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Mod failure. 1461

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Mod failure.
« on: August 11, 2019, 11:41:44 PM »
I just too frustrated at the moment to even start........

I tried to take an old Explorer apart in order to use it build my idea of a TSA-friendly "Toothless Old Explorer", but it was a complete disaster.   :td:




Taking the scales off was pretty straightforward.  Not my first removal.

I was just planning on removing a layer, so I though I could salvage the pins and bushings to re-use when turning a 4-layer into a 3-layer.

I tried drilling out the pins while preserving the bushings, but this didn't go so well with freehand drilling. So I tried using a grinding stone to remove enough of the upset pin to be able to drift the pins out. That worked OK for the smaller pin (back side bushing trashed). But I found I couldn't get the larger pins free of the bushings. I ended up grinding pins and bushings away until I could drift the remaining pins out. In the process of doing so one of the aluminum spacers got bent a bit.

The spring pin was even harder to remove!

I ground that down and drifted it out of one layer, but the it got stuck (bent?). After trying to work that out for a bit, the back side spacer got bent.     :oops:

Eventually it all came apart (there is nothing I can't destroy.) but the process was so chaotic that I have no idea what spring goes with what tool. I only have half the bushings. A couple of spacers are bent. And I think the small pin (easiest to remove) has a slight bend.   :dwts:

Just for fun, I though I'd try to stack the bits back together, but I couldn't even get the first large pin back into the established hole. (Nice tolerances, Vic.) 

So I just trashed an nice, slightly grimy, used Explorer for no good reason.  >:(

Feels like my modding career is over before it even begins.......  :facepalm:

Illegitimi non carborundum
Just Bananas Posts: 73,064
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2019, 11:46:08 PM »
That’s a shame Nix  :facepalm:
But practice makes perfect  :tu:
I can’t talk as I have never tried taking
a SAK to bits yet or tried to mod one  :dunno:

fail to prepare prepare to fail
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,643 Never gonna run around and desert the SAKs
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 11:50:00 PM »
ASSUMING that the pins are not bent, try sanding a small taper on the ends of the pins that you cut.
That's to ttally make sure that there isn't a small amount of material remaining from the cutting/grinding process that is sticking out, making the pin a bit bigger in diameter.
That way it could slide back into the hole more easily.

_______
.          \
_______/
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 11:56:14 PM by Don Pablo »

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 3,686
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 12:05:58 AM »
Check the exploded SAK thread if you need to double check what goes where

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emultitool%2Eorg%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D81046%2E0&share_tid=81046&share_fid=11325&share_type=t

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 12:14:08 AM »
Good reference, RF.  :tu:


Pabs, I did lightly sand the one pin before trying to re-insert it. Didn't actually taper it, but did--as you suggest--want to be sure the wasn't any extra material at the end.


I think I need to find a better way to remove the pins.  A drill press seems like a good step, but even that isn't a clear answer.  How do you guys remove the pins?  Do you save the bushings?


(And where do I get new bushings?  :think:)



Illegitimi non carborundum
No Life Club Posts: 2,928
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 12:26:30 AM »
I usually drill them out and use a nail driver that I have sanded down to drive the pins out. That saves the bushing.

I can send you new pins if you want but I don't think I have any bushings left



[It's not failure if you learn something from it]

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,643 Never gonna run around and desert the SAKs
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 12:33:29 AM »

I think I need to find a better way to remove the pins.  A drill press seems like a good step, but even that isn't a clear answer.  How do you guys remove the pins?  Do you save the bushings?
I use free-hand drilling with a Dremel.
It wouldn't be possible without using a pointy punch to punch a divot into the pin, dead centre, so the drill doesn't wander and wreck the brushing. :dwts:
Then as soon as the brushing starts spinning with the drill, I stop, and start punching out pins with another punch.

I still haven't gotten through a small bag of brushings that I bought from Syph, and some more from other members here. Mostly because I've bought super cheap trashed SAKs just to scrap for brushings. :D

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
No Life Club Posts: 1,599
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 01:08:54 AM »
I start with a small drill bit about the size of the brass pin then I finish with a larger drill bit that is larger than the bushing. when you have drilled deep enough the bushing will just come off. I have a 1/16 pin punch to drift the pins out. One time I put a SAK together without bushings and glued the scales on using goop glue it drys rubbery and won't harm the scales like super glue.

I think Alcohol, Tabacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. 

Mike
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 01:53:51 AM »
 :like:

Illegitimi non carborundum
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 01:55:06 AM »
I'm going to try to salvage some bushings off another old SAK. Not sure about the pins, might be able to use what I have.   :dunno:

Illegitimi non carborundum
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,006
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 02:01:22 AM »
Yes - I remember my first modding experience (I've still only done about three)  ...... Not as easy as you'd think!!

All the amazing modders here make it look so easy - When you do it yourself - Not so!!

Keep at it - Some good tips in here

No Life Club Posts: 1,599
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 02:16:22 AM »
I found brass rod at a Hobby Town. The large was all most perfect the smaller was a little small bit works. Do you have one near you?

I think Alcohol, Tabacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. 

Mike
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,816
Mod failure.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 02:34:54 AM »
Good tips everyone... Sometimes some saks will need a little bit of persuasion... especially those old and dirty ones...

Here’s how I mutilate mine...

1. Center punch the pins
2. Using a Dremel like rotary tool, drill the pins until the bushings spin free or if not, approximately deep enough that it doesn’t go through the outer liner... very crucial if you only need to reduce a single layer
3. I use 2.5mm drill bit on all but the middle pin with bushing... 2mm drill bit for the middle pin with bushing
4. Additionally, I drill the center pin without bushing a little further (but not going through the outer liner) with a 2mm drill bit just to make it easier to punch through. 2.2mm drill bits are hard to find in my area...
5. Use a nail punch (close to similar diameter as the pins) tonpush the pins through the bushings and layer per layer... sometimes the pins are softer than usual... using a smaller diameter punch will just simply ruin the pins.
6. Arrange the removed layers from top to bottom... easily done if removing layer per layer...
7. Take pics with mobile phone... handy when its time for assembly...
8. For 93mm saks, I follow Syph’s tip. Drill and push out the center pin first...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2019, 03:22:04 AM »
Good tips, J-man.  :tu:

When you say "drill and center punch the center pin first, which center pin?  (the center pin with the bushing? Or the center pin (what I called the 'spring pin') without the bushing?)   :think:

Illegitimi non carborundum
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 03:23:04 AM »
I found brass rod at a Hobby Town. The large was all most perfect the smaller was a little small bit works. Do you have one near you?

I do!  :tu:

And we have a good hardware store that may carry some brass rod material. I can always make a rod thinner......  :D

Illegitimi non carborundum
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 03:25:45 AM »

7. Take pics with mobile phone... handy when its time for assembly...


Yeah, that was my plan. I even had my cell phone in my pocket. And then it awl sort of exploded.......

I should have used some wire to replace the pins as I took them out, thereby keeping the set up intact and awl the pieces in one room....and inside the house.....in the same county...... :facepalm:

Illegitimi non carborundum
No Life Club Posts: 3,124
Mod failure.
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2019, 03:38:26 AM »
Sorry to hear of the setback (not failure because it doesn’t sound like your giving up yet). 

You have more courage than me.  The SAKs to make my envisioned mod are still sitting in a drawer, and after this thread may be sitting there for a while.  Then again I failed at trying to change a watch battery the other day when the battery screw went flying to God knows where.

I’m confident that you’ll get it down, especially with all the great recommendations here.
No Life Club Posts: 1,120
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2019, 04:52:05 AM »
Nix, when the going gets tough I sometimes walk away to clear my head. I popped open a 4.2 Audi S6 to find the chain guides for the variable cam timing actuator broken. Upon reassembly I couldn’t get the cams to line up perfectly without oil pressure, I started to get frustrated because I didn’t want engine damage, walked away and came back knowing that I was doing the job right. Start day she spun and purred like a kitten. I guess what I mean is keep your head in the game and walk away when necessary. It helps!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Always ask yourself; if the juice is worth the squeeze.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2019, 04:56:22 AM »
 :tu:

I've stepped back to regroup and reload. Plan A failed, but I have a Plan B to get some supplies and reengage.  Plan C might be a call to Syph.......  :rofl:

Illegitimi non carborundum
No Life Club Posts: 1,120
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2019, 04:59:58 AM »
Never hurts to ask from someone who has taken the test either!

PS when I walked away I called an Audi tech and he said “don’t worry, everything will be fine”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Always ask yourself; if the juice is worth the squeeze.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,060
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2019, 07:37:26 AM »
Good tips everyone... Sometimes some saks will need a little bit of persuasion... especially those old and dirty ones...

Here’s how I mutilate mine...

1. Center punch the pins
2. Using a Dremel like rotary tool, drill the pins until the bushings spin free or if not, approximately deep enough that it doesn’t go through the outer liner... very crucial if you only need to reduce a single layer
3. I use 2.5mm drill bit on all but the middle pin with bushing... 2mm drill bit for the middle pin with bushing
4. Additionally, I drill the center pin without bushing a little further (but not going through the outer liner) with a 2mm drill bit just to make it easier to punch through. 2.2mm drill bits are hard to find in my area...
5. Use a nail punch (close to similar diameter as the pins) tonpush the pins through the bushings and layer per layer... sometimes the pins are softer than usual... using a smaller diameter punch will just simply ruin the pins.
6. Arrange the removed layers from top to bottom... easily done if removing layer per layer...
7. Take pics with mobile phone... handy when its time for assembly...
8. For 93mm saks, I follow Syph’s tip. Drill and push out the center pin first...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:iagree: These are really solid advice, great job!


Nix, sorry to hear about the setback, but don't let that hold you back. 




Here are some my photo/experience from my first mod:


Some kind of jig is important to me, it keeps the chassis level when taped onto the jig.  I drilled four holes into the wood and it doesn't even have to be 100% accurate.  In fact, drilling four larger holes will allow the pin/bushing to pass thru when you are 'punching' out the pin, layer by layer.





Center punch is absolutely must for me, I have run-out problem with drill press when I am not careful.  I can't imagine how I am going to mod without the center punch...the backside tool pin(the most bottom pin), I will file it flat and then center punch that.





I admit having a drill press really does make things easier, but using a dremel to take out the bushing/pin is a totally viable option.  I usually use a tiny diamond dremel bit to hollow out the content inside the bushing slowly, especially when I failed to drill accurately into the bushing.  Since it is not possible to know how deep I should drill and everything is just educated guess, so from time to time, I will stop and try using the cutter to try to lift the bushing up.  If I feel there is wiggle room, I know I am very very close.  Most of the times, the rivet will get so thin that you could just literally lift the bushing off without any damage.





For assembly, I built a second jig, this time with liner as a guide, I could mark on the wood and drill those 4 holes with much higher accuracy.  This jig is great for keeping everything inline and straight, especially for the first few layers since the spring/tool tension might warp the whole thing funny.  The chauffeuring on top of each pins do help. 





Hope these helps a little! :cheers:
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,816
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2019, 01:21:05 PM »
Good tips, J-man.  :tu:

When you say "drill and center punch the center pin first, which center pin?  (the center pin with the bushing? Or the center pin (what I called the 'spring pin') without the bushing?)   :think:
The last one was for the Pioneer series...
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,532

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2019, 02:34:20 PM »
Good stuff, comis!  :tu:

Illegitimi non carborundum
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,643 Never gonna run around and desert the SAKs
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2019, 03:21:20 PM »
Beautiful pics, Comis. :drool:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,400
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2019, 04:36:50 PM »
 :rofl:  ... sorry Jack  :angel:

This is totally normal even for the second mod.
When I decided to do my first mod I've prepared for the worst after reading a couple of SAK mod threads here  :D

Apart from the excellent advice already given I found it very important not to rush things and rethink any next step.
And building a simple jig for re-assembly is a very good idea.

PS, if you get stuck at re-assembling the scissors layer then I found a little trick to get it done (see below).
I've used a punch/pin that is thinner than the scissors layer to push back the spring before adding the scissors.
Then the scissors can be added pushed down far enough so that the spring stays in place.
You then keep pressing the scissors down while pulling out the punch/pin.

Hope it makes sense  :salute:
Good luck and don't give up.

Formerly known as MTMatt
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,643 Never gonna run around and desert the SAKs
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2019, 06:08:20 PM »
:rofl:  ... sorry Jack  :angel:

This is totally normal even for the second mod.
When I decided to do my first mod I've prepared for the worst after reading a couple of SAK mod threads here  :D

Apart from the excellent advice already given I found it very important not to rush things and rethink any next step.
And building a simple jig for re-assembly is a very good idea.

PS, if you get stuck at re-assembling the scissors layer then I found a little trick to get it done (see below).
I've used a punch/pin that is thinner than the scissors layer to push back the spring before adding the scissors.
Then the scissors can be added pushed down far enough so that the spring stays in place.
You then keep pressing the scissors down while pulling out the punch/pin.

Hope it makes sense  :salute:
Good luck and don't give up.
You should have been called McPlaster. :whistle:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,400
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2019, 06:16:37 PM »
 :facepalm:

Formerly known as MTMatt
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,681
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2019, 06:48:08 PM »
McPatchy!

Buy now or regret later
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,643 Never gonna run around and desert the SAKs
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2019, 06:56:13 PM »

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,400
Re: Mod failure.
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2019, 07:01:53 PM »
You're just jealous about my new name Nicky  :D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 07:10:44 PM by McStitchy »

Formerly known as MTMatt

 

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