Just about UK legal but not really suitable for carrying Spyderco UKPK

[Sea Monster]

"Again!" Then repeating the same thing,without refuting formal documentation is shouting

Nah, it's not really


I suspect, from my reading, that SurgeUK's "Again!" is not at anyone in particular, just that this issue continues to arise, like having to cut your toenails, or bin night, it's something that no matter how well resolved you think it is, it doesn't take long for it to reoccur as an issue.


I don't know about "Case law", and I'm not a UK resident, so I'm not sure how y'all do things.

In my neck of the woods, you could challenge the police decision in court...if the magistrate sided with the cops you'd have to appeal through a higher court.

FWIW, when I have a knife, I'll send the info through to the prohibited weapons department and get an email with their decision - that way later if johnny street-cop gets upset, I can provide (not on the spot, but at a later stage when people are not feeling personally challenged and temperamental), the email showing that not only was I good little citizen and asked first, but here's a decision from their policy department saying whether or not it is a prohibted weapon/controlled weapon/dangerous article (our variations on a theme of how likely the cops think something is)

Perhaps there is something similar in the UK, you can send the knife specs and an image, along with the copy of the relevant law you believe is applicable, and get in writing an interpretation that says whether or not it is legal.

[GearedForwards]

Lions do not concern themselves with the opinions of sheep! 

Except when travelling in London 

Ey up shag, consent's important with the woolie lasses, wait you said London, I shall return to my border. 

[GearedForwards]

As already been said here, the UKPK is legal to carry, but you can be done for a Classic if you're a knob with it. Just carry sensibly and with a bit of awareness of your surroundings and you'll be fine.

Source: Well, I did a law A-level does that count? But I also carried regularly whilst I was in the 'yob' age bracket and wearing hoodies. Never been stopped by a copper because I've never given them any reason to. Don't go brandishing it about, only use it when necessary, and if you do end up needing to speak to an officer, be polite and upfront for their own comfort/safety, whilst calmly stating that you are carrying within the bounds of UK law.

In our country the fear is bigger than the problem, for us sorts it's the fear we'll fall foul of the law for rightfully carrying something useful, but most of the time it's a fear based in nothing much more than fear itself.

At the end of the day it's just a legal tool, act like it and treat it as such and you'll (most likely) be just fine for the rest of your days.

[Ukleathermanfan]

Nah, it's not really


I suspect, from my reading, that SurgeUK's "Again!" is not at anyone in particular, just that this issue continues to arise, like having to cut your toenails, or bin night, it's something that no matter how well resolved

He already said his piece. Why would he reply saying the same thing again?
The police claim its not their decision but a new finding by the courts. Clearly not refuted by" I used to do this for a living"

[Magic Bus]

The law is clear and specific, the above taken from .gov website.

[Ukleathermanfan]

(Image removed from quote.)
The law is clear and specific, the above taken from .gov website.

You're aware that's already been posted?
The poster asked does it include the choil. That's where the debates at now. It's not clear to some people as surge uk messed up the legal blade length and is wrong about the choil part.

[Magic Bus]

You're aware that's already been posted?
The poster asked does it include the choil. That's where the debates at now. It's not clear to some people as surge uk messed up the legal blade length and is wrong about the choil part.

Of course. I repeated for emphasis only and it’s a moot point anyway since the total length of blade, including choil , in the case of the UKPK is under 3 inches anyways my friend 🙂. 

[Ukleathermanfan]

Of course. I repeated for emphasis only and it’s a moot point anyway since the total length of blade, including choil , in the case of the UKPK is under 3 inches anyways my friend 🙂.

You randomly out the blue reposted something for emphasis two day later?
It's was clearly a reply to me and was incorrect.

[pfrsantos]

Nah, it's not really


I suspect, from my reading, that SurgeUK's "Again!" is not at anyone in particular, just that this issue continues to arise, like having to cut your toenails, or bin night, it's something that no matter how well resolved you think it is, it doesn't take long for it to reoccur as an issue.


I don't know about "Case law", and I'm not a UK resident, so I'm not sure how y'all do things.

In my neck of the woods, you could challenge the police decision in court...if the magistrate sided with the cops you'd have to appeal through a higher court.

FWIW, when I have a knife, I'll send the info through to the prohibited weapons department and get an email with their decision - that way later if johnny street-cop gets upset, I can provide (not on the spot, but at a later stage when people are not feeling personally challenged and temperamental), the email showing that not only was I good little citizen and asked first, but here's a decision from their policy department saying whether or not it is a prohibted weapon/controlled weapon/dangerous article (our variations on a theme of how likely the cops think something is)

Perhaps there is something similar in the UK, you can send the knife specs and an image, along with the copy of the relevant law you believe is applicable, and get in writing an interpretation that says whether or not it is legal.

This seems like a good idea and the best way to go about this matter.

 

[charlie fox]

Wow! I'm fascinated by this discussion because I see it happening here in another generation or so, at least in the highly populated areas. I've always viewed items like the UKPK to be a silent protest; I can carry it because it meets the letter of the law. But I also see the other side - what's the intent? When I wore a badge I was pleased to be called a "Peace Officer" because our job was maintaining the peace. That all changed in the 90's when we became "Law Enforcement Officers" taking away a lot of officer discretion. I've seen the results; how many people were arrested and convicted in NYC for carrying a "gravity knife" just because the officer could flick the knife open by snapping their wrist (something that may have taken several times to do, by the way). An easy pinch - see a pocket clip, stop for probable cause, conduct a Terry frisk, remove the knife, flick the wrist...tada! Glad that one got overturned.

[pfrsantos]

Over here, the blade length is measured as in this pic:



This was told by a police officer, from the "weapons" division, on a lecture about knives one could carry or not and in what circumstances. Like I said, "over here". I have no idea what is considered "blade length" in the rest of Gaia.

[SurgeUk]

Well,

This has escalated quickly hasn't it 

@Ukleathermanfan; if you thought I was "shouting" at you then please accept my apologies.

I did say that the bold/italics etc were mine and I did so just to draw emphasis to some wording and nothing I said was directed at any individual.

The words quoted (not my personal comments) are a cut & paste from https://www.legislation.gov.uk

This is the resource that I was required to deal with when having conversations with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) when reporting someone for a suspected offence.

It is also the one I have to use now when doing the same, albeit not for carry, but about import/export offences at the border.

I am a reasonble person and don't seek to penalise people for innocent errors whilst doing my job (except GF. He should be prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law will allow  )

As an aside, but not entirely unrelated, I will be doing another GAW shortly and I will choose something that can be carried everywhere (notwithstanding awl the above) It will probably be run during April but, depending upon sourcing/work etc, could be May 

Stay safe out there people 

[Ukleathermanfan]

Well,

This has escalated quickly hasn't it 

@Ukleathermanfan; if you thought I was "shouting" at you then please accept my apologies.


Stay safe out there people 

Fair enough
As its your job you do know its 3" or below? Including 3"
Also, not that I'm saying the police are correct, but they have recently changed their guidance to say there has been a change in caselaw? Do you have any reason not to believe them?
General incompetent and bureaucracy not withstanding.

[chip]

It was recently ruled by a judge in court that it’s the lengh of the blade in its entirety not just the  sharpened section. I suppose because if stabbing, a six inch blade with only he first 3 inches sharpened  it would still go in 6 inches.

But as already said the ukpk’s entire blade is not over 3 inches so legal providing you do not use it as a weapon or threaten to do as much and use it as a tool.

If you have it out cutting something and a member of public challenges you, put it in your pocket before debating its legality as an irate person discussing the legality of there knife while holding it in there hand could be seen as threatenijg behavior..

Just don’t be a wally and you will be ok.

[Ukleathermanfan]

It was recently ruled by a judge in court that it’s the lengh of the blade in its entirety not just the  sharpened section. I suppose because if stabbing, a six inch blade with only he first 3 inches sharpened  it would still go in 6 inches.

But as already said the ukpk’s entire blade is not over 3 inches so legal providing you do not use it as a weapon or threaten to do as much and use it as a tool.

If you have it out cutting something and a member of public challenges you, put it in your pocket before debating its legality as an irate person discussing the legality of there knife while holding it in there hand could be seen as threatenijg behavior..

Just don’t be a wally and you will be ok.

Hi, do you happen to know the case name?

[chip]

No I don’t but it was a video posted by the black belt barrister that I saw this and he’s a barrister who did know.

[chip]

A Swiss card is technically breaking the law as it has a  fixed blade included.

I can walk down the street with a set of golf clubs I am not breaking the law. But if I use a five iron in a threatening manner it becomes a weapon and I am breaking the law.

Obey the law and don’t be a wally  and you need not fear the police.

[SurgeUk]

Fair enough
As its your job you do know its 3" or below? Including 3"
Also, not that I'm saying the police are correct, but they have recently changed their guidance to say there has been a change in caselaw? Do you have any reason not to believe them?
General incompetent and bureaucracy not withstanding.

I have not seen anything that would suggest that we should change our approach (I don't do the police thing anymore)

His Majesty's Government (HMG) has a number of policy depts (and many, many people within said depts  ) who decide upon such matters. Often these well intentioned people have little or no experience of the acutal job/funtion that they are deciding policy for.

So, whilst I "should" apply policy, I "must" enforce the law. Where the two meet then fine but, if there's a conflict, I ignore policy and enforce the law, as policy is just someone else's opinion, whereas the law is the law.

Many moons ago (during recruit training) we were in a law class and a guest speaker (who was a CPS lawyer) made it quite clear to us that a court of law considers 3 things;

1) Matter of law

2) Matter of fact

3) Matter of fact, in law

In other words, policy and guidance are all well and good but, only the law matters in a court and what policy has been adopted has no legal basis (even if it complies with the law, as written)

We have 43 territorial police forces in the UK (and a number of national/specialst ones) and whilst I have no reason to doubt that they may have been given some guidance in how to apply legislation I'd be interested to see what force has formally adopted a policy that contradicts the law of the land (therein lies a whole world of pain, litigation etc)

To answer your question about the 3" rule (law) my opinion (based upon my current and former roles) is that it is as the law states and relates to the "cutting edge" and if there is case law to say otherwise I have not seen it referenced.

Also, I forgot to say welcome to MTO 

[Ukleathermanfan]

Thank you.  Long time lurker.
Then a spear with only 3" sharp would be lawful. That doesn't sound right.
I think the confusion comes from cutting edge.
Cutting edge is the bit opposite the not cutting edge as apossed to the sharp part in plain English.
I'll have a nose and see if blackbeltbrief mentions and new caselaw

[chip]

https://youtu.be/cRN9fRCi4Q4?si=leUXgdU6U4u38ESv

[chip]

Remember a policeman will arrest you if he believes you are a wrongen up to no good.

The cps will charge you if they beleive there is sufficient to prove as much.

And the judge is only interested in law and will set you free whether he believes you are a wrongen or not based on the law.

This chap who got three months must of done something wrong as the courts in many cases aren’t even sentencing convicted criminals to prison who have been repeatedly caught in possession of illegal weapons..

[SurgeUk]

Remember a policeman will arrest you if he believes you are a wrongen up to no good.

The cps will charge you if they beleive there is sufficient to prove as much.

And the judge is only interested in law and will set you free whether he believes you are a wrongen or not based on the law.

This chap who got three months must of done something wrong as the courts in many cases aren’t even sentencing convicted criminals to prison who have been repeatedly caught in possession of illegal weapons..

It's an upwards scale/burden of proof (and should be)

Reasonable grounds to suspect  (Excuse me officer I saw him  with a knife) = search

Reasonable grounds to suspect potential offence (found "offensive" weapon) = arrest

Reasonable grounds to charge (CPS) = court appearance

Guilty (beyond reasonable doubt) = conviction

Not guilty (statutory defence/circs) = no conviction (possible civil case for malicious prosection & £££)

[Magic Bus]

You randomly out the blue reposted something for emphasis two day later?
It's was clearly a reply to me and was incorrect.

Wrong both counts buddy and try being a bit less sensitive.

[nate j]

I'm fascinated by this discussion because I see it happening here in another generation or so, at least in the highly populated areas.

It could certainly change, but overall I feel like things here in the US are moving in a positive direction for knife owners.  Some of the most draconian anti-knife laws in the country (e.g. NY gravity knife law, Philadelphia knife carry ban) have been litigated or legislated out of existence.  A number of states have enacted knife law preemption, repealed switchblade bans, etc.

[Ukleathermanfan]

Wrong both counts buddy and try being a bit less sensitive.

Explain yourself then
Why did you randomly post the same thing again?

[greenbear]

So this brings me back to the OP. The knife's supplier quoted the blade as being the sharpened length rather than the whole length of the blade.  This was confusing as the Spyderco Roadie, which they also sell (and I am a great fan of) was measured over the whole blade (I will make the point here that the supplier is of very high repute and have offered to take the knife back for full refund should I choose).

The chap who was prosecuted and jailed allegedly believed he was in legality as the sharpened area of the blade on his knife was under 3" however the blade and choil was greater. I know I am repeating myself here, but I am doing it for clarity.  But really this is the core issue, in that it seems the law is now being defined differently from its previous definition which we all understood to be the sharpened length.

The UKPK just scrapes in by about a millimetre, so very tight indeed.

[Ukleathermanfan]

Do you know this chaps name so I can have a search?

[Ukleathermanfan]

It seems you're assuming the cutting edge is the sharp bit and not the side of the blade that cuts as apposed to the other(top) half.
Do you have anything to support this?

[greenbear]

Do you know this chaps name so I can have a search?

No I don't and I wish I did. It is supposedly in the public domain though. I would really like to read the details of the case. My view is that "something" must have happened to engender the matter going to court. I have asked a friend with access to the police computer but he told me that he cannot search without "good reason" and my curiosity does not meet the requirements of his job 

You will find if you google it that there are literally dozens of people that have recently been convicted of "carrying" none of the reports have any real statistics on measurement and many are connected with drug stop and search incidents under operation Dieter, which is currently running against "Country Lines" gangs.

[SurgeUk]

So this brings me back to the OP. The knife's supplier quoted the blade as being the sharpened length rather than the whole length of the blade.  This was confusing as the Spyderco Roadie, which they also sell (and I am a great fan of) was measured over the whole blade (I will make the point here that the supplier is of very high repute and have offered to take the knife back for full refund should I choose).

The chap who was prosecuted and jailed allegedly believed he was in legality as the sharpened area of the blade on his knife was under 3" however the blade and choil was greater. I know I am repeating myself here, but I am doing it for clarity.  But really this is the core issue, in that it seems the law is now being defined differently from its previous definition which we all understood to be the sharpened length.

The UKPK just scrapes in by about a millimetre, so very tight indeed.

I think this is very much the issue at hand.

The UKPK is legal. Period!

What we don't know (so far) is the name of the case (i.e. Crown vs Smith 2024 etc)

If we did know then we could read the full sentencing report and the circs of the actual case. All we have so far is people giving anecdotal evidence* of that which they have heard reported by third parties (possibly the aggrieved)

*well intentioned (no disparaging implications)