/wide.
The reduced contact area may provide a smoother turning pivot.
The grooves may make the pivot self cleaning or more resistant to gumming up.
Applying a tiny amount if lithium grease or similar during assembly could lubricate the blades for life.
Another method that might work is very lightly tinning them with 60/40 solder and then spinning them in a drill with fine abrasive paper to just expose the peaks of the brass again. Would be a lot of work but I'm sure the lead in the solder would be great as a lubricant. (yes I know lead is toxic, I'm just brainstorming this stuff as I type).

I just have an enquiring mind, I get these crazy ideas and have to try them.
Last time it ended up with me figuring out how to fit Wenger scissors into 84mm Vic' knives.

At the end of the day I may have wasted a few dollars, if not I've found a source of 10 cent pivots rather than 2 dollars each from places like knifekits.com
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gb Offline shibafu

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #8 on: July 26, 2016, 12:28:52 PM
Quote from: PTRSAK on July 25, 2016, 11:39:48 PM
I did look at that, depends on several factors.
How deep are the grooves?
Are they cut or knurled?
If formed by some upsetting operation such as knurlling, is the 3mm dia the final size or the original stock?
What hardness is the brass?
And probably a few others I haven't thought of.
I can see some possible advantages to the grooved surface, especially if they aren't to deep/wide.
The reduced contact area may provide a smoother turning pivot.
The grooves may make the pivot self cleaning or more resistant to gumming up.
Applying a tiny amount if lithium grease or similar during assembly could lubricate the blades for life.
Another method that might work is very lightly tinning them with 60/40 solder and then spinning them in a drill with fine abrasive paper to just expose the peaks of the brass again. Would be a lot of work but I'm sure the lead in the solder would be great as a lubricant. (yes I know lead is toxic, I'm just brainstorming this stuff as I type).

I just have an enquiring mind, I get these crazy ideas and have to try them.
Last time it ended up with me figuring out how to fit Wenger scissors into 84mm Vic' knives.

At the end of the day I may have wasted a few dollars, if not I've found a source of 10 cent pivots rather than 2 dollars each from places like knifekits.com

 :tu: interesting thoughts, look forward to hearing how it works out.

au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #9 on: August 06, 2016, 05:42:35 AM
Well, the barrels arrived, still waiting on the screws.
Measuring up it would appear that my thoughts were correct in that they appear to have been 3mm stock before being knurled. The final size is about 3.1something or slightly bigger than 3mm but a whisker smaller than 1/8".
They are long enough to hold in a drill chuck and leave enough free to file down to 3mm.

The M2 thread appears to be about 5mm deep into the ends and they are drilled the whole way through so after cutting to length it would be no trouble to tap the cut end.

Another use I have already put one to is as a hollow rivet in a Soldier knife. Cut to length and spread the end with a sharp tap on a centrepunch.

Part two follows when the screws arrive.
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us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #10 on: August 07, 2016, 05:33:30 AM
Stand by. There will be some for sale soon ;). That's all I can say at the moment.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #11 on: August 07, 2016, 12:01:42 PM
haha, well I can't see myself getting through 30 knives worth too quickly. 
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us Offline sLaughterMed

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #12 on: August 07, 2016, 05:37:07 PM
:popcorn:
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #13 on: August 09, 2016, 01:52:29 AM
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us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #14 on: August 09, 2016, 04:07:08 AM
Question for you all on pivots. What would pay per pivot? $3-5, $5-7??? I know that sounds like a strange question but I'd like to know to pass on the info. We all know cheaper is better, but quality custom stuff usually demands a higher premium.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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us Offline sLaughterMed

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #15 on: August 09, 2016, 04:32:09 AM
Quote from: tattoosteve99 on August 09, 2016, 04:07:08 AM
Question for you all on pivots. What would pay per pivot? $3-5, $5-7??? I know that sounds like a strange question but I'd like to know to pass on the info. We all know cheaper is better, but quality custom stuff usually demands a higher premium.
Free is good. :P

Depends on price of materials, plus cost of labor. I say you figure out the price of the materials, and add 10% for wear and tear on bits and things.

Then, assign a value to your labor ($20-$10000000 an hour, whtever you are worth) BEFORE you start. Then, time how long it takes to  make a demo set. Calculate based on the value of your labor, and add everything together!

If no one likes your prices, they will tell you with your wallet. Id be interested in some for sure though, if it works out.
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wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #16 on: August 09, 2016, 12:12:20 PM
Quote from: tattoosteve99 on August 09, 2016, 04:07:08 AM
Question for you all on pivots. What would pay per pivot? $3-5, $5-7??? I know that sounds like a strange question but I'd like to know to pass on the info. We all know cheaper is better, but quality custom stuff usually demands a higher premium.

I'd pay more for a 3mm stainless pivot with M2 threads than I'd pay for a 1/8" brass one with 2-56 screws. 
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us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #17 on: August 25, 2016, 10:18:50 PM
Bump!! I have some news. The person who is making these is done with the prototyping and heat treatment. I will be testing these out on my personal EDC sak as soon as they arrive :tu:
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #18 on: August 27, 2016, 10:12:01 PM
And I have some!! I will be testing these shortly on my EDC :tu: 
From the lack of enthusiasm on this thread you'd think no one is interested :whistle:
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hr Offline enki_ck

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #19 on: August 27, 2016, 10:34:08 PM
Well you know we prefer pictures around these parts. ;)

:D
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us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #20 on: August 27, 2016, 11:12:46 PM
Quote from: enki_ck on August 27, 2016, 10:34:08 PM
Well you know we prefer pictures around these parts. ;)

:D

Yep and people in hell need.....
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #21 on: August 28, 2016, 01:36:57 PM
Un-derailing for a minute... I have some M2 taps on order because the thread only goes in about 5mm from each end and I bought quite long standoffs. Once they are cut down to length it will lose the thread from one end.
First trial will be done once they arrive.
I should order some more carbide drills too. :think:
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us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #22 on: August 28, 2016, 05:17:21 PM
As a note, these pivots all take 2/56 screws. All thought they are thin, this problem is address by using screws that are as long as the pivots.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #23 on: September 02, 2016, 05:36:38 AM
Any news on how they are going yet or still waiting on stuff to come in :think: :like:
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au Offline PTRSAK

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #24 on: September 02, 2016, 10:08:00 AM
Taps arrived but now I'm 120km away from home for the weekend. The screws I have are long enough to meet in the middle of a 5 layer alox.
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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #25 on: September 02, 2016, 03:53:50 PM
Quote from: Poncho65 on September 02, 2016, 05:36:38 AM
Any news on how they are going yet or still waiting on stuff to come in :think: :like:

Mine are here and I will be fitting then in my EDC knife shortly.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #26 on: September 04, 2016, 05:07:38 PM


Fitting. The size is perfect. I would have had it back together but my screw holes for the clip was stripped. I'm trying jb weld first before I go to a insert to see it that's strong enough to hold. More pics will follow later today if my health holds up.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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gb Offline Little Tinker

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #27 on: September 04, 2016, 09:27:54 PM
Quote from: PTRSAK on September 02, 2016, 10:08:00 AM
Taps arrived but now I'm 120km away from home for the weekend. The screws I have are long enough to meet in the middle of a 5 layer alox.

I've been thinking about this for a similar project.  Although I think a pivot fully filled with screw initially seems like a good idea I'm less sure after pondering the mechanics of it because...
  • If the screw faces actually meet then they are trying to pull the pivot apart at the join surface.
  • If they almost meet then any thermal or movement stress is working on just the unfilled section (because it is most elastic)

Neither of these is likely to be an immediate problem, but over time fatigue may cause a split.

The other option is having a reasonable length empty section between the screw faces, and as long as the wall thickness is sufficient to not deform when opening / closing / using tools then I'm thinking this may be the most durable configuration as the longer empty section can absorb more movement.  But I'm not a materials engineer so am unsure  ???.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 09:29:20 PM by Little Tinker »

us Offline tattoosteve99

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #28 on: September 05, 2016, 12:13:26 AM
Quote from: Little Tinker on September 04, 2016, 09:27:54 PM
Quote from: PTRSAK on September 02, 2016, 10:08:00 AM
Taps arrived but now I'm 120km away from home for the weekend. The screws I have are long enough to meet in the middle of a 5 layer alox.

I've been thinking about this for a similar project.  Although I think a pivot fully filled with screw initially seems like a good idea I'm less sure after pondering the mechanics of it because...
  • If the screw faces actually meet then they are trying to pull the pivot apart at the join surface.
  • If they almost meet then any thermal or movement stress is working on just the unfilled section (because it is most elastic)

Neither of these is likely to be an immediate problem, but over time fatigue may cause a split.

The other option is having a reasonable length empty section between the screw faces, and as long as the wall thickness is sufficient to not deform when opening / closing / using tools then I'm thinking this may be the most durable configuration as the longer empty section can absorb more movement.  But I'm not a materials engineer so am unsure  ???.
If the pivots are cut to the correct length then once tightened it solves this problem. Also use blue loctite so they don't move once tightened.
If I remember correctly, wait, what was I saying?
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us Offline sLaughterMed

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Re: Possible cheap pivots.
Reply #29 on: September 05, 2016, 05:04:48 AM
Quote from: Little Tinker on September 04, 2016, 09:27:54 PM
Quote from: PTRSAK on September 02, 2016, 10:08:00 AM
Taps arrived but now I'm 120km away from home for the weekend. The screws I have are long enough to meet in the middle of a 5 layer alox.

I've been thinking about this for a similar project.  Although I think a pivot fully filled with screw initially seems like a good idea I'm less sure after pondering the mechanics of it because...
  • If the screw faces actually meet then they are trying to pull the pivot apart at the join surface.
  • If they almost meet then any thermal or movement stress is working on just the unfilled section (because it is most elastic)

Neither of these is likely to be an immediate problem, but over time fatigue may cause a split.

The other option is having a reasonable length empty section between the screw faces, and as long as the wall thickness is sufficient to not deform when opening / closing / using tools then I'm thinking this may be the most durable configuration as the longer empty section can absorb more movement.  But I'm not a materials engineer so am unsure  ???.
Im not an materials engineer (yet >:D) but I do happen to be studying that subject right now, (for whatever thats worth.)

Your first point is quite valid. If the screws meet at the middle, they could begin to push against each other, compromising the threads of the pivot, and leading to a failure. However, this is pretty easily avoided with careful measuring, and leaving a small gap.

Thermal expansion isnt really a problem. If your tools are experiencing the kind of thermal fluctuations that could  induce a sudden failure of the pivot due to changes in size, the heat treatment of your tools is probably ruined (and if that happens, your whole SAK is basically useless). Not to mention your liners, springs and tools would be expanding/contracting at roughly the same rate as the pivots. Dont drop your SAK into a campfire, and it should be fine.

As far as the universe is concerned, a 2.5mm solid brass rod functions the same as a 2.5mm brass pivot with screws almost meeting in tthe middle. So any issue you would see with these pivots (provided they were manufactured and installed correctly) would also be seen in a standard SAK. The small gap between the screws would be sufficiently supportes by the pivot walls and screws on either side of the gap

« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 05:06:06 AM by sLaughterMed »
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