Quo vadis, Victorinox?

[Simon_Templar]

Fellow knights,

Since I got serious about SAKs in early 2019, I couldn't help but notice that Victorinox seems to heavily consolidate their product catalogue.

The Farmer X and Swisschamp XXL seem to be the only newly introduced models since 2019, and they are both just variations of existing knives (93 mm Huntsman, XAVT sans electronics). The Pioneer X before followed the same pattern (93 mm Climber), which seems to leave the (expensive but glorious) Wine Master with its sommelier corkscrew as the only innovative SAK in recent past. On the other side of the spectrum, I don't have to remind you how many models (and entire features, like the 74 mm size, the electronic scales and the Lite function) Victorinox have retired since 2019.

I am aware that Victorinox is rather conservative when it comes to innovation, which isn't at all bad in my book. Still, I am wondering - and am a bit worried to be honest - about the developments set out above. I wonder where Victorinox as a company is headed and what their plans for their SAKs might be. At this point it looks to me as if for whatever reason they are focusing more on expansive collectibles (Alox knives, LEs) for existing fans/collectors than on winning over a new generation of customers with innovation (and maybe even some advertisment <gasp>).

That said, I am new to this, so the views of some of the long time members would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Simon

[pfrsantos]

Well, seeing the global spreading of the restrictions on tool (meaning bladed utensils) carrying, the less need for using them, with people gathering in urban areas instead of the country, the diminishing knowledge on how to use them by the newer generations, I'd say they're more focused on the existing knife-people than on trying to gain new followers.

 

I might be wrong, though. It has happened to me once or twice before...

 

[Fireman]

Well, seeing the global spreading of the restrictions on tool (meaning bladed utensils) carrying, the less need for using them, with people gathering in urban areas instead of the country, the diminishing knowledge on how to use them by the newer generations, I'd say they're more focused on the existing knife-people than on trying to gain new followers.

 

I might be wrong, though. It has happened to me once or twice before...

 

Growing up,every man a knew carried a pocket knife (no SAKs though).  We weren't supposed to take knives to school, but we did, and as long as you didn't do anything stupid teachers looked the other way.  As you say, it's a different world now.  Victorinox didn't start marketing other products because their knife business was booming.

[cbl51]

Yes, once upon a time when I was a kid, every man who had pants on had a pocket knife in one of those pockets.

BUT...times has changed. With the great migration of people to large urban centers, and life in general getting more urban based and technological in employment, the need for a knife has shrunk. Shrunk massively. We ain't working on daddy's farm anymore, but in the office cubicle in urban/suburban life styles. More and more packaging has tear open flaps, pull tabs, and most people don't even bother carrying a knife anymore.

Enter the fact that more and more countries and cities have enacted strict knife laws to combat crime, and knife sales shrink again from an already low level. In the 1960's a huge number of old line knife companies in the U.S. went under for lack customers. The ugly truth of what we obsessed knife/multitool fans don't like to admit is, in modern life, there is very little need for a pocket knife like 50 years ago. A small keychains size knife/tool like a 58mm SAK or Leatherman micra or squirt is enough for most city/suburban dwellers. Declining sales of SAK's and pocket knives in general has influenced major companies like Victorinox and Leatherman. Look how much they have brought out of the "smaller" tools. I've 'experimented' many times carrying just a little classic as my only EDC, and I survived just fine.

I'm sure Victorinox has done the market surveys and knows that most people don't carry much these days. The sales of the 58mm line has increased and they have went to the length of all kinds of 'special edition' color schemes and designs. The humble classic is the best selling SAK in the Victorinox line, so they have run with that. Its what sells in this modern age. It's what most non enthusiasts will buy.

[nate j]

Victorinox’s primary concern is the long-term survival and financial viability of the company.  This is much more important to them than growth or innovation.  Personally, I can’t find fault with this approach.  I’d much rather have SAKs available on the market for my grandkids to purchase someday than see Vic go under because they overextended themselves or gambled on what might be the next big thing.

To this end, I expect that they are making what they perceive to be smart business decisions by:
1.  Discontinuing models and or lines that don’t sell as well
2.  Offering things like different colors and special editions, which probably offer a modest sales boost for very minimal input costs
3.  Being very conservative with regard to introducing new models, tools, or lines

As somewhat of an aside (though I doubt it will be news to anyone here), I also note that Victorinox quality is second to none, and in fact is often the standard by which others are judged.  This is an especially remarkable achievement considering their price point.  It is perhaps their most important selling point in my view, over and above tool or model selection.

[Simon_Templar]

 Thanks for all your input, folks

Everything you say makes perfect sense, but the question remains: is it really inevitable that large pocket knives will go the way of the dodo? Couldn't Victorinox do more to interest the smartphone generation in a complementary analog tool? The new variety of Classics might be a step in the right direction, but I have yet to meet a kid which wasn't impressed by my 91 mm EDC. Problem is, oftentimes they have never seen a full size SAK before. 

When I was a kid,  Macgyver was on TV and SAKs where on display in department and convenience stores everywhere. You learned about them whether you wanted or not. My father didn't carry a pocket knife, but he didn't need to: upon discovering the Swisschamp in a shop window, I knew I needed one. Today this is not a given anymore and I for one believe Vic should therefore try to promote their SAKs more actively.

[comis]

Thanks for all your input, folks

Everything you say makes perfect sense, but the question remains: is it really inevitable that large pocket knives will go the way of the dodo? Couldn't Victorinox do more to interest the smartphone generation in a complementary analog tool? The new variety of Classics might be a step in the right direction, but I have yet to meet a kid which wasn't impressed by my 91 mm EDC. Problem is, oftentimes they have never seen a full size SAK before. 

When I was a kid,  Macgyver was on TV and SAKs where on display in department and convenience stores everywhere. You learned about them whether you wanted or not. My father didn't carry a pocket knife, but he didn't need to: upon discovering the Swisschamp in a shop window, I knew I needed one. Today this is not a given anymore and I for one believe Vic should therefore try to promote their SAKs more actively.

I doubt that very much.  Though laws around the world have been tighten in recent years, ironically the knife market remains pretty vibrant.  The 91mm SAK is as harmless as one could get as a mid size knife/tool, and if that has to go, many famous brands would have been gone along with it(Buck, Opinel, KAI, Boker, Benchmande, Spyderco, Cold Steel...)

Quite contrarily, I think we are now living in the Golden Age of knife collecting, so as long you dream it, you probably will find one online to match your fancy.

[Nix]

ironically the knife market remains pretty vibrant. 

   I can't believe how many knife options are now available. We now enjoy better manufacturing and materials than any time in history. Truly a "Golden Age" for knife enthusiasts.

I think Carl is right that Vic is following their market assessment. I think since 2001, Vic has seen its sales drop in some areas. While the consolidation is sad--especially that wonderful 74mm line!--I suspect that we'll have SAK options available for the foreseeable future.

[cbl51]

I doubt that very much.  Though laws around the world have been tighten in recent years, ironically the knife market remains pretty vibrant.  The 91mm SAK is as harmless as one could get as a mid size knife/tool, and if that has to go, many famous brands would have been gone along with it(Buck, Opinel, KAI, Boker, Benchmande, Spyderco, Cold Steel...)

Quite contrarily, I think we are now living in the Golden Age of knife collecting, so as long you dream it, you probably will find one online to match your fancy.

Yes, but the golden age is an artificially created market invented to stimulate the need for knives as weapons. The whole 'tactical' knife thing started in the late 1980's with companies like cold steel. Benchmade, Spyderco, and the like. It was a result of the knife companies making the so called 'traditional' knife went under, for lack of customers. There just was not that much demand anymore for a pocket knife to serve as a tool, but they created the knife as a weapon. They advertised fast one hand opening, showed it punched through a car door, (what that has to deal with in the real world I don't kw) and used phrases like 'de-animating enemy sentries". They paid for product placement in Hollywood action movies showing how a knife can save the day.

The pocket knife used to be a nail tool, but for the sake of sales, it was changed to a fast one hand weapon "in case someone gets on you." I see this phrase a lot on the general knife forums with the young guys taking about what tactical knife to buy for protection. And if you go back far enough, to the 1960's, the famous Buck 110 was pushed for that. In Iron Horse magazine in the late 1960's, the Buck knife was touted as the "official Bikers knife" for whatever you run into in the way of trouble. Charles Manson was a fan of them and equipped his 'family' with them for the butcher jobs they did on innocent victims.  By the late 1970's, more and more cities had passed local local bans on knives over 3 inches, knives with locking blades. The city of San Antonio passed a anti lockable knife laws because of the massive increase of knife assaults with the Buck 110.

The whole knife market  has become one of the newest, best super steel of the month in whatever military looking one hand wonder will make a good profit. It no longer has anything to do with the real world.

[Simon_Templar]

Quite contrarily, I think we are now living in the Golden Age of knife collecting, so as long you dream it, you probably will find one online to match your fancy.

Too bad I don't collect knives then - I just amass available SAKs. And I would so much like to be able to buy from Vic a Master Craftsman (with Shuttle Scales, of course), a Troubleshooter, a Gran Prix, a Woodsman, a Modeler, a... Or to witness the introduction of new tools like in the past the Cybertool driver, the Lite module or the AVT scales. Instead I am just happy I came in time to get myself all those nice SAKs which have been discontinued in the last two years...

[GearedForwards]

Yes, but the golden age is an artificially created market invented to stimulate the need for knives as weapons. The whole 'tactical' knife thing started in the late 1980's with companies like cold steel. Benchmade, Spyderco, and the like. It was a result of the knife companies making the so called 'traditional' knife went under, for lack of customers. There just was not that much demand anymore for a pocket knife to serve as a tool, but they created the knife as a weapon. They advertised fast one hand opening, showed it punched through a car door, (what that has to deal with in the real world I don't kw) and used phrases like 'de-animating enemy sentries". They paid for product placement in Hollywood action movies showing how a knife can save the day.

The pocket knife used to be a nail tool, but for the sake of sales, it was changed to a fast one hand weapon "in case someone gets on you." I see this phrase a lot on the general knife forums with the young guys taking about what tactical knife to buy for protection. And if you go back far enough, to the 1960's, the famous Buck 110 was pushed for that. In Iron Horse magazine in the late 1960's, the Buck knife was touted as the "official Bikers knife" for whatever you run into in the way of trouble. Charles Manson was a fan of them and equipped his 'family' with them for the butcher jobs they did on innocent victims.  By the late 1970's, more and more cities had passed local local bans on knives over 3 inches, knives with locking blades. The city of San Antonio passed a anti lockable knife laws because of the massive increase of knife assaults with the Buck 110.

The whole knife market  has become one of the newest, best super steel of the month in whatever military looking one hand wonder will make a good profit. It no longer has anything to do with the real world.

I feel the irresistable urge to say what a load of old smurf.

There is most certainly a weaponised contingent of the knife production and collection community, but you are greatly out of touch if you believe that weaponisation is the leading factor of what we are experiencing today.

Nail nicks on a pocket knife (not a crammed tool like a SAK) is sentimentality or legal appeasement. The ability to quickly and easily open a knife one handed is a convenience that benefits everyone that can legally take advantage of it. I own traditionals, they're neat, but they are just not as convenient a tool as a modern pocket knife.

The knife world moved on, pocket clips, one handed deployment and unlocking became the mainstay and knives as tools have thrived since.

The golden age we are experiencing is directly a result of improvements in manufacture, materials, globalisation, and social media. Knife collecting is thriving as a hobby largely since it is now both a communal and spectator sport and with Chinese OEMs the barrier to entry for budding makers to make larger runs is lower than ever.

There are knives aimed at the military and law enforcement, and probably rightfully so, I imagine if anyone has need of such designed knives it's people that could realistically experience close combat as part of their profession. By and large that marketing stays pointed towards those sectors nowdays with the one outlier being Cold Steel, which might not even keep doing the same ridiculous marketing now that they're owned by a corporation.

And if you seriously disagree with me here, jump on BladeHQ and start browsing.

Tell me if the majority of knives fall more into 'omg look tactical weaponz!' or glorified pocket jewelry, fidget toys, and utility tools.

For whatever it's worth I'm a knife collector well before I'm a SAK or MT collector and whilst not at its peak my chest currently holds examples from most major brands including a couple of knives at least that were acknowledged as having self defense intentions in design (which I bought because I liked how they looked, I'd rather make a sweaty fool of myself running than draw a knife) and do you know what one of the most stabby aggressive looking knives in my collection is?

Buck 110.

[SteveP]

I don't know about tactical knives vs. other knives, but I found it interesting that in the issue of the "Victorinox Swiss Army" newsletter email that I just received, the one paragraph in it was for Victorinox's BBQ collection and all of the featured links were for kitchen and cooking utensils.

So maybe they are no longer very innovative in SAKs in the face of a shrinking market and have decided to diversify?
 

[Altis]

I don't know about tactical knives vs. other knives, but I found it interesting that in the issue of the "Victorinox Swiss Army" newsletter email that I just received, the one paragraph in it was for Victorinox's BBQ collection and all of the featured links were for kitchen and cooking utensils.

So maybe they are no longer very innovative in SAKs in the face of a shrinking market and have decided to diversify?

They've been making kitchen cutlery, watches, and travel gear for some time, I believe.

I've had the same thoughts and questions as OP regarding Victorinox, but I'm not too concerned quite yet. I do wish they'd bring back the 84mm scissors, expand options, have a customized build shop (or at least certain models that can be had from time to time), more scale tool options, etc...

As for why demand could be down (if it is), there's definitely something to the idea that my (millennial) generation simply isn't as curious or motivated towards doing the kinds of things that can be done with a SAK. Even though I'm in engineering, I mostly see people who would rather replace than fix, and expect things to be done for them rather than do it themselves, and rarely have any consideration of how you might be suited to help others with tasks. It's a major shortcoming of my generation, in my opinion (and obviously it is not universal), and demonstrates a decline in morale and motivation. Then again, it isn't like parents are buying them for their kids, either as they never think of it or due to safety concerns, perhaps. I could speculate at length about this particular topic 

A lot of guys seem to prefer normal locking or fixed-blade knives. Bushcraft seems to be all the rage these days for those who venture into the outdoors... seems like every knife review is primarily a log-baton test. Victorinox could do well with some proper advertising to showcase the utility and quality, perhaps emphasizing being entirely made in Switzerland.

I also have no doubt that it looks dorky to some to be handy -- while I feel like MacGuyver when I save the day with my SAK, I no doubt look like Inspector Gadget instead. 

[Simon_Templar]

I also have no doubt that it looks dorky to some to be handy -- while I feel like MacGuyver when I save the day with my SAK, I no doubt look like Inspector Gadget instead. 

...or like Maxwell Smart in Get Smart (the movie). I believe that's a good thing though - the SAK is the analog equivalent/complement to a smartphone and Victorinox would be well advised to advertise it as such. The groundwork has all been laid, why don't they take advantage of that? Among its many other qualities, a SAK is also the perfect nerd's tool and I am sure many of use it and like it for just that.

"The thinking man's knife" - wouldn't that be about the perfect slogan? Victorinox, if you read this, you - and only you - may use that line free of charge if you finally get into advertising your SAKs.

[Rich S]

Slightly OT, but why can't Vic but a small needle nose pliers in place of the nearly useless pliers on the Deluxe Tinker?  Seems it would be more useful.
Rich

[Simon_Templar]

Slightly OT, but why can't Vic but a small needle nose pliers in place of the nearly useless pliers on the Deluxe Tinker?  Seems it would be more useful.
Rich

No way, I love Vic's pliers.They are way more universal than needle nose pliers. I wouldn't mind needle nose pliers as an additional tool in Vic's general arsenal though. They could then replace the pliers in certain speSmurfpillst SAKs, in particular the Cybertools, making those SAKs even more focused.

[Max Stone]

  Vic’s pliers are great for fine work, they’re now one of my favorite Vic tools. 

[SteveP]

A lot of guys seem to prefer normal locking or fixed-blade knives. Bushcraft seems to be all the rage these days for those who venture into the outdoors... seems like every knife review is primarily a log-baton test. Victorinox could do well with some proper advertising to showcase the utility and quality, perhaps emphasizing being entirely made in Switzerland.

Check out Felix Immler on YouTube. He's heavy into bushcraft and all he uses are SAKs. He's done some very creative stuff with them.

[SteveP]

+1 for the Vic pliers from me.

I just added them to an Explorer.   

I won't be doing construction with them, but for something between small pliers and big tweezers, they work great.

If you've got the current pliers, then you probably know you've got the wire cutter at the base of the jaws and the crimping tool below the jaws.

Unusual uses I've seen for the pliers:
- Pull out/push in hot oven racks if you don't have an oven mitt handy.
- At a camp fire, pick up a a hot pot lid or a hot pot (by clamping the rim).
- Stabilizing work base: Put small item in pliers jaws, then close pliers into SAK as far as possible.
- Turn them into "locking" pliers with a length of cord and short rod. Put a loop of cord around the handles. Put the rod in the loop. Twist the rod to tighten the cord. Wedge the rod against the SAK to hold it.

NikGyver on YouTube did a great video of uses of the pliers, including tying a SAK to a pole and using the pliers to retrieve out of reach items.

[Max Stone]

...retrieving things that slip down the side of the car seat... 

[Altis]

...retrieving things that slip down the side of the car seat... 

Often that is my SAK down there 

I suppose that's another reason one is none. 

[ThundahBeagle]

Growing up,every man a knew carried a pocket knife (no SAKs though).  We weren't supposed to take knives to school, but we did, and as long as you didn't do anything stupid teachers looked the other way.  As you say, it's a different world now.  Victorinox didn't start marketing other products because their knife business was booming.

Yes. But hell, practically every BOY had a knife of some kind. If you didnt have a little "jack knife" "pocket knife", "pen knife" or Swiss Army knife by the time you were 14, well what were you doing? Many of us had one well before that.

We weren't supposed to take knives to school either, but that seemed to mean big scary fixed blades. Nobody took their pocket knives out in class either, if they had them. It was for later, walking home from school. Today, in eastern Massachusetts, they actually promote a "Walk to School Day." WTF?!?! That was every day when I was a kid. Even when I moved from the Boston area to the Adirondacks, if you missed the bus, you were walking. If you stayed late, you were walking.

Victorinox took a very big hit in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks of 2001. Let's face it, the US alone is their biggest market as a single nation. And NYC is among our biggest cities. Never mind the national and international restrictions that went into place.

I feel Vic is reaching out by way of Cyber Tool and such, but by keeping the blade load out, they will alienate themselves from certain users. I worked with a 26 year old "kid" (I'm 51) in IT last year who said he is afraid of knives when I took my Huntsman out to open and break down some boxes. Afraid of knives. Ok? This kid, a really nice kid and hard worker, was actually afraid of a swiss army knife. So I handed it to him and let him use the little blade to open boxes. He gave it back after the 3rd box and picked up a spring loaded box cutter.

I understand Vic building all these other tools basically off the Spartan /Tinker and expanding from there but if they want to be relevant in the future, some Vic SAKs with just the little blade, no saw,  and more modern tool set will probably be required

[ThundahBeagle]

Vic%u2019s pliers are great for fine work, they%u2019re now one of my favorite Vic tools. 

I rather liked the Leatherman Squirt plyers better, but the Vic ones are OK too. The Squirt scissors suck, and the Vic ones are great, so I'd rather go with good plyers and scissors than great plyers and sh1tty scissors

[GearedForwards]

Yes. But hell, practically every BOY had a knife of some kind. If you didnt have a little "jack knife" "pocket knife", "pen knife" or Swiss Army knife by the time you were 14, well what were you doing? Many of us had one well before that.

We weren't supposed to take knives to school either, but that seemed to mean big scary fixed blades. Nobody took their pocket knives out in class either, if they had them. It was for later, walking home from school. Today, in eastern Massachusetts, they actually promote a "Walk to School Day." WTF?!?! That was every day when I was a kid. Even when I moved from the Boston area to the Adirondacks, if you missed the bus, you were walking. If you stayed late, you were walking.

Victorinox took a very big hit in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks of 2001. Let's face it, the US alone is their biggest market as a single nation. And NYC is among our biggest cities. Never mind the national and international restrictions that went into place.

I feel Vic is reaching out by way of Cyber Tool and such, but by keeping the blade load out, they will alienate themselves from certain users. I worked with a 26 year old "kid" (I'm 51) in IT last year who said he is afraid of knives when I took my Huntsman out to open and break down some boxes. Afraid of knives. Ok? This kid, a really nice kid and hard worker, was actually afraid of a swiss army knife. So I handed it to him and let him use the little blade to open boxes. He gave it back after the 3rd box and picked up a spring loaded box cutter.

I understand Vic building all these other tools basically off the Spartan /Tinker and expanding from there but if they want to be relevant in the future, some Vic SAKs with just the little blade, no saw,  and more modern tool set will probably be required

I'm 27 and had knives as a kid, my best friend even had what i believe was a knock off PST, or at least I hope it was a knock off the way we abused it. I get the sheeple thing though, being in the UK it's incredibly prevalent and I've seen people use their teeth, pens, keys etc. instead of just carrying a small knife to aid them. I always got comments for carrying a knife, some born of legal ignorance, but you know what? They always came to me at some point to borrow a blade.

I wouldn't mind seeing entirely bladeless models tbh, it's slim down the SAK when you're carrying a primary blade or Leatherman, or a good option for flying or no blade zones.

[ThundahBeagle]

Yep. And another guy in the same IT office would mock me for carrying a swiss army knife and a Leatherman. Said he never needed to carry anything like that. He was the first to put out an all-call in the office: " anyone have a little Philips head screwdriver..." and so on

[Altis]

I rather liked the Leatherman Squirt plyers better, but the Vic ones are OK too. The Squirt scissors suck, and the Vic ones are great, so I'd rather go with good plyers and scissors than great plyers and sh1tty scissors

I like the size of the Squirt and the blade on it is quite good, but I find the pliers quite difficult to manipulate and it has very little teeth to grip things. By contrast, the Victorinox pliers are very easy to manipulate since you hold the body in your hand and just use your thumbs to clamp it down, and the teeth are quite deep and sharp, great for gripping a hex nut.

[Altis]

Yep. And another guy in the same IT office would mock me for carrying a swiss army knife and a Leatherman. Said he never needed to carry anything like that. He was the first to put out an all-call in the office: " anyone have a little Philips head screwdriver..." and so on

I often get playfully teased for carrying the CyberTool M, but those same people also count on me having it when they can't find or don't have time to search for their tools.