Police shot 14year old burglar today

[Woz]

In Austria, tonight a 14 yo boy was shot by the police, his 16 yo mate wounded. They broke into a supermarket and the officers who joined the scene said the boys attacked them with a screwdriver and an axe - so the police shot. In self defense, they say. The boys were masked, no chance for the cops to realize they´re minors in the dark. Both boys turned out to be well known by the authorities for being criminal and members of right-wing activist group. Neo-Nazi.

Here in Austria cops or correction officers are hardly allowed to use any potentially deadly weapons. Tasers are just handed to some special trained officers, who are only allowed to use it under very special circumstances, close to impossible ever to get there. So Taser guns are useless here. The Glock 17 service weapon is part of every LEOs EDC, so without Taser or something similar the gun is the only longer range defense weapon, pepper spray and a baton completing the EDC. I think if I´m attacked by somebody masked with an axe I would shoot him too - for my live is in danger. But our weapon-hating liberal press just reports in favour of the boys, making the cops look like Rambo-esk killer machines who love to kill children. It just sucks! Criminals are treated better than the LEOs here, everytime a cop uses any kind of weapon he has to answer the court, and most often he will be sentenced for inappropriate use of the gun - for there seems to be no approbriate use here. I would not like to see US American scenes where (some, very few) cops tend to shoot to fast for, but I really think IF a cop has to defend his life he should be able to do that without risking his job, freedom or financial security (for he can be sentenced to pay to the dead guys family).

I write this for there is an interesting question being discussed here now.

What do you guys think:

Is there any excuse to kill a 14-year old boy if he is like I explained above? Can it be that the officer was right to shot? What would you do?

Here´s English language links to reports:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Teenager-Shot-After-Breaking-Into-Austrian-Supermarket/Article/200908115354721
http://austriantimes.at/?id=15311&print=1

[cliosguy]

a guy in mask runing to me with an axe...you pretty much only have time to listen to your instincts, insnt?

[AHB]

From my point of view, they had every right to defend themselves... But tragic anyway.. 

[nuphoria]

I'm afraid I would have shot them in that situation too. If someone is committing a crime and is coming at me with any kind of weapon, I reserve the right to defend myself by any means. It's a shame that they were minors, but that doesn't excuse the abhorrent behaviour they chose to engage in.

A LEOs job is hard enough without having to answer to the court for every decision they make. It is of course acceptable and favourable to have a force which is under scrutiny where weapons are used and lives lost, but there's a limit as to what can be expected of people dealing with criminals and putting their own lives at risk for our safety. Would you have made a better judgement call?  

That's just my tuppence.

[Anthony]

If the officer had a hatchet lodged in his chest and a screwdriver in his eye and then shot his gun, he'd still be "wrong" sadly.

Black is white and up is down.

[Freudian Frog]

Tragic? The boys were idiots... they'd just grow up to be 20 year olds with a mask and axe...

If anyone swings an axe at you they've earned the right to be shot.

[Gareth]

Without knowing all the facts (and only those who were there know all the facts) it's tricky to tell.  What i will say is this; what is the point in training and arming your police if you then don't trust their judgment when they find themselves in a dangerous situation?  Do we really want the police officers decisions to be based on whether they are likely to end up in trouble for their actions?  Or (correctly IMO) based on their long years of training, judgment and experience to act in a way that is appropriate to the situation in front of them?

Lets be honest Police can make mistakes, they are human.  But you can't put them in the position that they second guess themselves every time they have to make a difficult choice.

[AHB]

Tragic? The boys were idiots... they'd just grow up to be 20 year olds with a mask and axe...

If anyone swings an axe at you they've earned the right to be shot.

What about the officers, who's gonna live with this on their conscience the rest of their lifes...
I think that's tragic..

[american lockpicker]

Seeing that the boys were Nazis I think the policemen that shot them should both be given medals.   

[2xTap]

Woz,

You ain't alone.....our media is the same way here. And we got "feel-good" organizations in our country that abhor any type of violence regardless of reason, and if given a chance will crucify any law-abiding citizen or Cop for using deadly force.

Luckily, here in the USA many States have laws on the books that protect citizens when they are forced to use deadly force. Particularly in one's place of business or home.

It's hard for me to take such things as I am very biased in this, having been a Correctional Officer before, and currently working in the Security field.......I've seen my fare share of Humanity's Worst. I've long been a proponent of the use of Force, within reason, and as far as I'm concerned when any individual takes it upon themselves to commit a felonous act they are taking their lives into their own hands.

A 14 year old with a screwdriver can kill you just as easily as a 21 year old with a screwdriver. Age is a moot point. But it's easy for people to "Arm-Chair" what is right and wrong when they have never been in a situation where their life is at stake. I can spend hours on this subject and recall all kinds of incidents like this one above......both civilian and military. It's why I don't watch broadcast news, or read newspapers.

2xTap

[Pacu]

Seeing that the boys were Nazis I think the policemen that shot them should both be given medals.   

Loser  self proclaimed Nazis...not to be mistaken for regular WW2 era Nazis. But i won't go too far on that.

[sappyg]

it's a shame that LEO's take the kind of abuse they go through before, during, and after duty.
the alledged fact that the suspects were nazi is irrellevant. age is not the issue either. that they (youths), alledgedly displayed a desire to use deadly force is the issue and nothing else.
without knowing all of the facts it is hard to comment. i do however, appreciate the fact that the LEO's were ready, able and willing to defend themselves and others by any and all means necessary. don't punish a cop b/c stupid people do stupid things. sooner or later even stupid people have to take responsibility for being stupid.... ya know?

[jzmtl]

What do you guys think:

Is there any excuse to kill a 14-year old boy if he is like I explained above? Can it be that the officer was right to shot? What would you do?

Absolutely, even if I know it's a 14 year old I'd shoot him, and I think the cop should too.

Trust me, it's a good thing your cops don't have tasers. We have a lot of tasers here, it's sold to public as an "alternative to deadly force", but really every cop use it as "I don't wanna get my hands dirty, better taser the guy first".

[ducktapehero]

IMHO they should bill the family for the cost of the bullets.

[duckman1975]

IMHO they should bill the family for the cost of the bullets.

A very big AMEN to that DTC!
My heart goes out to the Police Officer  I know they have a slim chance of reading this but if ever they did: "Hang in there you did nothing wrong, keep up the good work, stay safe and thanks for making the community safe."

[PyroJames]

Shooting the 14 year old was perfectly justified.  The young burglar tried to attack the police officer with AN AXE.  That boy wasn't coming towards the officer offering to chop firewood with that axe, that's for sure.  It was purely a self-defence situation and the officer did the right thing.

[sappyg]

IMHO they should bill the family for the cost of the bullets.

with the cost of bullets these days that could be a handsome sum.

[cgk]

It is tragic but it sounds like the boys left no alternative.  Kids can be dangerous, look at the age of the mass school murderers over here.  In my own department we handled a ten year old that shot dad in the head with a shotgun (DOA of course).

[american lockpicker]

IMHO they should bill the family for the cost of the bullets.

+1

[yud]

I agree weather it is a retarted 5 year old or a 105 year old you need the right to defend yourself.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

It's sad that a young life has been taken But at 14 you know the difference between right and wrong

It's the poor copper's I feel sorry for, that's a hell of a thing to have to live with

[max6166]

Is there a link with more info? The links in the first post only say that the 14 year old was carrying a screwdriver and a garden hoe. It doesn't mention an axe and says that they haven't determined whether the officers were attacked by the boys or not.

[Nikos]

We had a similar incident last December here and it went off in serious riots and major damage to both public and private property in downtown Athens. I'm for LEOs using their guns -- they were trained to do so anyway -- but there's a striking difference (no pun intended) between a bullet in the chest and a bullet in the leg. Unfortunately, when under attack, you don't have the time to think and only act instinctively... Tragic both ways...

[Whoey]

In the spur of the moment a bullet in the leg is not that easy, whereas a bullet in the chest is much easier/guaranteed to hit...

Sadly the officers will be blamed for "shooting first, asking questions later" whereas they were doing what they had to protect themselves and the public in the situation. Keep in mind those officers will also have to carry the burden of knowing they shot and killed a 14 year old kid for the rest of their life, neo-nazi, stupid or otherwise it's still a kid...

It's very easy to sit back and criticize their actions after the fact... knowing they were just kids, it was dark, they were wearing masks, and they were robbing the store... the police don't have psychic machines to tell them all these facts or if they're carrying other weapons...

[cgk]

We had a similar incident last December here and it went off in serious riots and major damage to both public and private property in downtown Athens. I'm for LEOs using their guns -- they were trained to do so anyway -- but there's a striking difference (no pun intended) between a bullet in the chest and a bullet in the leg. Unfortunately, when under attack, you don't have the time to think and only act instinctively... Tragic both ways...

Unfortunately officers can not afford to take a leg shot.  In most encounters the bad guy is moving making legs and arms very difficult areas to hit, the most stationary target is the torso.  More importantly the reason for shooting is to stop the threat NOW.  Hits to arms and legs may hurt, may cause permanent damage, and may even eventually kill.  None of those outcomes; however, do much to stop the threat NOW.  Officers have to shoot to stop the threat as soon as possible.  An officer that gambles on a leg shot is risking his life, the lives of his partners and any innocents in the area.    

[Nikos]

We had a similar incident last December here and it went off in serious riots and major damage to both public and private property in downtown Athens. I'm for LEOs using their guns -- they were trained to do so anyway -- but there's a striking difference (no pun intended) between a bullet in the chest and a bullet in the leg. Unfortunately, when under attack, you don't have the time to think and only act instinctively... Tragic both ways...

Unfortunately officers can not afford to take a leg shot.  In most encounters the bad guy is moving making legs and arms very difficult areas to hit, the most stationary target is the torso.  More importantly the reason for shooting is to stop the threat NOW.  Hits to arms and legs may hurt, may cause permanent damage, and may even eventually kill.  None of those outcomes; however, do much to stop the threat NOW.  Officers have to shoot to stop the threat as soon as possible.  An officer that gambles on a leg shot is risking his life, the lives of his partners and any innocents in the area.     

My thoughts exactly.

[sardauker]

Darwin would be proud.

[appletree_man]

But our weapon-hating liberal press just reports in favour of the boys, making the cops look like Rambo-esk killer machines who love to kill children.

That seems to be common to to everywhere right now. The press love to stir the s**t.